Israeli Carry
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Frank Ettin
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btmj said:
This topic has nothing to do with the Second Amendment or rights. It has to do with skills, proficiency and technique.Catfishman said:
One may be free to carry [legally] his gun however he likes. But this discussion offers additional information to those who are concerned with improving their preparedness and better understanding the effective use of their sidearm in self defense.
When I was in the Marines I was stationed in a Marine Detachment on board an aircraft carrier. This was in 1968 and we were off the coast of North Vietnam. One of our jobs was security of nuclear wepons, we had 4 posts to guard. Our weapon was a 1911a1 gov't model, at least 30 to 35 yrs old and we were made to carry it with an empty chamber and 5 rounds in the mag. We would have had to use the piece as a hammer to defend the post, also carried it in a spit shined holster. What a joke.
Except for 1 in a 1,000,000 cases, a gun can not fire unless you pull the trigger.
The likelihood of a a gun firing in a holster that covers the trigger guard with proper retention is equal to the likelihood of a gun firing with an empty chamber.
All things being equal, why would you place yourself at a disadvantage?
It really isn't a big deal though. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I am sure that those who adamantly practice Israeli carry aren't THAT much slower than those who don't.
How much ~ 1 second may matter to you is at your discretion.
The likelihood of a a gun firing in a holster that covers the trigger guard with proper retention is equal to the likelihood of a gun firing with an empty chamber.
All things being equal, why would you place yourself at a disadvantage?
It really isn't a big deal though. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I am sure that those who adamantly practice Israeli carry aren't THAT much slower than those who don't.
How much ~ 1 second may matter to you is at your discretion.
Nakanokalronin
New member
Well, some people are trying to get the fact across that C3 is not a readied position. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone carrying condition three. I'm trying to get the point across that racking the slide is not always an option and that it can be a deciding factor weather someone may be able to use their defense carry gun or not. In condition 1, there is one less step. Anything that takes an extra step over another equally safe method will always be slower and possibly negate the action all together.
If someone is scared of C1, then buy a gun with a firing pin/striker safety. No way will it go off as long as it is in a proper holster and a finger does not pull the trigger. That's basic knowledge that is taught at a beginners level of firearms handling. It dosn't require high intensity training to achieve it or ingrain it like second nature. If your going to carry a firearm for defense as a responsible citizen, then be responsible enough to get the training required to properly handle and carry that firearm. Every vehicle license I've obtained required proper training, any large machinery I have worked on required proper training, any new job required proper training and being able to properly handle a firearm and have it in a readied condition required proper training. Everyone is acting like the requirements for handling a loaded weapon takes years and years of S.W.A.T. style training to be able to implement it. It's the first thing you learn and it can be achieved at a class and practiced at home.
Anyone could practice keeping their finger off the trigger, drawing, flicking off the safety if there is one, point and shoot with snap caps in their own home. I did this when I first started carrying. I carry a 1911 or similar style handgun configuration, so I carried it at home in my holster, snap cap in the chamber, safety off. I then purposely bumped that thing into all sorts stuff and ran things across the point were the trigger was to see if anything would release the hammer, but nothing ever did. I ran up and down stairs, jumped in place and even laid on it to see if I could make it release.....nope. It made me feel a lot better knowing that if I couldn't get the hammer to drop on it's own with the manual safety off, then having it on would be that much better. I also study the internal workings of any gun I own and some I don't. This give you an idea of how much is involved to make a gun fire which can also give you an idea of how safe it is.
I posted the videos in my previous post to show a little about C3 and its disadvantages.It's not about a second or half a second difference, but the ability or inability to rack the slide at all. I'm not disrespecting someone carrying C3, but I'm trying to explain how being more prepared in C1 can be a life saver while having no disadvantages.
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Their are incidents of people shooting themselves carrying with a round in the chamber. I am sure before the incidents if they where on this site would be preaching that con-1 is the only way to go. And how someone that chooses to carry some other way needs more training is scared or shouldn't be carrying.
They might think differently after shooting them selves.
They might think differently after shooting them selves.
Sparks1957
New member
Well stated. People make choices, sometimes they make poor ones. The answer is education through message boards like this.
Sure, it happens. But in almost ALL cases of it happening, the cause is not that there's simply a round in the chamber. The cause is violation in some way of the principles of safety.
Finger off trigger, person doesn't get shot.
Point in safe direction, person doesn't get shot.
Exercise more awareness while holstering, person doesn't get shot.
Nakanokalronin
New member
Worn out or cheap gear, broken parts or finger on the trigger are the only ways a gun is going to go off in a holster or while holstering. It increases more when the only thing is a trigger pull like a Glock as suppose to a 1911 with a grip and thumb safety.
If your walking around and your gun just goes off on it's own in a proper holster, there is something wrong with either the gun, the gear or the person telling the story that didn't want to admit they mishandled a loaded weapon.
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Late to the party as usual (so what's new?) but I've been thinking about this and one thing comes to mind. I keep seeing regularly the 1911 mentioned and the preferred carry is cocked and locked. The general consensus is also carry 1 in the chamber for every type of gun. But now consider this, many of the popular striker fired pistols partially cock the striker and have a fairly light trigger pull. IMO these guns come closer to an SA action than DAO. It essentially makes them like a 1911 but without a safety. No here's my question ... would you carry your 1911 cocked with safety off with a loaded round in the chamber? If so, then go ahead and recommend to carry on a loaded round but if you wouldn't (I wouldn't) then my recommendation is if you have a striker with with a lighter trigger pull, carry loaded chamber with the external safety on, if there is no safety, then I have to believe empty chamber would be better for most (actually a different gun is my real recommendation). Training helps to prevent accidents but, it is impossible to eliminate them. To think you can is foolish. I carry loaded chamber but it's on a DA/SA hammer fired gun and that 1st trigger pull, you better mean business if you want it to go bang.
Glocks in stock configuration do not have a fairly light trigger pull. Once the initial take-up is done, there is actually a hard "wall" that takes a strong, deliberate pull to get through. It's certainly not light.
When I was considering Glocks I did what was mentioned by one poster above- I played with the trigger a lot. I brushed it, poked it, swept it from the side, all trying to get it to go off. It won't without a deliberate pull from the front.
You would have to have something caught in the trigger guard, depressing the safety trigger-switch, and then pull through that wall I mentioned, in order to have an ND with a Glock.
When I was considering Glocks I did what was mentioned by one poster above- I played with the trigger a lot. I brushed it, poked it, swept it from the side, all trying to get it to go off. It won't without a deliberate pull from the front.
You would have to have something caught in the trigger guard, depressing the safety trigger-switch, and then pull through that wall I mentioned, in order to have an ND with a Glock.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Lower your opinion of this staff member but I hate this topic. There is nothing more to be said that will convince people.
My personal take:
1. Unchambered - if you are scared of your gun, don't carry it.
2. In a critical incident, if a hand is immobilized through injury or need to operate something or hold a kid, etc. - you are out of luck.
3. I am well acquainted with one handed techniques having taken training in such with my dominant wrist broken and arm in a cast. Did it all weak hand. I cleverly broke my wrist and ribs to get ready for the class.
4. Flashlights - you may have to deploy a flashlight quicky - did it at Givens' conference recently. So you have to mess with the gun and then get the light - time flies. Don't tell me that you don't carry batteries in your light as you don't want to accidentally blind someone.
But I go back to #1. I have little tolerance for folks who can't handle reasonable equipment - get such and train.
My personal take:
1. Unchambered - if you are scared of your gun, don't carry it.
2. In a critical incident, if a hand is immobilized through injury or need to operate something or hold a kid, etc. - you are out of luck.
3. I am well acquainted with one handed techniques having taken training in such with my dominant wrist broken and arm in a cast. Did it all weak hand. I cleverly broke my wrist and ribs to get ready for the class.
4. Flashlights - you may have to deploy a flashlight quicky - did it at Givens' conference recently. So you have to mess with the gun and then get the light - time flies. Don't tell me that you don't carry batteries in your light as you don't want to accidentally blind someone.
But I go back to #1. I have little tolerance for folks who can't handle reasonable equipment - get such and train.
Crow Hunter
New member
I keep seeing people post something that I don't understand, and maybe it is because of my experience/point of view.
How does a trigger get pulled while it is in the holster? Even if it has a very light trigger and no safety, assuming it is mechanically sound, how can the trigger get pulled?
With every holster that I have, the trigger isn't accessible without drawing the weapon. If someone is worried about accidently pulling the trigger while drawing, you have the same opportunity for a ND while racking the slide as well if you have your finger on the trigger.
Inertial firing isn't possible on most modern designs in good working order. The Glock is the one that I have the most experience with and there are 3 mechanical safeties that prevent the striker from impacting the primer of a chambered round on top of the fact that the striker isn't at full cock.
Am I missing something?
Edumakate me.
GlockedNLoded32
New member
My CC Firearm is a Glock 32 .357 with work done to the trigger I have polished the internals on the trigger as well as replaced the disconnector with a ghost 3.5 lb and i carry condition 1 and i can decompress the trigger safety and I still have a hard 3.5 trigger pull before i am able to fire my weapon. everyone who carries has there own opinion on how they want to carry and what makes them feel comfortable. we shouldn't talk down to fellow ccw holders because of the way they carry weather its condition 3 or condition 1 its ultimately their decision and we should just be able to have a civil conversation in the thread thats my opinion some may agree with me others may not thats whats great about having the freedom to express ourselves
Nakanokalronin
New member
A single action gun like a 1911 has a much shorter trigger pull over a Glock. The thumb safety blocks the sear which locks the hammer, just like the striker block, locks the striker on a Glock. I sure wouldn't disable the striker block on a Glock nor a thumb safety on a 1911. Your also comparing two different platforms that work in 2 different ways.
That being said, I've carried Glocks in condition 1, no problem. You have to be extra cautious with the condition of your worn out gear when a gun has nothing but a tab on the trigger since the ledge of a holster or strap can get caught inside and pull the trigger. This does not make it an unsafe firearm, but if someone feels that it is, choose something else.....there are more then enough options out there.
As for all those "accidents" with Glocks? I've seen the worn out holster that pulled the trigger, I've seen the dumb DEA agent pulling the trigger and many others that do the same. This is why I find it strange that people suggest Glock as a first firearm. Until you can keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire and you treat every gun like it's loaded, stay away from guns with trigger safeties like Glocks, XDs,M&Ps and the like.They're perfectly safe firearms as long as you use the safety between your ears.
It can't unless its a VERY poorly designed holster. If someone says otherwise, it was more then likely an ND. I remember reading in the paper how a CCW holder was sitting on the toilet and his gun just went off on it's own.....well that's how he explained it. My guess is that he was playing with his gun while using the bathroom and pulled the trigger resulting in an ND. Of course he'll never admit it just like many others don't, which results in people reading such false incidents and creates more C3 carriers who will point out the story as so called proof . Guns don't just go off by themselves.
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My thoughts.
I think it is really worth noting that the Israeli method was not developed to be the end-all be-all of concealed carry/defensive pistol techniques. It came about, as explained to me by an Israeli, because of a plethora of difference pistol types with different controls. With this technique there is no question of "Gee, does the safety need to go up or down in order to fire? Why won't it go down? Oh,it is on the slide and needs to go up. Damn, I'm dead." It is a greatly simplified matter. Draw pistol, rack slide, shoot.
The other point I believe is worth stressing is that this in NOT a development for concealed carry safety in the civilian world. They were not envisioning all of these scenarios with one handed child carrying or being accosted by muggers. This was for real COMBAT. For responding to a gunman or terrorist. For use in actual war. This is not to remove the considerations for one hand use or previous injury, but to illustrate that the quick draw and getting the first round on target as fast as humanly possible was not the highest priority. These things rarely happen in full scale gunfights and are more commonly seen in the defensive CCW scenarios.
If you put it into this context, potentially using different types of pistols to response to a generic violent threat (the guy firing into the crowd over there) then you see there is really not much functional difference in the carry method. It really has very little to do with making the gun SAFE. It is a method to make certain the gun can be put into ACTION regardless of the controls.
It is only when we make this into a CCW/self defense event that the differences show.
For the record here is my response to the BHP thread regarding this:
I think it is really worth noting that the Israeli method was not developed to be the end-all be-all of concealed carry/defensive pistol techniques. It came about, as explained to me by an Israeli, because of a plethora of difference pistol types with different controls. With this technique there is no question of "Gee, does the safety need to go up or down in order to fire? Why won't it go down? Oh,it is on the slide and needs to go up. Damn, I'm dead." It is a greatly simplified matter. Draw pistol, rack slide, shoot.
The other point I believe is worth stressing is that this in NOT a development for concealed carry safety in the civilian world. They were not envisioning all of these scenarios with one handed child carrying or being accosted by muggers. This was for real COMBAT. For responding to a gunman or terrorist. For use in actual war. This is not to remove the considerations for one hand use or previous injury, but to illustrate that the quick draw and getting the first round on target as fast as humanly possible was not the highest priority. These things rarely happen in full scale gunfights and are more commonly seen in the defensive CCW scenarios.
If you put it into this context, potentially using different types of pistols to response to a generic violent threat (the guy firing into the crowd over there) then you see there is really not much functional difference in the carry method. It really has very little to do with making the gun SAFE. It is a method to make certain the gun can be put into ACTION regardless of the controls.
It is only when we make this into a CCW/self defense event that the differences show.
For the record here is my response to the BHP thread regarding this:
to Hook 686; Yes we looked sharp and no one messed with the nukes. I did, however, have to "brain" a squid with the pistol, not because he was a threat to the nukes, but because he thought it would be neat to screw with a Marine standing his post. I warned him twice to please stay on the boundry outside my post. The third time he violated the boundry I clubbed him. He got to see the Captain, lose a months pay, lose a rank and visit our nice brig for a month. needless to say no one bothered us after that!
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