Israeli Carry

[Deaf Smith]

Several advantages for chamber carry plus a few disadvantages.

1) Simplicity. No need to add another step to get the weapon in action.

2) Immediate first shot in the shortest time period, especially from retention position (that is grabbing distance.)

3) No need for two hands to chamber. You may have one hand hurt or busy and not be able to use two hands. Grappling with an attacker also makes chambering with two hands rather tough. Opponent may slam you to the ground, or grab the weapon, or just punch you while you try to chamber a round.

4) When under pressure you might short stroke the action and jam the weapon.

The downside is that if you forget the gun is loaded you can pull the trigger and have a AD/ND (but then, just KYFFOTFT till the weapon is on target.) Yes there are AD/NDs every year. No doubt many have their weapons chamber loaded, but then many are ‘cleaning’ their weapons and well, who knows what state their weapons was really in.

Now chamber empty (C3) has a few advantages.

1) A gun snatch will give you a few seconds for the BG to react (you hope) to get the weapon back.

2) If you have kids, and the slide is hard to rack, it's less chancy of they get the gun somehow (but then I feel you should just pick the gun up, ok.)

3) If your gun is not drop safe, then chamber empty is the best way to carry.

4) No safe way to carry the weapon (lack of holster, poor holster, etc..)

5) If you tend to take your gun out and play with it instead of keeping it holstered then C3 might be a better way to carry. (not kidding, there are people that do mess with their weapons like that.)

Overall, chamber empty is an inferior technique for most people. There are some where it serves a purpose like having the weapon hidden around the house and you have time to chamber a round, but for most, chamber loaded is the better technique for a defensive handgun.

Now why is C3 inferior? Because of the extra steps one has to take that mostly require two hands under very stressful conditions. Yes I am aware you can chamber one handed but can one do this quickly and reliably adverse conditions? I do mean quick and reliable, say when grapping with an attacker? Or with various simi-autos that are produced now? Or in the rain? Or while moving? I doubt it. One doubts it, right? Doing a one handed rack on a square range on a sunny day isn't the same thing as on the street when things are going down hill quickly.

Is chamber empty safer to carry in the light of ND/ADs? It is difficult so see how it is safer if you keep the weapon in a proper holster that covers the trigger guard and has adequate retention (in case of a fall or such) and don/doff with the weapon in the holster. That way the trigger cannot be pulled in any way.

But wither one carries their weapon C1 or C3, it is very important to train to be safe. If you cannot keep your weapon holstered until needed, don't carry C1, and if you tend to fumble chambering a weapon fast, don't carry C3 (and for BOTH C1 and C3, if you can't keep your finger off the trigger until the need to fire, leave the gun home!) Training is the most important part. Ignorance is what causes AD/NDs, not the state of the weapon.

Deaf

 

[Tom Servo]

You and Tom Servo need to agree on which way this discussion is supposed to go.

I don't see any disagreement. Glenn and I have different opinions on a few things, but we respect each other. We can have a reasoned argument, which is an entirely different thing from bickering.

("Bickering" would be when I accuse him of kicking puppies. Cute ones.)

I agree that Condition 3 is rarely optimal, but let me stir the pot just a bit. My first training with a handgun was with the Sig P210. We were trained to carry on an empty chamber. I practised and got fast with draw/rack drills.

(Just for fun, try doing it with that slide profile. If you can't get ahold of a P210, a CZ-75 is almost identical. You'll gouge the heck out of your hand on the rear sight!)

The funny thing is, the P210 can be carried in Condition 1, but unless you've got really long fingers, the safety is hard to reach. The other option is Condition 3, and for me, it's not too big of a hurdle.

But it's still a hurdle, and the only reason I consider it is the fact that the gun shoots so phenomenally for me. I wouldn't suggest anyone else do so unless they were willing to put in some serious time and practice.

 

[Nakanokalronin]

I read your entire post but wanted to quote this part.

Ignorance is what causes AD/NDs, not the state of the weapon.

From the post by Hook686 .

One of my thoughts is: it is more selfish to carry in a cocked and locked configuration, Level 1, whereas it is more beneficial to the greater good to carry in Level 3. In one case a person is thinking of them-self, in the other the person is thinking of the welfare of others.

For one, we're not talking about a cocked and locked pistol, we're talking about chambered or unchambered. That term describes certain guns but not all. For example, a Beretta 92 or Px4 is not "cocked and locked" but is designed to be carried chambered with the hammer down and safety on or off. It can be had in decocker only configuration but many even carry the safety models with it off since it's just as safe.

In reality, you carry your revolver fully loaded. For a revolver to be equal to condition 3, you would leave the chamber in front the firing pin empty although it would only take a trigger pull to fire the first shot so it's not really a good comparison. If someone can't trust a SAO, SA/DA or DAO gun to be fully chambered, a revolver would probably be the best bet.

I'm not sure why you think a chambered semi-auto makes one selfish, but that's your own thoughts and your welcome to them. I carry chambered since I'm not sure if I may have to push someone off me, open a door, push away or carry a loved one which requires one hand manipulation of my firearm. Depending on what type of gun, it requires me to either flick off a safety with my thumb or just pull the trigger, not hope I have the ability to rack the slide with a free hand or a ledge that may not be available. When unholstering a weapon, trigger finger always goes along the guard, not on the trigger until a threat is identified.

Calling someone selfish that carries C'd & L'd makes it sound like you see them as having no disregard for anyone's safety or welfare which when you really think about it, sounds quite absurd. It's perfectly safe unless one does not know how to properly handle firearms and treat them all as if they where loaded. You know,I'm seeing more clues on who has taken at least a single class and who hasn't among this and many other threads on the subject.

 

[BGutzman]

I think Im going to appoach the issue from the try a revolver with a empty chamber approach... at least to me its a bit better than condition 3.

If they dont change well then at least I gave it one last try and in the end its not my hide...

Thanks for all the comments!

 

[sigcurious]

What about using a holster similar to this for condition 3/Israeli carry?

Granted I have no idea if people make that style holster for other pistols, I came across it on some history or discovery channel show, in which the user was Russian and using a makarov.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Pretty much most of the people thought invading Iraq was a good idea ... just because most of the people do, or believe one thing,...

We're talking about defensive pistol-craft and doctrine, and one that is quite well tested. Perhaps you can identify a law enforcement agency in the U. S. that requires, or even permits, officers to carry without a round in the chamber.

...One of my thoughts is: it is more selfish to carry in a cocked and locked configuration,...

Then consider me selfish.

 

[dayman]

lots to read.
Personally I've never felt particularly comfortable carrying "cocked and locked", but I don't have the time or inclination to work on adding a "racking" step to my draw, so DA carry guns work better for me. At home because I do have kids I go for the "gun in top drawer, mag in second drawer, hopefully the dogs wake me up" set up.
But back to "Israeli carry" - As far as the question of what it "X" happens, and you don't have a free hand/time to rack your slide it seems pointless to conjecture. Unless you're carrying your gun cocked, unlocked, in your hand, and pointed at what you want to shoot there could always be something that prevents you from being able to use it. Racking the slide is obviously not going to be as convenient/fast as not having to rack it, but would probably work out perfectly fine most of the time - certainly more often than cocked, locked and in the glovebox.

 

[seeker_two]

Not taking sides....but I have an observation....

If you have an encounter where the VCO is close enough where you don't have time to chamber a round, you probably won't have enough time to draw & deactivate a safety, either.

You may be better off using empty-hand skills or distraction (throwing wallet on the ground) instead......

 

[Nakanokalronin]

There was a video not to long ago of a CCW holder that needed to use his handgun to defend himself. I don't remember if it was in the video or pointed out by everyone who watched it, but it was noted he was carrying in condition 1 and with the way it went down, empty chamber would of made the weapon useless.

Condition 1 does not mean that it will allow someone to always be 100% prepared ,but it's one step closer then an empty chamber. A safety can be swept off during the draw and is not a separate step like chambering a round which is a pause between unholstering and presentation.

I'm not sure where in this thread that a safety was mentioned, but we're talking about chambered or not. Let's not just talk about 1911s and guns with manual safeties but also guns like a Glock, M&P , XD, Beretta, Bersa, P64, S&W Sigma......basically a semi-auto with a round in the chamber which is what the topic is about, not C'd & L'd carry with a manual safety.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by seeker_two: If you have an encounter where the VCO is close enough where you don't have time to chamber a round, you probably won't have enough time to draw & deactivate a safety, either.

Is that contention supported by FoF training?

 

[Crow Hunter]

You may be better off using empty-hand skills or distraction (throwing wallet on the ground) instead......

Absolutely, 100% correct.

And this is much easier to do and generally more effective if you have one hand free to do this, but can still draw your weapon and utilize it one handed as needed rather than needing 2 hands to get the weapon ready to fire.

 

[JimPage]

Lost Sheep:

I apologize for the delayed reply to your query about why it's called Israeli carry.

When the Israelis were first in Israel after WWII they had many different types of arms and poorly trained fighters. They were essentially a guerilla force of untrained combatants. So empty chambers were safer for untrained people with strange guns they didn't really know how to use. Many of them had never fired a gun before.

I doubt that they still subscribe to the procedure. Although I have to point out many people are ignorant about guns. I once had a squadron commander who insisted on the chamber under the hammer of our S&W Combat Masterpieces be empty. Apparently he heard of the dangers of single action guns at a movie or on TV. Talk about ignorant. But to top off his ignorance, he also insisted that the next chamber to come up when you pulled the trigger be empty too.

Nothing like flying combat missions with your revolver only two thirds loaded. (I don't know of any of the pilots who complied)

 

[motorhead0922]

BGutzman, could it be that your friends are influenced by what they see on TV and in movies? Their is a lot of useless racking of the slide there. All it is meant for is for the audience to think "boy that guys really lookin' for trouble now!"

Do your friends equate a loaded chamber with "lookin' for trouble"?

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I recently wrote an article for Pax that covered some knife training and FOF at www.krtraining.com

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/features/the-cutting-edge-of-force-on-force-training/

If you read it, one scenario flows from a natural close up encounter on line in a mailing package store. The interaction was such that I needed at least one hand free. If one had to deploy a gun at this close distance, doing the Israeli dance probably wouldn't work.

 

[Yankee Doodle]

For whatever it's worth, I have been fortunate enough to have had some experience with Israeli firearms trainers. I can tell you from personal experience, that these guys are crazy fast, and super accurate.
Their technique works, is fairly simple to learn, and with practice becomes second nature.
These guys, and one girl, could easily beat 1 1/2 seconds, every time, from the holster, with an empty chamber. Double tap in under 2. Nothing out of the 10 ring at 15 meters. (Brownings, Berettas, SIGS, H&Ks)
Since the time I spent with them, and after months of practice, I have never carried an auto with a chambered round. I usually carry a 642, but when I carry an auto (SIG 220), this is the only way I will carry it.
The second scariest sound I have ever heard is the sound of a pistol being racked by the guy facing you. This alone can end the problem without shots being fired. I sometimes learn slow, but I do learn.
Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and this one just happens to be mine. No one is forcing you to agree, so you do what you think is best for you.
Bye the way, the first scariest is a shotgun slide from behind you.

 

[seeker_two]

Is that contention supported by FoF training?

Nope....just stuff I learner from watching Michael Janich, Rob Pincus, Mike Seeklander, Clint Smith, Massad Ayoob, etc......

Distance buys time....time buys options....

 

[Nakanokalronin]

Yankee Doodle, how did they handle getting their slides racked with an incapacitated hand, holding something with the other hand or in a position where racking the slide on a belt, shoe or ledge was not an option?

ETA: Also note that not all rear sights are set up to rack a slide on a ledge and even less so on a shoe or belt.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Speed isn't as much an issue as the inability to use both hands, IMHO.

Another FOF with Steve Moses, years ago. You are walking down a corridor and jumped by two guys. Fend off and pull the gun. Managed to get 'shots' into each. I got 'shot' in the shoulder. This is me being a bad guy. I have a long gun and crazy - I am stopped by the law. I drop my airsoft long arm. Then, as they relax at microtad - pull with one hand an airsoft pistol from my back and shoot one in the face plate before I die in a hail of fire. Now bad guys don't Israeli carry probably but the point is with two hands I won't have gotten my target before dying.

If you practice retention position firing - Israeli doesn't work well.

The Israeli carry or unchambered debate has to weigh the risks of an ND or disarm vs. the inability to get the gun into action in close quarters.

Why don't the knife guys teach two handed opening in case you slice yourself?

 

[Frank Ettin]

If you have an encounter where the VCO is close enough where you don't have time to chamber a round, you probably won't have enough time to draw & deactivate a safety,...

Maybe and maybe not. The question will be whether you have time to draw.

Disengaging the safety takes no time, at least with a 1911 or P35. If you know what you are doing, the safety is disengaged as the gun is rotated toward the target so there would actually be no time lost disengaging the safety.

Chambering a round takes time, and you still need two hands.

...just stuff I learner from watching Michael Janich, Rob Pincus, Mike Seeklander, Clint Smith, Massad Ayoob, etc......

Have you ever actually taken a class with one of them?

Having taken a class with Massad Ayoob, and having acted as an assistant instructor for him in another class, I know for a fact he teaches carrying with a round in the chamber. Pretty certain the others do as well.

...I have been fortunate enough to have had some experience with Israeli firearms trainers. I can tell you from personal experience, that these guys are crazy fast,...

But you still need two hands.

...Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and this one just happens to be mine. No one is forcing you to agree, ...

And I most assuredly do not agree.

 

[seeker_two]

Maybe and maybe not. The question will be whether you have time to draw.

This.

The draw is what takes up the most time. If you don't have time to draw, all the rest is irrelevant....

That said, I guess I'll have to take a position.....if you have a gun that can't be safely carried chambered in a holster that can't safely carry a chambered pistol, then you need to reconsider a lot of things.....only time a pistol needs to be unchambered is for cleaning, storage, or displaying to your friends....