Israeli Carry
- Thread starter BGutzman
- Start date
- Status
Everyone should carry how they feel comfortable based on their level of training and proficiency. Using children as an excuse to carry condition 3 though doesn't fly with me, I have 5 kids including a toddler and I carry a 1911 in C1 when ever I am out of the house. When out shopping with my wife I sometimes find myself having to hold the little one in one arm which would preclude my ability to draw, cycle the slide and defend myself if needed. That being said, no gun in my home is kept in condition 1, they all have an empty chamber, and this is for my kids safety, but when I am carrying and am in control of the weapon, I want it to be ready to go.
g.willikers
New member
As a side note, some of the striker fired designs are not likely to fire without a full pull of the trigger.
When the gun is "cocked", the striker is held only partially back until the trigger is pulled.
Then it is pulled fully back and released, to fire the round.
So, if something would cause the striker to fly forward, without a pull of the trigger, it wouldn't have enough power to fire the chambered round.
But some others do have the strikers fully cocked and ready to fire before the trigger is pulled, and generally have some kind of external safety.
And both types have an internal striker safety that blocks it from functioning, until the trigger fully pulled.
Just thought it's worth including in the conversation.
When the gun is "cocked", the striker is held only partially back until the trigger is pulled.
Then it is pulled fully back and released, to fire the round.
So, if something would cause the striker to fly forward, without a pull of the trigger, it wouldn't have enough power to fire the chambered round.
But some others do have the strikers fully cocked and ready to fire before the trigger is pulled, and generally have some kind of external safety.
And both types have an internal striker safety that blocks it from functioning, until the trigger fully pulled.
Just thought it's worth including in the conversation.
Destroyed my knees in service of my nation, walking is painful, running although possible wouldnt work very well... Certainly I would attempt to retreat if possible but the reality is I have limitations...
Although Im not sure how not israeli carrying translates into not retreating......
Crow Hunter
New member
No it isn't. If a child can manage to draw and fire a weapon from your concealment holster without you knowing it, the number of times a child is around doesn't make a difference. A child capable of doing this, should be taught not to. I child too small to do this should not be able to defeat the holster/safety combination, if they are, the holster/weapon/carry location should be changed.
So you suggest that compliance is the best response when faced with a violent threat? Why carry at all? The only way someone will NOT "have the drop on you" is if you draw in anticipation of trouble. Which means you just initiated a lethal force encounter by drawing and presenting a weapon when no direct threat to life and limb was present. That is a good way to have a self defense case brought against you.
Incorrect again. If he is planning on using his off hand for other tasks, like charging his weapon, he will not have a hand free to move, direct, or control members of his families direction of movement or to keep them from trying to climb up into his arms for protection. When people panic they do stupid things unless they are trained. If they aren't trained, they will have be to directed or controlled. That is difficult to do with just voice commands, people will respond much better to pushes, shoves, pulling.
My wife and I drill so that if one sees a threat and yells "COVER" we both move to cover in opposite directions off the line of attack. I don't have to shove her or direct her. She is trained and is often armed herself.
However, if I were out with my in-laws or with my nephew and I needed to draw a weapon for defense, they have no idea what to do. I would need to grab them and drag them to cover if needed or I would need to push them down or out of the way of incoming/outgoing gunfire. Neither of which is easy to do while trying to make a gun ready.
zincwarrior
New member
Yes because children always do what they are told.
I imagine (as I am not the person worried about the kids) the poster is not only worried about the pistol being pulled out, but also the trigger being jostled or squeezed sufficiently for it to go off. Odds are low, but in that poster's eyes not low enough to warrant the risk.
As noted, She Who Must Be Obeyed likes condition 3, and her response when I have brought this up is "quiet old man." As the kids are hitting high school, this argument is falling away, and after years I am on the cusp of having her move from a .380 to 9mm (I think mostly because our 13 year old has taken a shine to the Beretta 92 and she has also).
Me, myself, and I, like another poster I was taught about safeties on firearms and feel naked without a manual safety. Besides, the perfect pistol comes with a sasfety as standard since 1911.
Crow Hunter
New member
A child old enough to know how to draw a weapon and pull the trigger, should be taught when and where this is acceptable, and when it isn't.
A person who can't keep a child from drawing and pulling the trigger on a firearm that is carried on their person doesn't need to be carrying a gun at all.
Carrying the weapon in a appropriate holster will completely eliminate this as a possibility. Carrying a gun without it being in a holster is a whole different discussion and I wouldn't advise that with or without children.
Onward Allusion
New member
The only reason I'd Israeli Carry is if it wasn't in a holster.
Yep, I remember watching that too, I think it was here. Don'tknow how much he trained with Israili carry but it obviously wasn't enough when SHTF and he fumbled. He did die at the scene.
To be fair, if you watch the vid you could argue his bigger mistake was drawing in the first place on those two thugs. They were both armed, moving fast, and had the drop on him. Surprise and shock was definately on their side. Even if he had carried Condition 1 I think he would still be in a very bad way. I would have let them take the jewelry unless they started plugging people, or taking us to the backroom...
Crow Hunter - You are so out of place on the child thing I will not bother quoting all of your uninformed assumptions about children. Bottom line is you have no clue what your talking about. Your best bet is to just focus on another point altogether.
2] I was not implying everyone in the NYPD for all time are not trained. But have you seen the news at all in the past couple of years? The accidental shooting by the NYPD are numerous. 10.lbs triggers to make up for lack of training to reduce the number of accidental shootings. NYPD firearm traing requires. http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/public_information/RAND_FirearmEvaluation.pdfRead this when you get time. Start at page 17.
3] I have multiple classes for licensing of various types, Suarez International intro to defensive pistol and defensive pistol 2, NRA approved local defensive shotgun, Plus I am a member of IDPA, USPSA and run 2 gun comps. I get 12-18 hours a month just running action sports. What about you?
1] The data you are referencing does not touch on having only one hand free. Only on one hand shooting
2] I was not implying everyone in the NYPD for all time are not trained. But have you seen the news at all in the past couple of years? The accidental shooting by the NYPD are numerous. 10.lbs triggers to make up for lack of training to reduce the number of accidental shootings. NYPD firearm traing requires. http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/public_information/RAND_FirearmEvaluation.pdfRead this when you get time. Start at page 17.
3] I have multiple classes for licensing of various types, Suarez International intro to defensive pistol and defensive pistol 2, NRA approved local defensive shotgun, Plus I am a member of IDPA, USPSA and run 2 gun comps. I get 12-18 hours a month just running action sports. What about you?
ZERO
zincwarrior
New member
You know guys we can take it down a notch and discuss it in civilized fashion...
Your absolutely right.
Bottom line is, I never tried to convince anyone to carry one way or another. Previous comments about how dumb it is to carry with an empty chamber are mal informed people. I carry the way I do for the safety of my children. Neither one of them could chamber a round, if you promised them every toy in the toy store. So that how I keep my weapons. If you think that leaves me at a disadvantage, you are gravely mistaken. You can't explain the concept of death to a 2 or 4 year old. Or cause and effect for that matter. I also happen to like that my children climb and jump on me. I wouldn't trade that for all the safety in the world.
I'm not sure you need to. I was just answering your question.
Crow Hunter
New member
Please detail my uninformed assumptions. You aren't going to hurt my feelings, although I seem to have hurt yours.
I was raised in a household in which guns were very everywhere, spent alot of my youth from a very young behind a gun store counter in which loaded S&W revolvers were laying in plain view on the desk behind the counter. Never once did I accidently shoot a gun.
I am seriously interested in what scenario you feel you are protecting against by carrying an unloaded weapon and how you train to utilize it effectively.
Do you run empty chamber and charge before engagements in all of these activities? Was this what you were taught by Gabe Suarez?
I have a couple of local training classes by no name instructors, and Fighting Pistol 1 with Tactical Response. I also shot GSSF once, but most of my shooting is done on a home range with myself and brother and/or wife. Obviously you have more training andcompetition experience than I do, yet you continue to enspouse a method of carry that is not endorsed by any reputable trainer that I am aware of and I am unable to comprehend why you would consider it superior to chamber loaded carry.
You have me seriously interested.
Why?
Same here.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
See my profile.iamdb said:
berettaprofessor
New member
I'm coming late to this party, but I'm on the Israeli carry side, at least when I pocket or IWB carry. Seriously, I understand completely that if my life comes down to a fast-draw contest, I'm screwed. But I live in a pretty low personal crime area...few muggings and I don't spend much time at the mall. I'm more worried about safety from home invasions and in a Luby's cafeteria. I don't fantasize about being the guy who stops the convenience store robbery; I'll be outside at the pump using my credit card. At home or at Luby's, I believe I'll have time to rack, at least if I'm not the first one shot at Luby's.
If it does come down to that fast draw, I was also in the entirely wrong place and I'm probably reacting pretty blindly and probably cranked up with adrenaline so my chances are lousy anyway. Given today's legal realities of pulling a concealed weapon and using it, I want my head in the game and if part of that is deciding whether I need to and have time to get my weapon into play or whether I'm better off running, then I'm going to take that chance.
If I really thought the odds were good that I couldn't waste the time to rack a slide, then I'd be carrying a revolver. That pretty much makes the issue mute. If I'm that close and have to draw that fast, it won't matter if I've got 5 or 8 in the pipeline.
Who is it on here that has the byline "slow is smooth and smooth is fast"?
If it does come down to that fast draw, I was also in the entirely wrong place and I'm probably reacting pretty blindly and probably cranked up with adrenaline so my chances are lousy anyway. Given today's legal realities of pulling a concealed weapon and using it, I want my head in the game and if part of that is deciding whether I need to and have time to get my weapon into play or whether I'm better off running, then I'm going to take that chance.
If I really thought the odds were good that I couldn't waste the time to rack a slide, then I'd be carrying a revolver. That pretty much makes the issue mute. If I'm that close and have to draw that fast, it won't matter if I've got 5 or 8 in the pipeline.
Who is it on here that has the byline "slow is smooth and smooth is fast"?
Another reading comp major
I fail to see how you mistake my attitude of "negligible difference" with considering it superior. I didn't come here to go back and forth with you. You obviously are not going to agree with me. As far as I'm concerned, good.Very impressive resume Fiddletown. You obviously have weight to any argument you make. I'm sure you can agree that the difference is negligible to a proficient shooter. Sure, if I lose my hand before I draw my weapon I might be in trouble or fall, or get poked in the eye, or another "attacker" sneaks up behind me, a million scenarios that could happen where I would probably not draw in the first place. I'm willing to bet I will never have to need a gun in the first place. But i'm sure the same people will disagree with that attitude as well.
Some people imagine themselves a hero, looking to fight evil. Others just focus on living the good life. I am in the latter group. Not much more to add to this thread so I will be removing myself.
- Status