Israeli Carry

Status
Not open for further replies.
You can't control your children well enough to prevent them from setting off your concealed firearm by climbing all over you, but you feel that during a life and death situation with screaming and cussing, fear and rage flowing like water around you that you will be able to control these children while also drawing and then making a weapon ready?
You're really out of line with this comment. I'm going to assume your childless.

I live in Florida and after running 4-5 hours of action shooting, you have plenty of sweat built up. It's never once been an issue. I am going to have to assume if I needed to draw my weapon I wouldn't have time to move my children as I would be focused on my front post in short order. Three tenths of a second extra will be of no consequence for my needs. If it does to you, you should be walking around with some level 4 plates and a kevlar helmet or perhaps tinfoil. Maybe work on some situational awareness.

Note that according to the 2009 NYPD Firearm Discharge Report, 38% of officers reporting their shooting technique used in a violent encounter used their sidearm one-handed
NYPD.... With all due respect, the epitome of training. :D
 
Last edited:
I think it is pertinent to the discussion to mention why the Israelis developed their method. At the time the method was developed, the Israelis had a plethora of different types of semi-autos in inventory and the type of action (SA vs DA) and the manner in which the safety worked (frame mounted ala 1911 or Hi-Power vs. slide mounted ala S&W or Walther P38) varied greatly. The "Israeli Method" of carrying in Condition 3 and chambering a round as the pistol was drawn was developed so that one standardized method could be taught that would work with any type of semi-auto handgun that the user might have to use.

If, however, a person is using one type of handgun exclusively, I think that carrying with a round in the chamber is a much better option. Some action types such as the "cocked and locked" 1911 or the lack of an active manual safety on a Glock simply make certain people nervous. Rather than trying to convince someone to carry a gun in a manner that they are uncomfortable with, I would suggest to that person that perhaps they might be better served by switching to a different platform that they'd be more comfortable with carrying with a round in the chamber (or chambers in the case of a revolver).
 
I always wonder when some folks try to get others to do something. 'Their way'. Kinda like, 'My way, or the highway.' If you are secure with the belief that you are right, then why the need to get someone to agree that you are right. Let it go, and carry as you choose. Let others carry as they choose. This is America after all.
 
iamdb said:
...Three tenths of a second extra will be of no consequence for my needs....
How do you know?

iamdb said:
fiddletown said:
Note that according to the 2009 NYPD Firearm Discharge Report, 38% of officers reporting their shooting technique used in a violent encounter used their sidearm one-handed
NYPD.... With all due respect, the epitome of training.
[1] Real life data regarding real world engagements.

[2] Remember that Jim Cirillo was NYPD, and there still are, as far as I know, some very well trained special units.

[3] And what kind of training do you have?
 
Last edited:
Hook686 said:
I always wonder when some folks try to get others to do something. 'Their way'. ...
It's one thing to make one's choice. But if one is going to try to justify his choice, it fair to examine and question his reasoning behind his choice.
 
What does it all mean...

So thank you for some history.

I think it was needed as many folks are new.

Israeli carry refers to carring a handgun with an unloaded chamber and full magazine. Upon drawing the slide is cycled before the firearm reaches chest level and once on target the shooter shoots.


Keep it in perspective...
The history at the time that this was developed was out of the need to safely carry a handgun without lots of safety issues.

Now most new shooters are not aware that back in the 60's-80's the semi handgun was not the most reliable as it is now nor as safe... The issued handgun at the time had issues so the Israeli's developed this method for their troops so they can safely carry in a manner that was safe for experienced shooters to those new to the military (new to guns).

Now this is also known as Condition 3

Condition 1 loaded chamber, loaded magazine and cocked (whichever order you want to think about it)
Condition 2 loaded chamber, loaded magazine but hammer down
Condition 3 is unloaded chamber, loaded magazine
etc.

Now for those that carry... the best way is to carry the way your firearm is designed to be carried. More specifically the 1911 design is meant and designed to be carried in Condition 1. Bypassing and lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber is risky and unsafe! It was not designed to be carried in this fashion... hence the arguments not to do this. It is by far safer to carry in Condition 3 then condition 2 for a 1911 design.

Now it has been mentioned before that there are many factors why folks will carry... in condition 2 or 3... the most I find is lack of experience and folks feeling unsure about condition 1.

Until one feels "safe" I would rather have folks carry in condition 3 than condition 2. It's just unsafe to lower that hammer on a 1911 on a loaded chamber.


Now, I will say I have meet some folks that do carry in this fashion and original intent of the Israeli method of carry. These are folks that really know their stuff and I will say they can outdraw and outfire a great deal of folks on here or any range. Not to say if you get someone equally trained and experience that they would lose... but for the vast majority they will put rounds down range and put a lot of hurt on you before you know what happened - granted this is what they do and live to do...

So, carry safely... Carry often and be confident in the way you carry.
Train as you fight.
 
... the best way is to carry the way your firearm is designed to be carried. More specifically the 1911 design is meant and designed to be carried in Condition 1. Bypassing and lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber is risky and unsafe! It was not designed to be carried in this fashion... hence the arguments not to do this. It is by far safer to carry in Condition 3 then condition 2 for a 1911 design.

It is not so relevant to this discussion but the above is mistaken. The 1911 was designed to be carried in all three ways and is built to do so. This was the way the military wanted it and the way Browning and Colt engineers designed it. Originally Condition one was a conditional mode of carry. The more standard modes were condition 2 or three. Only in the post WWII period has condition one become a standard. This largely the result of Jeff Cooper and the rise of competitive action shooting of the IDPA and IPSC type and it's emphasis on speed to the first aimed shot.

tipoc
 
All of my CCW and home defense weapons are in condition 2.

One is a 686 in my nightstand. Obviously, no safety so I definitely don't feel comfortable having the hammer back on that.

My other two weapons of choice are both Beretta PX4s. These have a decocker on them so with the hammer back, if you put the safety on it will drop the hammer (safely of course) and therefore like the revolver it would need to have no safety on to have the hammer back.

I'm perfectly comfortable shooting double action with all of them so I don't have any regrets or feelings that I need something different. As for the safety, I've grown up hunting since I was smaller than the deer I was shooting. Anytime I pick up a firearm, be it a shotgun, rifle or handgun, my instinct is to flip the safety as I'm going to the sites. It's always been that way. I know it's not quite the same, but anyone that's hunted will tell you, your heart starts going and you get pretty damn excited when that 10 point buck steps out and I've still never forgotten to take the safety off.


Now I will admit, if/when I find something for the soon to be wife, I think I'd rather have something striker fired with no safety like a glock, or XD for her. although she's very aware of the safety under normal circumstances I do think she'd forget about it if she was in a situation.
 
I find some of these comments amusing. I personally carry unchambered because I have 2 small children. They are always climbing on me and climbing on furniture to get to places they shouldn't. If you think there is a major difference in speed between "Israeli Carry" and condition 1 or 2, you are mistaken. Go run some IDPA and look at the time difference between them. Negligible, maybe a second tops for the new guys. Less than that with any gun proficiency.
Quote:
Ignorance is bliss. Have you told them why it's called Israeli carry? But like Larry says, "You can't fix stupid."

Mall ninjas will be mall ninjas

Indeed. People have lots of reasons for doing different things.
 
That's what I think. The most important part of carrying is being comfortable with it.

ok, safety is probably #1, comfort would be #2 but comfort would help lead to the safety part.
 
You're really out of line with this comment. I'm going to assume your childless.

Yes, I am childless. But I am around children all the time at family gatherings/weekends, including one very, very badly disciplined nephew. I don't worry about him accidently setting off my weapon because the trigger guard is covered, he would have to draw the weapon to activate the trigger. If children come to visit my house, my loaded weapons are stored in locked quick access safes that no one but myself and wife know the combination to.

I think my question is legitimate. If you can't keep your children from setting off your loaded weapon. What are you going to do with them if a mugger pulls a weapon on you on the way to the car when leaving Chuckie Cheeses or the mall? Have you drilled them and your wife enough that they know what to do? Do they know to take cover, move away from the threat? If you haven't they are going to be grabbing you and clinging to you as their father/husband, potentially interfering with your ability to draw from concealment and charge your weapon. What if in a panic, they run into your line of fire?

What if your significant others are between you and the threat? How will you get them out of the way of potential gun fire? Verbal commands? Have they trained with you enough that they know the commands and will react instantly to what you say? Or will you need to grab your wife and/or kids and shove them down behind cover or behind you as you are drawing your weapon?

Maybe work on some situational awareness.

So you believe that situational awareness will give you enough time to draw and ready your weapon before something happens? So you plan on drawing your weapon before you are threatened? Have you thought about the legal implications escalating an encounter? If you are saying that your situational awareness is so good that you can be ready before any type of dangerous situation happens, why carry at all? You can just avoid them, right?

Seriously, if you aren't comfortable with the weapon that you are using or how you carry it get some good professional training or change to a weapon type that you are more comfortable with. If you are in Florida, Rob Sloyer runs some really good reality based competitions/training events. You can get in touch with him through tacticalyellowvisor.net. If not that, then I am pretty sure that Larry Vickers or Pat Rogers or Kyle Defoor or Jason Falla or some of the other good trainers run some classes in Florida.


NYPD.... With all due respect, the epitome of training.

Do you know members of the NYPD? Do you know their training schedule? Have you competed against members of the NYPD in open competition and beaten them with your method of carry? Ever heard of Pat Rogers? Jim Cirillo?
 
I always wonder when some folks try to get others to do something. 'Their way'. Kinda like, 'My way, or the highway.' If you are secure with the belief that you are right, then why the need to get someone to agree that you are right. Let it go, and carry as you choose. Let others carry as they choose. This is America after all.

Agreed. This is a common issue like the endless 9mm vs. 45 ACP (or now 9mm vs. .40 cal for you youngins) debate.

In my instance the Wife is always in condition “3” for the same reason related to kids. For myself I would never go with a pistol without an active safety and am most comfortable with a 1911 active safety and palm safety. Life is uncertain and I have seen too many times people fumbling to holster their weapon, have it catch, or some other glitch. And no, I wouldn’t trust revolvers either. But if others are comfortable in that fashion, then that’s fine. I’ve no issue.

The secret is to be comfortable and practice, practice, practice.
 
For those of you that cite the use of "Israeli Carry" by the IDF as justification for using the method yourself you should keep in mind that they do it because it is policy, not because it is better/safer/faster/whatever. If it was truly a better/safer/faster method then me and every other LEO in America would be screaming for policy changes so we would be able to enjoy the advantages of "Israeli Carry" on duty.
 
Origionally posted by lost sheep

I had heard that it was just because that was what the Israeli Defense Force required of their troops, but the only speculation was that it (1) cut down on the number of accidental discharges, (2) was easier on the ammunition (fewer cycles of feeding/chambering) or (3) easier to administer, whatever that means.

One of the articles I found claimed the Israeli carry originated from the fact that in the founding of Israeli military forces they had been given a wide variety of used and poor condition pistols and had multiple models so there was no one standard.

It was a safety measure that is no longer needed...

For myself in a self defense situation I want as few distractions and as few possibilities a failure to feed as possible... I dont believe the BG will allow you to re rack your pistol before he shoots you just because you had a poor hand grip on the slide or whatever. It is also possible under pressure that some people may forget to remember that they need to rack the slide... I am unaware of any military or police force that still carries using the Israeli carry.. If it was such a great safety choice why does no major police or military force still do it?

I get it that some people never will change and that confidence levels vary but honestly any modern well made pistol properly carred (with safetys properly used) in a maintained, well conditioned holster that covers the trigger fully should be safe without resorting to the israeli carry...
 
Last edited:
Yes, I am childless. But I am around children all the time at family gatherings/weekends, including one very, very badly disciplined nephew. I don't worry about him accidently setting off my weapon because the trigger guard is covered, he would have to draw the weapon to activate the trigger. If children come to visit my house, my loaded weapons are stored in locked quick access safes that no one but myself and wife know the combination to.
***Sorry but there is a major difference between occasionally being around children, and having children constantly about you and your items, including when you least expect it. I’ve had children pull things out of my pockets. Heck I’ve had a wiener dog start rooting in a pocket after some imaginary tidbit. If this is their concern then its better for them to be safe than sorry, as the odds of an accident are higher than the odds of needing that pistol in the first place.

I think my question is legitimate. If you can't keep your children from setting off your loaded weapon. What are you going to do with them if a mugger pulls a weapon on you on the way to the car when leaving Chuckie Cheeses or the mall?
***If a mugger already has the drop on you then its best not to play Doc Holliday with them whether or not you’re in condition 1, 2, or 3.

Have you drilled them and your wife enough that they know what to do? Do they know to take cover, move away from the threat? If you haven't they are going to be grabbing you and clinging to you as their father/husband, potentially interfering with your ability to draw from concealment and charge your weapon. What if in a panic, they run into your line of fire?
***All important, but none of that is relevant to the topic at hand.
 
Somewhere out there floating around the internet is a horrifying video of a store getting held up by a group of thugs. I think it's a jewelry store.

As the man working behind the counter fumbles with raking the slide on his semi auto, the thugs proceed to fill his body with bullets. I can't imagine the store clerk survived, but I'm not sure.

That video pretty much ended any thoughts I had of carrying without one in the pipe and ready to go.
 
Concerning the comment about 1911s being designed for Condition 1... It's interesting to note that when reading through my Para manual it was explicitly stated to never manually lower the hammer on a loaded chamber as it was unsafe. Now, this could be because of the skeletal/light-weight hammer type, but as I understood it as well as another previous poster, I did not think that 1911s were designed with the ability to lower the hammer loaded. As far as I can recall, most manuals, for modern firearms anyway, state explicitly how the gun was designed to be loaded and kept safe. There is a wealth of information online that will tell you if your particular firearm is designed to be carried safely with a loaded chamber.

No, you can't change people's minds and I never intend to myself. I let people believe in flying spaghetti monsters and that a .45 auto will take yer head clean off. As far as how I approach the firearm and how I would carry it? I read every available piece of information on every gun I own so that I walk into the situation like a professional. That's how I approached gun owning in the first place. It was a long decision making process that involved reading this forum for a long while before buying. Everything that I don't need for SD is unloaded, and this includes a wide variety of actions and styles. If I were able to carry in Chicago, it would be my PF9. Perfect for CCW, the trigger pull sucks so much that it is just impossible for the gun to go off with anything but intent. For my house, I prefer the 1911 in condition one as a backup. I'm reaching for the Mossberg first when the chips are down. And yes, the Mossy is ready with the flick of the safety.
 
Three tenths of a second extra will be of no consequence for my needs.

When someone is rushing at you, at real speed with intent on attacking you, that may in fact not be nearly enough time.

I speak from experience.

If I had kids climbing on me all the time, I'd have a holster with retention. So, the climbing kid would have to: open the retention snap, pull the gun out of the holster, deactivate the safety (I don't have one but maybe would if I had kids), activate the trigger.

iamdb- how many times has a climbing kid actually pulled your gun out of the holster?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top