Israeli Carry

[KC Rob]

Yes because children always do what they are told.

No, children do not always do what they are told, but that is no excuse not to train your children properly. If you haven't taught them you can be sure they will do the wrong thing.

Neither one of them could chamber a round, if you promised them every toy in the toy store.

Also, be careful with trusting that your children are too young/weak/uniformed to operate your gun and therefore you are safe. I think you said your kids are 2 and 4, if so, then you are good for the time being but before you know it that will not be the case.

My oldest just turned 13. I have periodically tested his gun knowledge and ability over the years. I think he was first able to pull the stock trigger on a Glock when he was 6 or so. He owns a Ruger 10/22 that he got for his 12th birthday. That is the only gun he has shot. I have taught him gun safety from a young age and he had seen me shoot/handle other guns. Just out of curiosity I recently had him try to load and operate several guns that he was unfamiliar with. I cleared the weapons and loaded the magazines with snap caps and set them on the table. I asked him to load each of these guns: A Ruger 10/22 (modified, not the same as his but similar enough), an AR-15, a pump shotgun, and a 1911.

I thought he could figure out the 10/22 since it operates the same as his, just looks different, and he did. I thought the others would be too much for him. Imagine my surprise when he cycled the AR (I didn't think he could figure out where the charging handle was) and managed, with some difficulty, to also cycle the slide on the 1911 (he pulled the hammer back first). The only one that stumped him was the shotgun, he couldn't figure out how to unlock the pump.

Kids will surprise you, they pick up things quickly just by watching and listening to you and if you don't stay on top of teaching them it will come back to bite you.

 

[9mm]

The only time I am going to "Israeli Carry" is if I am carrying some old revolver without a transfer bar.

Also I do like some of the techniques in those videos. I like how they turn the gun sideways when its empty.

"Israeli carry" is a death waiting to happen. What if one hand is tied up and you cannot rack the slide?

IIRC some guy on this forum is in a country where Israel carry is required for autos, but revolvers not.

 

[zincwarrior]

No, children do not always do what they are told, but that is no excuse not to train your children properly. If you haven't taught them you can be sure they will do the wrong thing.

You can teach, doesn’t mean they will listen. As a poster above noted, at certain ages it doesn’t matter. They can be good kids and listen but “ooh shiney” will take over. I’ve seen that multiple times.

Also saw a hidden video, where they had about five 3-5 year olds. Sat them down and taught them gun safety. They then left a “gun” behind. Within 15 seconds one of the kids had picked it up. That put pause to me in a whole lot of ways.

Older kids are a different matter. My teenagers I trust completely. All can and do shoot, including some higher caliber stuff (and almost scary good, I’m jealous). Other kids of course not, but that’s not related to this topic.

Now lots of CHLers are just fine, and some aren’t. The ones who aren’t well, at least there are many more instances they are better off then if they had nothing.

 

[Hook686]

Originally Posted by Hook686
I always wonder when some folks try to get others to do something. 'Their way'. ...

It's one thing to make one's choice. But if one is going to try to justify his choice, it fair to examine and question his reasoning behind his choice.

How about simply, 'Because I like it that way.' ?

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by berettaprofessor: Seriously, I understand completely that if my life comes down to a fast-draw contest, I'm screwed.

Actually, should you not recognize potential danger and act accordingly, and should you not be able to access, present, and fire a firearm very rapidly should the need arise, things could end very badly.

One way to mitigate the risk is to be able to draw and bring the weapon into action very quickly.

I'm more worried about safety from home invasions and in a Luby's cafeteria.

Have you considered how many people are attacked somewhere other than in the home?

I'll be outside at the pump using my credit card.

...at which time you will be vulnerable to a couple of desperate violent criminal actors in need of a fueled automobile or perhaps the money that can be gained from taking a family member as a hostage.

At home or at Luby's, I believe I'll have time to rack, at least if I'm not the first one shot at Luby's.

Alrighty then....

If it does come down to that fast draw, I was also in the entirely wrong place and I'm probably reacting pretty blindly and probably cranked up with adrenaline so my chances are lousy anyway.

Well, maybe one might want to characterize one who is attacked as having been in "the entirely wrong place", but since criminal attacks occur in parking lots, outside stores, at service stations and ATMs, and on sidewalks, and since the victims have no way of predicting where or when they will be attacked, I don't think that that is a reasonable conclusion.

Nor do I think that making efforts to improve one's chances is futile.

Some people can, under some circumstances, cycle a slide very quickly. Personally, I do not want to add the cycle time that I require to the time needed in what would likely be a very risky life or death situation.

I carry only with a loaded chamber--and I choose to carry semiautomatics that have manual safety devices.

If I really thought the odds were good that I couldn't waste the time to rack a slide, then I'd be carrying a revolver. That pretty much makes the issue mute. If I'm that close and have to draw that fast, it won't matter if I've got 5 or 8 in the pipeline.

Maybe, maybe not.

Are there two of them? Three? How fast were they moving? How many hits did you score? How many shots did it take to stop them? Are you comfortable standing there with an empty firearm? Do you want to rely upon averages?

 

[manta49]

Its up to the individual what way they choice to carry their firearm. With out knowing their background how can you say they need more training ect. What ever they are comfortable with.

 

[KC Rob]

Also saw a hidden video, where they had about five 3-5 year olds. Sat them down and taught them gun safety. They then left a “gun” behind. Within 15 seconds one of the kids had picked it up. That put pause to me in a whole lot of ways.

I think I saw that video too and you might be misremembering some of the details. If it was the same video (it was on news show like 20/20 probably 8+ years ago) the kids who had grown up around guns and had learned gun safety called for an adult when the gun was discovered, the kids who had not had exposure to guns picked it up and pointed it at each other. Maybe we saw completely different videos though, if so I have an issue with the premise. Taking some 3-5 year olds and giving them a quick crash course in gun safety, then letting them loose in a room with a gun is hardy the same as growing up around guns and being taught gun safety over the course of their life.

Clearly I can't expect my 18 month old to obey and make good decisions, but I can expect that from my 6 year old. I could lay a gun down on the kitchen table and walk away and I would be fully confident that none of my children would touch it and it would be exactly where I left it, the exception being the 18 mo.

Anyways, back on topic, I do not feel that I am endangering my children by carrying in condition one, quite the opposite, but if some one wants to carry with a "dead mans chamber" that is their choice and I would wager that they would be fine 99.9999999999% of the time.

 

[Nakanokalronin]

This is a topic that's been beaten to death. Either you carry in a ready condition or not. The term "Israeli carry" is not a correct term unless your in the Israeli military that uses multiple types of firearms with different controls.

The top excuses I've read for condition 3 is...

!. Having the ability to run away if your firearm get's taken
2. The gun won't accidentally go off in the holster
3. Kids in the picture
4. It's as fast or faster then condition 1
5.They'll never need it since the percentage of getting into a situation where a firearm is used is slim

I say....

1. Train more and stop thinking some badguy does not know how to manipulate a firearm.
2.Again, train more and keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire. If your holster is cheap or in poor condition, buy a better holster.
3. I would be more inclined to be as ready as I could be if my family is in danger. Keep the gun on you at all times and if you take it off when you get home, buy a small safe dedicated for your carry gun and gear.
4.Total BS. I've seen videos of people unholstering, racking the slide and shooting at a target. They're slower on the draw than any condition 1 ready firearm (safety or not) with accuracy being sub-par at best. The video earlier in this thread shows no targets, but I remember seeing a C3 carrier shoot the berm in front of the target trying to prove the method is fast.
5.You must be a psychic or a gambler to rely on this mindset.


If you don't trust the gun to stay in a holster or go off on it's own, then buy better gear, get more training and buy a firearm you feel comfortable with. A condition 3 gun is better then nothing, but not by much if you needed to use it. Ever see a round jam while racking from a fresh magazine? Which would you rather have, a round in the chamber ready to go or the chance that you won't have a free hand, shoe,ledge or belt to rack the slide?

 

[BDM 9MM]

While teaching Hunter Safely and NRA Pistol courses for over 25 years I have always shared my personal views on different firearm actions and type of carry I use and why I prefer that type. I have also discussed the reasons why some folks may or may not select a certain type of carry and the shortcomings of the different types of carry. The final choice is up to the individual.

I feel that anyone who says “Condition 1 C&L is the way I do it and anybody who can’t or won’t carry in condition 1 C&L is a fool” - has just shown himself/herself as a fool.

There are many factors that come into play on why people purchase guns and how they decide they want to deploy them. Factors such as:

Training – Not all gun owners have the same desire to learn, practice and train.
Physical abilities – Not everyone has the same hand strength, hand size and conditioning.
Children – Some parents feel that the only way THEY feel safe having a gun in the home is to have it locked away in a gun-safe with a keypad.
Safety – we all live in different areas and lead different lives.

As adults, we all have to make daily decisions and weigh the pros and cons to each choice we make. It’s my opinion that nobody has the right to tell a parent, or any other adult, what he/she should or should not do with their firearm in their home with their children.

Dan

 

[jmstr]

I have no small kids in the house, so my SD handgun has a loaded chamber, in the holster. If it is not in a holster I'd probably 'Israeli carry' it so that the wife or 18-year old didn't ignore my training and do something real stupid. But then it wouldn't really be 'carry' would it? It would be 'Israeli night-standing' it, or something?

If my SD gun is my 1911, my BHP or my M&P .45 it is 'cocked and locked' [or the M&P equivalent, as it has a thumb safety]: in a holster.


I have a question about the 'Israeli' side of this issue though.


I understand that it was a training technique for standardization of weapons. I have a Baby Eagle, which was marketed by Magnum Research but made in Israel. I get the whole 'standardization' aspect.

However, were these field troops? Did they have a different standard when the situation was 'hot' vs whatever constitutes 'normal' patrol duties? I'm just curious if the technique was only used for 'daily carry' when the perception was that no one is going to spring out at you and attack, or if it was intended for use while firing your Galil or other long gun.

I know, I know: Israel and 'no springing out to attack' seems incompatible.

Just wondering.

 

[BGutzman]

For myself I too grew up in a house with a gun in almost every corner and none of us ever treated them with anything less than respect even as kids. Unfortunately times have changed and not for the better....

That said there is no way that Israeli carry can be faster than already having a round in the chamber when having a round in the chamber is the only way to fire a bullet...

Of course i guess if you Israeli carry you don’t worry about thing like misfeeds on the first round, lord knows that would never happen..... In my world either you trust your self, your judgment and equipment or there’s not much point other than giving some BG a nice pistol or ending up as fertilizer....

But in the final evaluation I get it that its a very personal thing and in the same breath I still believe it to be a serious mistake...

I cant imagine my retraining strap coming undone without me knowing about it and then my pistol being pulled without me knowing about it....

Do however as you will, but dont ask me to tell you its a good way to carry or in any way one iota a safer way to carry... to my mind its a public liability..

 

[Nakanokalronin]

Here's a question.....what top instructors teach condition 3 carry?

BTW, if you want to do it the real Israeli way.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRdZ3hZ8y-w I love the little roll, pause and chamber at the end.

Wonder how many rounds would of been fired at him if he was actually facing a threat?

Listen what he says in the beginning on why this method is implemented. Every citizen is a soldier and they had to create a method for multiple types of small arms that are carried by people.

This is a interesting video as well that everyone should take a look at. Mind that the woman knows she is going to be attacked ahead of time considering this is a demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syxrpLbaEuY&feature=related

Here's a another that makes a good point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syAReiTd9jg&feature=related

 

[44 AMP]

Now most new shooters are not aware that back in the 60's-80's the semi handgun was not the most reliable as it is now nor as safe...

I believe this to be one of the more foolish statements I have run across lately. IF that's not obvious to you, your education is sadly lacking.

After having read through all the posts so far, we seem to have three basic opinions.

One, if you need to shoot, you will need to shoot as fast as possible, and you will be dead if you can't. Carrying chamber loaded is as safe as anything.

Two, the tiny amount of time needed to chamber a round won't make any difference in a real world situation. Carrying chamber loaded is unsafe, and dangerous.

Three, what's the big deal, do what makes you feel "safest".

Each one is right, in a specific situation. But our lives are more than one single specific situation.

As to the children climbing all over you, yeah, we love our little house apes, and give them great latitude. BUT that doesn't mean there are no limits or rules. And, personally, I fail to see how going chamber empty ALL the time, so you will feel safe when the kids climb on you is a good idea. Myself, I would just put the gun away, THEN play with the kids. And yes, I have raised a few of my own.

people make a big deal of cocked and locked, thinking its unsafe (with a handgun) but don't seem at all concerned when its a long arm. Wonder why that is....

Standing orders for GI carry of the 1911A1, for generations, was condition 3. Chamber empty. Not sure if they still order that for the 9mm, but I would be surprised if they don't.

Now, why do you think they order it that way? Simply put, for safety. NOT the safety of the person carrying the pistol, the safety of the service. When you have large numbers of un or under trained people, most of whom are young men, a certain percentage of them will do stupid things. Some of them will even do stupid things with loaded weapons. Ordering chamber empty at all times (outside of actual combat) reduces the accidents caused by doing stupid things, because it takes multiple stupid things, in the proper sequence to have an accidental discharge. Its got NOTHING to do with the safety or protection of the soldier carrying the pistol.

Carry your gun any way you feel safe. I won't tell you that you are wrong, IF you are safe. Please do the same, for me.

 

[orthosophy]

To avoid the pains of bad grammar and internet epeen waving, I carry a modern revolver.

I suppose I could carry hammer down on a full cylinder with the next chamber empty. Would that be Israeli? Then you have to pull the trigger twice to make it go bang. Did I just invent something? If I did, I want it named after me, so in 40 years, people can argue about it on the internet.

BOOM. Problem solved.

 

[carguychris]

I won't rehash the conceptual arguments for and against Condition 3 carry, since those already seems to be getting beaten to death.

I will make one point, however.

I carry only with a loaded chamber--and I choose to carry semiautomatics that have manual safety devices.

If you are concerned about kids (or other unauthorized users), IMHO it's worth considering a gun such as a S&W metal-frame decocker/safety automatic (numerous models), a Beretta 92, or a CZ 75 BD... AND getting the hammer bobbed.

In order to fire the gun, the child would have to figure out how to disengage the decocker/safety and THEN pull through a long 10+ lb double-action first-shot trigger pull. Bobbing the hammer prevents the gun from being manually cocked once the safety is off; most automatic pistol users will never miss the hammer spur.

It's something to consider. Of course, NOTHING is a substitute for being conscientious of your firearms(s) around children, and training them to treat firearms with proper respect.

 

[Tom Servo]

Things are getting a bit uncivil in spots here. Let's all take a deep breath and at worst, agree to disagree.

This is by far not the first time the question has come up. A quick search on "Condition 3" will return oodles of results.

 

[Catfishman]

Israeli Carry

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know of at least three people that Israeli carry despite my having explained in depth why it is a poor choice to do so.... The constant reply I get from my friends is that they feel its safer and I reply with if you feel your guns unsafe or cant be trusted then get a new gun... I even went so far as to find two articles from reputable sources on the issue...


I personally believe it is a total lack of confidence in themselves and not a lack of trust of safeties.

So my question is do you think there is a reasonable way to train someone through this lack of confidence and if so how would you approach it? I dont want to insult them but I sure dont want to see them end up on the short end of a situation due to a lack of confidence....

You sound exactly like Niles Crane

But on subject, what's it to you?
Carry the way you like and let your friends carry the way they like.
We are talking about opinions, not facts.

 

[Dragline45]

But on subject, what's it to you?
Carry the way you like and let your friends carry the way they like.
We are talking about opinions, not facts

Fact, it is faster to draw and fire with a gun that already has a round chambered than it is to fire a gun with an empty chamber.

Fact, all modern pistols are subject to drop tests to ensure they will not go off prematurely.

Fact, a frame mounted safety ensures the trigger cannot be pulled while it is engaged.

Opinion, anyone who carries a handgun for protection with an empty chamber needs more firearm training for they are clearly not familiar with their gun nor are they mentally prepared.

 

[btmj]

I do not understand why some people aggressive argue with others who choose to carry in a way that is different. I can see arguing with unsafe behavior, but carrying concealed with an empty chamber does not violate any of the 4 rules... so who cares?

The Second Amendment protects everyones right to keep and bear arms. Not just the competent, the confident, the well trained, and the well informed. Condition 3 carry may be unwise, but we should respect peoples right to carry, even is we know they are wrong. Period.

 

[Catfishman]

I do not understand why some people aggressively argue with others who choose to carry in a way that is different. I can see arguing with unsafe behavior, but carrying concealed with an empty chamber does not violate any of the 4 rules... so who cares?

The Second Amendment protects everyones right to keep and bear arms. Not just the competent, the confident, the well trained, and the well informed. Condition 3 carry may be unwise, but we should respect peoples right to carry, even is we know they are wrong. Period

I couldn't agree more.

Every time one of these threads comes up it lowers my opinion of some of the members and staff on this forum.

I'm cool with someone acting and believing differently from me. You'll never catch me calling someone an unprepared fool just because they have arrived at a different conclusion than me.

I guess I'm just more of a live and let live, libertarian kinda guy.