In this thread we advocate at least 10 round capacity

Status
Not open for further replies.
I feel quite adequately armed with a Sig or Kimber 380 Micro pistol as i am not "on the hunt" but rather have it to protect myself or others until Law Enforcement officers can respond .
Click to expand...

You are right about having to protect yourself, LE will document what happened after its over.

Assuming 7 shots in a 380...
What about missing?
What about shots that are not well placed?
What about an attacker that is using drugs, psychotic, hard to stop?
Even with lethal shot placement, an attacker may continue aggressive action for 10 seconds or more.

If someone has rationalized a pocket pistol as sufficient, me providing examples or logic contrary to their belief is likely a waste of my time.
 
If someone has rationalized a pocket pistol as sufficient, me providing examples or logic contrary to their belief is likely a waste of my time.
Click to expand...

The same statement can be made for those who have rationalized a major difference between a "normal" carry handgun and a pocket pistol for defensive purposes. Or the major advantage of 15 rounds over 5. If I cannot score a "good" hit with 5 three times the bullets in the air just means three times the chance of collateral damage.

What defensive situation are you envisioning where 5 (or 7) shots does not allow you to end the situation or retreat but 15 (or 17) does?

Somehow we have gotten the idea that "better" in terms of stopping ability or round count in a defensive handgun is equivalent to good. Every situation involving aggressive human attackers where I would feel inadequately armed with a micro .380 (oddly I don't own one) I would feel inadequately armed with a G20 and Underwood ammo.

I get where an on-duty officer, with a duty to "run in where others run out", is in a different situation and don't intend to discuss those situations.

Edit: I'm all for people carrying whatever they want. However some of the threads that advocate that a particular decision is somehow superior to another are built on some questionable assumptions IMO.
 
Last edited:
QUOTE: "...What defensive situation are you envisioning where 5 (or 7) shots does not allow you to end the situation or retreat but 15 (or 17) does?..."

You can't? I'm retired le but I can assure you that in any "shoot-out", people under extreme stress (i.e., engaged in a shoot-out) are probably going to miss with at least a few of their rounds, police included, before the matter is settled.

It is not hard to envision many scenarios ("civilian" and le alike) where having a few extra rounds on board might make a difference in a life or death situation. It's been my responsibility over a thirty year career to interview police officers as well as non-le who became involved in a gun fight and I can assure you that nobody ever complained about having too many cartridges at their disposal.
 
Last edited:
It is not hard to envision many scenarios ("civilian" and le alike) where having a few extra rounds on board might make a difference in a life or death situation. It's been my responsibility over a thirty year career to interview police officers as well as non-le who became involved in a gun fight and I can assure you that nobody ever complained about having too many cartridges at their disposal.
Click to expand...

I don't doubt there are scenarios that have played out where the 14th round out of the barrel was vitally important. As you note there is no penalty for having extra ammo at the end of the day.

However consider how far the situation has deteriorated for me to need that 11th shot I either carry a Ruger SP101 + a speed loader, a G20 with 10 rounds loaded (9+1 - the magazines rattle at full capacity), or a Sig P938 when I need something for just a pocket (though this is likely to switch to a LCRX at some point to keep battery of arms less complicated).

I have failed to recognize and avoid a situation prior to violence becoming likely.

I have failed to deescalate the situation verbally or by literally throwing money at it (I will be giving up my wallet).

I have failed with 10 rounds to put a round effectively on target OR my attacker is so determined that effective shot placement has not stopped him (or her). If it is the former we have gone down to luck playing a major role. If it is the later I better have a plan for engaging my opponent beyond my firearm.

The above failure includes having been unable to create an avenue for my escape from the situation.

I get that some people feel more comfortable with options having high round capacity. I'm not arguing that one should not carry it. However when people argue that it is only logical to carry such I question what situation they are actually preparing for and the likelihood of it occurring.

IMO the chances of the situation occurring where I need that 11th round AND can effectively change the situation with it to allow my escape is so extremely low as to not merit concern on my part.
 
Im blue collar which means bend, stooping, occasionally crawling through boats, therefore a fullsize oistol on the hip is a no-no, the only other option for me then is pocket carry. So I carry a kahr CM9 on work days.

My full, out in public rig is a glock 19 with a spare mag and sometimes with the kahr still in the pocket if I wanted to arm the wife. Thats a total of 38 rounds. If I need more than that Ill be famous.

Woods carry (depending where we are) is my 629 in 44 mag, granted only 6 shots but I run ard cast, flat meplat bullets at about 1300fps, that'll run length ways through and elk, should take care of almost any issue I need to shoot my way out of if I do my part.
 
With all due respect to LEO's and what they do for us,there is more than one profile for the firearms proficiency of LEO's.
While SOME LEO's are advanced to expert handgunners,most are not.
Many had NO firearms experience before they got their government job.
Many are SUPPOSED to get only one day a month getting any range time.Of those,a fair number figure out a way to get out of it.

Many of us have seen footage of LEO's in a situation where they needed to use their handgun. In too many cases,the LEO assumes a body position akin to being surprised naked in the shower as they do a mag dump as fast as they can pull the trigger.17 rds,19 rds,21 rds,makes no difference.They aren't evenlooking over the top of the slide,and the noisemaking has no effect.Other than a bunch of stray shots flying around.

As I said,all due respect to the LEO's and the job they do,but I give NO credibility to the idea that an LEO or ex LEO is automatically an authority or expert with a handgun.

One of my mentors in gunsmithing was an armorer for a local dept.ALL of the bullet holes in his shop were put there by LEOs.

And generally speaking,when LEO's show up to even a cowboy action shoot to"See what y'all do" they go home feeling a serious need to get better.

IMO,the routine cop who has a weapon as part of the job is not in the same league with civilian firearms enthusiasts who practice for excellence because it is what they love to do.

You can't miss fast enough to stay alive.Hits count.

A disciplined,skilled shooter with 7 rounds who gets 7 hits is far more effective,and faster,than the guy who spews a hicap mag dump of 21 rounds without having the sights.

Nothing against mag capacity,but making hits beats making noise.

It CAN happen that someone with 21 rounds vs 7 will be more about making noise than making hits.

That said,I can easily convince myself that I "need" an open class,comped,mini-red dot equipt ,double stack Caspian or STI 38 Super race gun to carry for some social occasions.Certainly it would be ideal to have in hand should the moment arrive. Too bad I can't afford everything I want.
 
Last edited:
QUOTE: "...I have failed with 10 rounds to put a round effectively on target..."

You posited "5 (or7)".

QUOTE: "... IMO the chances of the situation occurring where I need that 11th round AND can effectively change the situation with it to allow my escape is so extremely low as to not merit concern on my part..."

If we're talking about the statistical chance of even ever being involved in a gunfight, then most of us, including the police, would never need to carry a gun of any kind in the first place. But, of course, statistics don't mean much when they don't conform to the expected-which is why some of us don't rely on "the chances of the situation", and plan accordingly.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating that everyone tote an "open-class, comped, mini-red dot equipt, double-stack Caspian or STI .38 Super race gun" as their everyday carry. Most of the time, I get by fine with my Smith & Wesson Model 12 or my Colt Cobra six-shot revolvers, along with a speed-loader. But, as you advocated, I make it my business to "avoid situations prior to violence becoming likely" and will seek to defuse any confrontation before it escalates or look for an avenue of escape.

However, there are times when I can't avoid being in a high-crime, drug-infested area and for those, albeit rare times, my SIG Model 227, along with a spare magazine or two, accompany me. Plain common sense should dictate the mode of carry most of us choose.
 
QUOTE: "...I give NO credibility to the idea that an LEO or ex LEO is automatically an authority or expert with a handgun..."

I personally don't know anyone who does.

QUOTE: "...You can't miss fast enough to stay alive.Hits count..."

Again, I personally know of no one who would disagree with that. It's sort of like saying, "you need air to breathe" or "water is wet."

QUOTE: "...It CAN happen that someone with 21 rounds vs 7 will be more about making noise than making hits..."

It also CAN happen that someone with 21 rounds vs 7 will be making hits along with the noise.

QUOTE: "...A disciplined,skilled shooter with 7 rounds who gets 7 hits is far more effective,and faster,than the guy who spews a hicap mag dump of 21 rounds without having the sights..."

A disciplined, skilled shooter with 21 rounds at his disposal and gets 21 hits (if needed) is far more effective and faster than the guy who spews a mag dump of 7 rounds without having the sights and has an empty gun.

All of which is to say that there's no substitute for sound training and much practice (water is wet :))-it doesn't matter how much or how little ammunition your gun holds. But there's no downside to having extra ammunition on board if the occasion calls for it.
 
QUOTE: "...I give NO credibility to the idea that an LEO or ex LEO is automatically an authority or expert with a handgun..."

I personally don't know anyone who does.
Click to expand...
I do(know people).
QUOTE: "...You can't miss fast enough to stay alive.Hits count..."

Again, I personally know of no one who would disagree with that. It's sort of like saying, "you need air to breathe" or "water is wet."
Click to expand...
I think there are many documented civilian cases in the US where it seems evident, at least IMO, misses did in fact save peoples lives as it forced one side or the other to retreat or similar. I forget how many rounds the US military is up to per confirmed kill, but it is a lot, so they definitely feel, as an organization, misses can have an effect.
I've never heard of or met ANYONE who was in a gunfight and said 'I should have brought less ammo. I really only needed the first mag and not even all of it.'
I still say more mags less gun though.
 
7+1 in my P239 40 with the spare 7 round mag in my left front pocket makes me feel okay about the fire power. That's my EDC most of the time.

When I'm wearing a jacket though it's my P320 357 sig; 12+1 with spare 12 round mag.
 
If I am facing multiple attackers its a desperation situation anyways. Might I be able to extract myself from 2 armed attackers? Yeh I have a chance. Three it starts to get REALLY iffy. Four... I'm not winning that fight regardless of how many rounds I have.
Click to expand...

That depends on your mindset and what you're up against. Four determined attackers with firearms? Yeah you probably won't win that fight. What about four guys with knives, or baseball bats, or whatever. That would be possible. Approach every fight with the idea that you're going to win until you've either been stomped into the dirt or not breathing anymore.
 
With all due respect to LEO's and what they do for us,there is more than one profile for the firearms proficiency of LEO's.
While SOME LEO's are advanced to expert handgunners,most are not.
Many had NO firearms experience before they got their government job.
Many are SUPPOSED to get only one day a month getting any range time.Of those,a fair number figure out a way to get out of it.
Click to expand...

I don't know why people keep repeating all these idiotic stereotypes?

:confused:

It doesn't even makes sense given there are thousands of departments across the country each with a different policy, different standards, different training.


And generally speaking,when LEO's show up to even a cowboy action shoot to"See what y'all do" they go home feeling a serious need to get better.

IMO,the routine cop who has a weapon as part of the job is not in the same league with civilian firearms enthusiasts who practice for excellence because it is what they love to do.
Click to expand...

I have never seen a cowboy action target shoot back, nor even pose a threat to anyone.

I've never heard of or met ANYONE who was in a gunfight and said 'I should have brought less ammo. I really only needed the first mag and not even all of it.'
Click to expand...

Me neither. Of course other than when I was in the Army I never heard anyone start their day with; "Today I will be getting in a gun fight, better pack some extra mags...."

Cuz if I were starting my day that way I would plan to bring some artillery, air support and a bunch of close personal friends.
 
More rounds are generally better but concealed carry is a matter of compromise. Carry as much as technology, wardrobe, and personal comfort will allow you to carry. These are natural and reasonable limitations. Just beware of artificial and necessarily arbitrary limitations imposed by government.
 
Last edited:
That depends on your mindset
Click to expand...

Based on responses, some have a fairly lackadaisical mindset:
"If I can't get it done with 5-7 rounds, then I'm done...."

Some rely on psychic ability to predict the actions of others:
"I live in a good area"... "low risk"
Based on that ^ criminals always stick to their own neighborhood, avoid the "good" ones.
Nobody taking drugs is allowed in the "good" area.
Nobody will ever rob, mug, attack, ect... in the "good" area (based on historical data). ;)
I'm not sure why one even bothers taking up space in their pocket when they know nothing is going to happen. :rolleyes:
 
Based on responses, some have a fairly lackadaisical mindset:
"If I can't get it done with 5-7 rounds, then I'm done...."
Click to expand...

What is the scenario where 5-7 rounds does not create an avenue for escape or otherwise end the confrontation that 14 does? I'm really curious as to the scenarios people envision when they argue less than X (10, 14, 17 plus Y spare magazines) is not adequate. I accept there is a limit to my skills and there is no purpose in outfitting myself to be Jason Bourne.

Earlier a scenario was mentioned involving four attackers with knives. There is a limit to distance at which I can engage an attacker AND claim self-defense. Let's just assume that distance to be about 7 yards. By the time I have engaged the second attacker with a firearm (assuming they are determined and semi-competent attackers) I better have a plan for engagement at hand to hand distance.

As to my parsing of law enforcement from my discussion: it has little to do with perceived skill level and more to do with duty. I have no duty to engage those four attackers with knives in any way. In fact if I see them down the street I can simply make a turn and walk away. Law enforcement operates on a different duty.

The best argument for large capacity, is, IMO, the idea that it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. However this is not necessarily a cogent argument in itself. After all the same argument could be made about a M1A1 tank in one's garage.
 
In this thread I advocate carrying a gun.

If every American carried a 5 shot revolver or 7 shot pocket 380 crime would be cut by 90% tomorrow.

Yes, there are much better guns than the options above for carry/fighting. But, the best gun in the world is the one you have on you.
Click to expand...

Boom.


Go with an HK USP 9 Compact or HK P2000.

Glock 43 or 42 is good.

Smith and Wesson J-Frames are awesome too.
 
In this thread people that rationalize less than 10 rounds hijack my thread advocating more.
Click to expand...

I don't think it works quite that way. There are two sides to every story.Feel free to express your thoughts or opinions,but to then state "Only those who agree or think the same way I do may post" is unrealistic.

A different point of view generates dialogue and discussion.

I myself have observed and AGREE! (particularly since Orlando) that our world has changed,and our need to be armed has gone well beyond the armed robber at the convenience store.

I have a very nice 45 ACP Commander clone.I myself wanted something more as an option.I actually bought a 38 Super slide and was debating getting a Limited 10 80 % receiver,vs a Caspian double stack,vs an STI.
Practical reality invaded my brain,and for a whole lot less money I bought a much lighter M+P 9 C.
I did choose a double stack 9mm,for the reasons You agree with.

Part of why I made a case in opposition(to the OP) is the way you disrespected the 1911 gunners." This thread ain't for your kind". It rubbed me a bit wrong,and brought out my contrary side.

If I started ANY thread that said " This is a (xxxxxx gun) thread,and you (yyyyy gun ) guys can go pound sand" I would be very disappointed if the yyyyy guys remained silent. How about " Kel Tecs Rule!! You Glock guys find another thread" Really???

Whether a 1911 or an 8 shot Shield,first rule is having a gun.

YES,I agree,ABSOLUTELY, Jerry Miculek exists. And yes,I agree,a skilled,diciplined shooter with a 21 rd mag can put 2 COM and one to the head at 7 targets with one mag .Shades of " Now I know you boys was just funning a little,but my mule don't see it that way.So if you'll just apologise to my mule,like I know you will"

Doot doo doo doo doo doot. 7 coffins.

Yeah,I get it.Light the little cheroot.

No denying,mag capacity is good,But be careful not to over rate it.

Surely you are aware of a tendency for LEO's packing double stack 9's to do an ineffective cyclic rate mag dump with almost no effect on target.

How often have you heard of "Police fire 56 rounds at ....."

We had a situation like that near my town.Hostage situation in a restaurant.Bad guy started killing.An old man,innocent,attemped to escape out a rest room window.Multiple cops mag dumped double stack 9mm's at him.
They did hit him enough to kill him.

There is plenty of old Viet Nam footage of GI's holding an M-16over their heads and burning a mag full auto at space.I even understand that may have some military value.Till they assess that the ammo situation is down to less than one magazine per man.

Yes,with skill and discipline,magazine capacity will be an advantage.

But the single stack guy who fires 5 rounds,then MOVES to COVER as he hits the magazine release and puts in a full one,still with one in the chamber,

Is in a far superior position than the guy who relies on mag capacity and is standing still blazing away.

You are absolutely right,a shooter CAN have the same skill and discipline with a High Cap,but observation of human behavior tells me it is seldom so.

Its easier and a lot more fun ,and feels powerful to fire 20+ rounds.

Meanwhile,the guy with the Charter Arms Bulldog finds his sights,shoots one,and puts one 44 spl slug through your sternum.He still has 4 more in the wheel.
And,he disappeared behind cover so you had time to gurgle away.
 
Last edited:
QUOTE: "...You are absolutely right,a shooter CAN have the same skill and discipline with a High Cap,but observation of human behavior tells me it is seldom so..."

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that what you allege is true. As a fellow keen observer of "human behavior" I am left with the opinion that ammunition capacity has no bearing whatever on the efficiency of rounds expended by a shooter. It's the same old, hackneyed hyperbole that some use to make the argument that semi-auto rifles in the hands of hunters leads to a "spray and pray" mind-set.

Balderdash! As I opined earlier in this thread, sound training and much practice is what determines a shooter's skill set and discipline, whether you're armed with a machine-gun or a single-shot derringer.

QUOTE: "...But the single stack guy who fires 5 rounds,then MOVES to COVER as he hits the magazine release and puts in a full one,still with one in the chamber,

Is in a far superior position than the guy who relies on mag capacity and is standing still blazing away..."

The single-stack guy who fires 5 rounds, then MOVES to COVER as he hits the magazine release and puts in a full one, still with one in the chamber (the infamous "tactical reload"),

Is in a far inferior (tactical) position than the guy who is armed with a double-stack magazine, who fires 5 rounds, then MOVES to COVER and still has 10 rounds left in his magazine, one round still in the chamber and a spare magazine, loaded with 15 rounds at the ready.

Again, all else being equal in terms of training and ability, there is simply no downside (other than maybe ease of carry and/or concealment issues) to carrying a pistol having a large capacity pistol if you ever have to survive a gunfight-and this opinion is coming from a man who, earlier in this thread, conceded that his usual carry piece is a six round revolver.
 
Last edited:
Advocate whatever you like, carry whatever you like. Honestly what anyone carries is their business.

I feel adequately protected with my .45 acp XDs with 5 and 1 in the chamber and a spare 6 round magazine. But then again I really have no intention in engaging in an OK corral style shootout. I intend on shooting just enough to end the threat or to allow me to withdraw. I'm not a cop so I have no obligation to stay engaged with the bad guy if I and my friends and loved ones can escape.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top