Learned a lesson tonight

Pax is busy and may not have had time to respond. Stay calm and stay respectful.
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First of all, you're not a mod. It's not your place to tell me what to do.

Second, where was I not calm or disrespectful? Questioning what I see as questionable advice or commentary, staff member or not, is not disrespectful.

Third, she had plenty of time to come into the thread and it's been two days.

Did you try to use any other form of defense? Was there a great disapirity in the physical abilities of you and the agressor? Did he have a weapon? Was he capable of fufilling his threat? Is your physical conditioning so much better that you should have been able to stop the fight by detaining the attacker? Did you try to retreat from the scene? Did you try to verbally deescelate the situation? Could your actions have been reasonably seen as provocation?
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If you have been reading all the posts you would know that most of these questions have been discussed according to the information provided and then expanded upon by the OP- that would be questions 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8 above. All clarified previously.

Regarding your 5th question- I am not obligated to detain someone who is attacking me, regardless of my physical conditioning. That is absurd.
 
my $.02 and a question

What he did was absolutely the right thing to do. Especially with his child in tow. Protecting your child is the first obligation. What would have happened to the child had he decided to stand up to the noisemaker? What if he would have had to scuffle with the guy? What if he decided to shoot this a-hole? All with his child witnessing. How are you gonna protect your child if things went bad? He diffused the situation. Well played sir.

Now then...this is the reason all my vehicles have a collapsable baton within reach of the driver. Some times I carry it. It's about the size and weight of a roll of quarters when it's not extended. About 2ft long extended. And can turn the bad guys lights out.

One of the first things I was taught in my CC class was not to escalate the threat with your own. If the guy's just yelling and being a jack@$$. Good for him, he's a tough guy. Big deal. If he brings fist...you can to. Now if he jumps it up a notch, then you can defend yourself with your weapon. Anything else, a jury will see it as you now becoming the aggressor and a wild man with a gun too ready to kill an unarmed man.

The world is quickly turning into those who see certain aspects of society as it is...dangerous, and those that think the world is nothing but rainbows and butterflies.

Who's going to be on the jury?
 
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"" It is a question that requires some thought. In such a situation, there is not time for deliberation. I have given it much thought, and come to a conclusion......

..... I choose Life. ""

For about the next 15 minutes until the BG: strangles you, cuts you or pulls a gun and shoots... . . .
 
I'm not sure AH74, but maybe mikenice meant draw with possibly not firing as "detain"?

still a good thread - my thing is there are many scenarios when you can fire at the crazed luney charging with fists. that being said, if I 'think' the man is just mouthing off(key phrase: 'if I think') than I am not going to fire or even draw just because he is a hothead and yelled: "I'll effin kill you" as an example.

If I felt it was necessary, I wouldn't hesitate to defend myself and fighting the guy isn't one of the options I would choose.

on a side note: this thread the last two days has made me think that maybe scebarios like this is partially why college campus carry is prohibited and/or also on military bases? I may be way off, but fistfights seem to happen more here and some CCW might just draw instead of gettin his butt kicked:D
 
If you have been reading all the posts you would know that most of these questions have been discussed according to the information provided and then expanded upon by the OP-
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You said:
I do not plan on getting into a fistfight, I do not want to meet the force. Why would I do that? I have not done anything to instigate, other than in the aggressor's mind.
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You made it about you and not the OP. So, don't play the troll game of, "if you had read."

I was listing many of the questions you would have to answer when you decided to shoot instead of "meet the force." Obviously you have it in your mind that defense defaults to gun if somebody threatens you. If you want to do that, fine. Just realize the possible problems you are starting for yourself.

For me, I chose to stay in shape, train, and provide myself with options. For me a gun is the last option and not the first. I've had people threaten to do all kinds of things. More often than not they never followed through. A few tried and found out it was a waste of time. More often than not I just found a way to avoid things.

I learned a long time back that most guys making threats are covering up for their own fear. They are like tea cup pups. They bark real loud hoping you'll back down so they can feel big.

If you have too, grab your kid, get behind the wheel, and go. When you get a safe distance pull over, call the cops, and when they arrive explain everything while filing a report.

Regarding your 5th question- I am not obligated to detain someone who is attacking me, regardless of my physical conditioning. That is absurd.
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You are not obligated to do anything at all. However, a good old fashion chicken wing untill the cops get there is an option. I did it to a guy that was beating on my cousin. He threatened to kill her and her son. Instead of shooting him dead I wrapped him up and subdued him untill the cops arrived. He didn't have a weapon and there was not a big disparity of force. So, I took a less than lethal approach.

You can also detain with your weapon. It is actually allowed under law in many states. How long and why varies from state to state. If you pull and tell them to stop and they do, it has become a detainment situation unless they run. If they run you should do the same. Get to a safe distance (or place) and call it in.

Again, defense does not default to gun. Threatening language does not always mean the person has the ability to complete the threat. If a 60 year old 5'4" 100lb lady screams, "I'll kill you" and starts smacking you empty handed are you going to shoot her?

I know that is an extreme example, but we must realize that not every threatening person has the ability to follow through or can stop you from escaping.

Oh, and yeah I have had to use a gun for defense three times. I never shot, but each time I was justified and never charged. I've lived through real life experiences. I'm not just discussing hypotheticals. I've been there and been told that what I did was proper. I also work for a police department and get to pick the brains of guys that investigate these things.

I offer advice based on real life. I don't consider myself an expert. I consider myself a guy with enough experience and knowledge that people might want to listen and consider what I say. Otherwise I would lurk and leave these threads alone.
 
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MikeNice- I don't consider myself an expert either, and it is unfortunate that you have assumed based on simple arguments that I consider the gun as a first option. I assuredly do not. It is a last option. I am only arguing based upon information provided in this thread, I have brought none of my own variables into play to support my argument. I don't play that way unlike some of our other participants. I am also no troll, look at my post count and how long I've been a member. I don't post to troll, I choose my subjects selectively and post sparingly.

I have also, unfortunately, been there and done that. I have also lived it, in the real world. Two years ago I had a situation, the state police were involved and I also was told I had acted accordingly. I was not charged, the other person was. It is not something I ever wish to experience again, nor would I wish it on anyone else.

You are not the only one who thinks they have knowledge and experience and that others should pay attention to what they say. I don't do this to have people "look at me," I participate to learn and engage in intelligent discussions. I am not here to justify myself to anyone.
 
Ankle holsters always seemed like bad idea to me. They are difficult to get to if you need it in a hurry.
I do not open carry.
My BUG pistol is in my left front pocket or IWB at about the 4 o'clock position on my left side. My primary is OWB on the right side.
 
pax wrote:

An angry person shouting threats as in the OP (especially if they are saying they will kill me as the case has become) and advancing toward me with raised fists has me in reasonable suspicion of being in danger of great bodily harm.
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No.

You might have such a fear.

But it is not a reasonable fear.
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I happen to think it is if there is disparity, such as size, age, physical condition, number of folks involved for example.

Do you really think a disabled old man's fear in such a situation is unreasonable ?
 
Posted by Hook686: I happen to think it is [a reasonable fear] if there is disparity, such as size, age, physical condition, number of folks involved for example.
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You are correct in your characterization of the disparity of force argument. However, that's usually a tough defense with which to prevail.

That's the "A" of A, O, J, P" and it is not clear cut.

Regarding the "J", verbal threats very rarely cut it.

And finally, regarding "P", what were the alternatives?
 
Man, rude people suck and that guy was a bit rude.

Had a similiar event last fall, I was at a red light when it turned green I went into the intersection and a car did not stop, I hit it and wrecked it completly. My truck wasnt hurt cept for the lisence bracket. The kid was in his cousins car, so cousin and his Dad show up, cousin wants my information, my policy numbers etc. I asked them to dial up 911 all 3 had a cell, none would dial, they got aggressive, I told that kid Iwas gonna kick his rear end, then his cousin then his dad then everyone he knows. He got right up into my face kid had his cell camera running waiting for me to hit the cousin. So I told them wait here and walked the parking lot to the store to call 911. They beat feet outta there. So I think they wanted me to get into them so they could call the law and get me in trouble.

I told that kid his boy was at fault and I would only give my info to a cop which they refused to call.
 
I carry my BUG in my rt back pocket, and it's easy to get to. Normally I carry it along with a 3" .45 ACP 1911, OWB@3:30, but if for some reason the primary is not on me, the pocket gun always is. First rule of a gunfight and all....These days, it seems, like you, I find people are getting progressively uglier, so I rarely have just one on me anymore. When I am with the handicapped wife, any crappy contact like your incident, is handled much the same way, but it really sticks in my craw because it seems to only embolden punks into thinking everybody is a pushover to them. Getting slapped down is the only thing that makes them think otherwise. I've not done that since I've carried a gun, and try to spend the time de-escalating those situations, rather than worry about when to pull my firearm. I'm hoping to move out of here before ever having "that incident."
 
Ankle holsters have their place, but not for your only gun. Had a friend that was ambushed and almost died (Shot 3 times) because his off duty gun was a snubby 38 in an ankle holster.

I use one for a rotating BUG.
 
I've never used an ankle holster; my favorite carry position is pocket, and here's why ... there's no other carry method I can think of where you can have your hand ON your weapon as you go about your business with nobody the wiser ... If you had needed your gun -- and I'm very glad you didn't -- wouldn't it have been reassuring to have your hand on it while you held your daughter in a safe position with the other? Practice pocket drawing until it's smooth and natural, you will isntantly have a big advantage over someone who has to draw from a belt holster, IWB or OWB, and a night-and-day advantage over ankle carry.
 
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