Without reading any of this whatsoever, other than gathering from the OP that the FBI ended the debate (It is VERY rare that an FBI agent is involved in a shooting, BTW) with their choice of 9mm, I declare that the caliber debate is over because it is silly... the slim difference between 9mm, .40, and .45 has been discussed ad nauseam and almost no one has really changed their mind based off of an internet discussion. I like my .45s, but I also carry a 9mm more than anything. Why? Concealment. For a duty pistol, I like all of them.
Is the caliber debate over?
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it does come back to the one simple question. Is it effective? Reliably so?
If even 70% of the worlds police forces use the nine, it's a good endorsement. No department wants to send their men out with ineffective weapons.
Can you imagine the suit if an officer is hurt, and he can prove within reasonable doubt to a jury that it was because he was using duty issued 9mm instead of something stronger?
Doesn't seem to have happened anywhere in the united states, regardless of what department policies have been in effect. Read the subtext there and it shows that the 9 mm is good enough.
If even 70% of the worlds police forces use the nine, it's a good endorsement. No department wants to send their men out with ineffective weapons.
Can you imagine the suit if an officer is hurt, and he can prove within reasonable doubt to a jury that it was because he was using duty issued 9mm instead of something stronger?
Doesn't seem to have happened anywhere in the united states, regardless of what department policies have been in effect. Read the subtext there and it shows that the 9 mm is good enough.
Boogershooter
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I normally don't participate in these discussions but for some reason I am today. I've done numerous penetration tests and seen plenty of videos of people being shot. A few shootout videos here and there and have come to the conclusion that if it is purely a handgun fight, it's split between he who shoots the most accurate wins or he who has the last bullet wins. The spray and pray method very rarely works. Only pull the trigger on a aimed shot and always keep count of rounds fired. If you practice the round count it your brain will almost always do it everytime you start shooting. Caliber doesn't make enough difference to worry about its just proper training and the ability to perform under drastic situations.
I've been watching and reading about service caliber and defensive caliber wars my entire life. And, I grew up in an era when the .38 Special was generally considered a better defensive round than the 9mm Luger.
Back before all the engineering work on JHP bullets, back BEFORE the 9mm velocity was jacked up another 100-150fps. Back when there were only 2 choices of double stack 9mms, the Browning Hi-Power and the S&W 59.
Attitudes have really changed, even mine, as I now consider the RIGHT 9mm load to be adequate.
here are a couple of point to ponder, ...
How many 9mm fans would stay 9mm fans if they are limited to using a 1911A1?
How many would choose 9mm, or .40, over .45, if restricted to 7rnds by some kind of "safe act" law?
Or if you were restricted to a revolver??
Would you choose 9mm over .45 if you could only have a Luger (P.08) in 9mm or a 1911A1 in .45?
The point here is that it isn't the round ALONE that makes the most difference.
My other point is in my sig line,
Back before all the engineering work on JHP bullets, back BEFORE the 9mm velocity was jacked up another 100-150fps. Back when there were only 2 choices of double stack 9mms, the Browning Hi-Power and the S&W 59.
Attitudes have really changed, even mine, as I now consider the RIGHT 9mm load to be adequate.
here are a couple of point to ponder, ...
How many 9mm fans would stay 9mm fans if they are limited to using a 1911A1?
How many would choose 9mm, or .40, over .45, if restricted to 7rnds by some kind of "safe act" law?
Or if you were restricted to a revolver??
Would you choose 9mm over .45 if you could only have a Luger (P.08) in 9mm or a 1911A1 in .45?
The point here is that it isn't the round ALONE that makes the most difference.
My other point is in my sig line,
Arizona Fusilier
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As I have said before on other threads.....my greatest concern with the "they are all equal' mantra is that it is based on modern, high quality hollow point ammo.
But when the neophyte goes to the LGS and sees the price of Hydra-Shock, Critical Defense, Gold Dot, etc., and decides to buy plain Jane 115 gr FMJ for his 9mm because it's cheaper....and "equal".......well it's 1914 all over again.
But when the neophyte goes to the LGS and sees the price of Hydra-Shock, Critical Defense, Gold Dot, etc., and decides to buy plain Jane 115 gr FMJ for his 9mm because it's cheaper....and "equal".......well it's 1914 all over again.
Those were a couple of interesting posts.
Not many people really think about a round failing, they figure that the hollow points won't fail but never really go into that part when these discussions take place. A failed expansion with the best hp is only a little bit better than a plain roundh fmj. It'll at least be sharp and ragged.
Not many people really think about a round failing, they figure that the hollow points won't fail but never really go into that part when these discussions take place. A failed expansion with the best hp is only a little bit better than a plain roundh fmj. It'll at least be sharp and ragged.
My two cents as a civilian. Just because 70% of the police departments use 9mms does not make it a convincing argument in itself as a more effective round. When the Army went to M16s that didn't automatically make the M1 an ineffective rifle. They went to it for a lot of reasons, a primary one being soldiers (mainly draftees at the time) had a hard time with the recoil. I agree, all things being equal, larger capacity is better. It's a trade off and maybe for law enforcement that is the deciding factor. For a normal person carrying for self defense, if I need more than one 7 round clip I'm probably screwed. Finally, too often +p 9mm rounds are compared with normal velocity 45 rounds.
I really don't have a dog in this fight. I shoot a 45 because I'm old, used to it and shoot it decently. They'll both kill you if put in the right place.
I really don't have a dog in this fight. I shoot a 45 because I'm old, used to it and shoot it decently. They'll both kill you if put in the right place.
Boogershooter
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And to think hunters still argue over the best cartridge to kill Bambi with. We argue over handguns because 99.9% of us have never had to use one. We can only testify to what we have seen on tape or read on paper.
A co- worker also worked for the local police dept part time. He was also in his 20th year of the National Guard. He carried a 45. When him and another cop got into a shootout in Many, LA he shot 8 times thru the back glass of the suspects truck. There was a pair of blue jeans on a hanger and a shirt. The jeans were hit 4 times. 3 of the bullets never penetrated the first layer of material and we're laying in the back floorboard. The fourth round was caught between the first and second layer of material. The other cop emptied his 357 and every round went completely thru the vehicle but didn't contact anything but glass. He was hit by the suspect but luckily had his bpv on. He suffered a heart attack from the ordeal. The suspect was stopped a few minutes later by a road block and rifles.
A co- worker also worked for the local police dept part time. He was also in his 20th year of the National Guard. He carried a 45. When him and another cop got into a shootout in Many, LA he shot 8 times thru the back glass of the suspects truck. There was a pair of blue jeans on a hanger and a shirt. The jeans were hit 4 times. 3 of the bullets never penetrated the first layer of material and we're laying in the back floorboard. The fourth round was caught between the first and second layer of material. The other cop emptied his 357 and every round went completely thru the vehicle but didn't contact anything but glass. He was hit by the suspect but luckily had his bpv on. He suffered a heart attack from the ordeal. The suspect was stopped a few minutes later by a road block and rifles.
The Oooooold caliber debate.
Having carried guns on a professional level, having seen the results of many shootings and having participated in likely shoot scenarios.... My two cents...
There were times and activities where we planned for a shootout. Those times we took a .12 ga shotgun and sometimes a team of officers armed with .223 rifles. handguns were .38 special and /or 9mm pistol or revolver. Again just based on my experience... Human beings are hard to kill with a handgun. The police and armed civillians do not engage from ambush, thats another variable thats needs to be added to the argument. The tactics, shooting someone in the back of the head with a .32 is more likely to result in death or a one shot stop than a 10MM COM hit.
In sum and substance my point is that there more prominant variables than caliber in finding that perfect one stop shot cartridge. Tactics, shot placement, mental conditioning of the person shot, physical conditioning of the person shot. Just my opinion but talking about wound results based on caliber only cheats the conversation..... BTW I like .357 magnum
Having carried guns on a professional level, having seen the results of many shootings and having participated in likely shoot scenarios.... My two cents...
There were times and activities where we planned for a shootout. Those times we took a .12 ga shotgun and sometimes a team of officers armed with .223 rifles. handguns were .38 special and /or 9mm pistol or revolver. Again just based on my experience... Human beings are hard to kill with a handgun. The police and armed civillians do not engage from ambush, thats another variable thats needs to be added to the argument. The tactics, shooting someone in the back of the head with a .32 is more likely to result in death or a one shot stop than a 10MM COM hit.
In sum and substance my point is that there more prominant variables than caliber in finding that perfect one stop shot cartridge. Tactics, shot placement, mental conditioning of the person shot, physical conditioning of the person shot. Just my opinion but talking about wound results based on caliber only cheats the conversation..... BTW I like .357 magnum
Boogershooter
New member
Very strange indeed. I don't like to put names on the internet and I'm not technically savvy enough to post links. The chase/gunfight ended on hwy 6 west in sabine parish. Many La if you care to Google it. Officer pentalion was the one hit and officer trece was the one shooting the 45. The man was from Indiana if I remember correctly.
In the real world, bullets sometimes do things you don't see them do in tests.
Like stopping in some clothing. Recently there was a report from NYC (I think) where a suspect was shot several times (with "state of the art 9mm jhps) and several of the bullets stopped in the Carhartt coat the suspect was wearing.
because of the big, slow RN bullet (ball ammo) the .45acp has not only had a long reputation as a fight stopper, but also had a reputation for NOT penetrating hard object well, and even glancing off due to angle of impact.
This was known and recognized even as much as a century ago. One of the main reasons for development of the .38 Super round was the poor performance of the .45acp against car bodies of the day. Even with the extra velocity from the longer barrels of Tommyguns, the .45 was not a good choice if you had to shoot through something to get the bad guy. Worked pretty well, if you didn't, but if you did, it was often found lacking.
Another reason the .357 magnum proved so popular with police after its introduction was that it would penetrate well. The oft repeated stories about it "busting engine blocks" was probably more fancy than fact, but we seldom let facts get in the way of a good story.
Do note what the FBI (and others) used when they went after Bonnie & Clyde, mostly RIFLES, deer caliber rifles and even a couple GI BARs.
Like stopping in some clothing. Recently there was a report from NYC (I think) where a suspect was shot several times (with "state of the art 9mm jhps) and several of the bullets stopped in the Carhartt coat the suspect was wearing.
because of the big, slow RN bullet (ball ammo) the .45acp has not only had a long reputation as a fight stopper, but also had a reputation for NOT penetrating hard object well, and even glancing off due to angle of impact.
This was known and recognized even as much as a century ago. One of the main reasons for development of the .38 Super round was the poor performance of the .45acp against car bodies of the day. Even with the extra velocity from the longer barrels of Tommyguns, the .45 was not a good choice if you had to shoot through something to get the bad guy. Worked pretty well, if you didn't, but if you did, it was often found lacking.
Another reason the .357 magnum proved so popular with police after its introduction was that it would penetrate well. The oft repeated stories about it "busting engine blocks" was probably more fancy than fact, but we seldom let facts get in the way of a good story.
Do note what the FBI (and others) used when they went after Bonnie & Clyde, mostly RIFLES, deer caliber rifles and even a couple GI BARs.
I think the FBI's statement, taken at face value, implies that they believe there is a 1:1 parity in terms of practical effects in real-world shootings.
It's all getting better. As far as I can tell, that doesn't mean that they all perform more similarly than they used to, or more differently either, for that matter.
The improvement in ammo design/performance is a red herring, IMO. When the FBI originally chose the 10mm and then the .40, they did so based on wound volume calculations, not based on definitive results from real-world shootings. In other words, they switched to 10mm/.40 based on differences detected in a parameter/calculation that no one has ever been able to definitively show has a practically significant effect in real-world shootings. They did that for two reasons: First of all, because someone sold them on the idea that the parameter/calculation was telling them something important. Second, because they had to have some reasonably defensible selection criterion.
I'm sure at the time they believed that the performance of their new caliber would, over time, prove that their artificial selection criterion was valid. Instead, after nearly 30 years of trying to prove that their decision was a good one so that they could justify the extra training costs, lower capacity, poorer shootability, etc. they finally had to admit that neither they, nor anyone else, has been able to do so.
Rather than admit that they made a mistake, they tried to explain that ammo design has improved enough that 9mm now performs as well as .40. It's pretty easy to see that explanation doesn't really wash. Any technology improvements bringing benefits to the 9mm should also benefit the .40 as well and the .40 should improve in performance at the same rate, if not faster due to having additional momentum/energy for the designers to play with.
The reality is that the practically significant difference in real-world fight-stopping performance wasn't there in the first place and they've finally been forced to that conclusion after trying and failing to prove its existence for decades
It's not that the difference has gone away due to ammo design advances--it wasn't ever there to begin with. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who read Urey Patrick's paper on handgun wounding and effectiveness. He admitted in 1989 that the terminal performance differences due to caliber selection (in the context of service pistol calibers) made so little difference in the real world that it wouldn't be possible to detect it without examining huge numbers of real-world shootings. He was just more right than he realized.
They've been looking at the outcomes of real-world shootings for another quarter of a century since his paper was released and they still haven't been able to show enough of a difference to justify going above 9mm. Neither has anyone else, for that matter.
Boogershooter
New member
My very first memory of comparing the differences in handguns was about 25 years ago. I had just received a new 357 from my parents. My buddy had a spot that was a old dumping ground. We placed a old car hood against a couple of pine trees. This car hood was very heavy, it took a couple of teenage country boys to get into place. I loaded up the new 357 and shot 6 times. They all penetrated completely thru. These were the winchester 158gr jhps. I next pulled out a star model b 9mm. After the first shot I realized it didn't penetrate thru the hood. I then shot a few more times and none penetrated thru the hood. These were remington golden Saber if I remember correctly. After laughing at me, my buddy pulled out a colt 1911 with fmj's. The 45's made a deep dimple and most actually split or cracked the hood but did not pass thru. For many years I thought the 357 was the cats meow but now I found myself a 38 super fan in the 1911 for self defense.
I almost forgot, I also tried the .380 in fmj thru my mother's colt Mustang on the hood. These did make a dent but we're the only ones to actually bounce back a few feet. I've since used plywood and phone books for penetration tests. The 357 and 327 are still the hands down winners until you step up to the big bores. They penetrate and expand with much more reliability than the 9 or 45, imo it's because of the velocity.
I almost forgot, I also tried the .380 in fmj thru my mother's colt Mustang on the hood. These did make a dent but we're the only ones to actually bounce back a few feet. I've since used plywood and phone books for penetration tests. The 357 and 327 are still the hands down winners until you step up to the big bores. They penetrate and expand with much more reliability than the 9 or 45, imo it's because of the velocity.
Personally, i'ts kind of a ridiculous question in my case anyway. So I'm out in the woods with two guys, one of them gets his arm ripped off by a bear. I probably don't like anyone so much that I'd go out after a maneater with only two bullets to retrieve his arm. I'm going to have a sandwich, clean my fish, pack the trailer, and haul him back to town.
Prosthetics are really great at this point. I'm sure hell thank me.
Prosthetics are really great at this point. I'm sure hell thank me.
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