In this thread we advocate at least 10 round capacity

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In this thread we advocate at least 10 round capacity


Who is "we", anyway? ;)

I think I only own 5 pistols that can use 10-rd magazines (1 uses 12-rd). The rest all use standard 6, 7, 8 or 9-rd magazines, and then there's all my revolvers (5 & 6 shots).

I don't "advocate" some specific minimum magazine capacity, myself. Those proselytizing days are behind me, back when I was an "enthusiast" for caliber, capacity, etc.

I've carried issued pistols that used 7, 8, 9, 12, 14 and 15-rd magazines, and the calibers included 9, .40 & .45. My "favorite" of the bunch was an 8+1 capacity 3913TSW, which I actually bought when we were given the opportunity to buy one issued handgun when they were being phased out.

The current demand for smallish single stack defensive pistols has given the market some nicely done pistols that use 5-8 round magazines, and for the folks who simply can't do with less than 10-rds, there's a decent selection of smallish double stacks. Pretty good choices nowadays, compared to the 70's & 80's. ;)
 
I would think that the way it's worded that the "we" would be everyone that advocates the use of 10 or more rounds. Which to me would mean that if you don't, you have nothing but argument to add to the thread. I, and I believe the OP, would have just liked to see a thread of like minded shooters discussing their reasons for their shared opinion. But I guess too many people just have a need to butt in with their own opinions........
 
I feel adequately protected with my .45 acp XDs with 5 and 1 in the chamber and a spare 6 round magazine. But then again I really have no intention in engaging in an OK corral style shootout. I intend on shooting just enough to end the threat or to allow me to withdraw. I'm not a cop so I have no obligation to stay engaged with the bad guy if I and my friends and loved ones can escape.

And if you do find yourself in said shootout, are you going to call "TIME!"? The proceed to tell the attacker / attackers that you don't intend to engage in a corral style shootout and that you are not a cop nor do you have an obligation to stay engaged with him / them? That's a solid plan, bub.

I also didn't get the memo that we have an option to avoid certain altercations.


If we need more than five rounds it is most certain we are dead.

Are you going to say that if you do need more than 5 rounds?
You know, multiple attackers, missed shot, rounds that don't hit vitals, possible barries, no? Doesn't matter? Just get the job done in 5 rounds or less? (my head hurts)
 
Well okay, then ... didn't mean to butt in or denigrate. I've done both (10+ or less than 10), so I thought I might have a seat at the table.

The obvious advantage to having more rounds is being able to shoot more between having to load.

Whether that's a practical advantage is going to be situationally dependent and shooter dependent. Take your pick and hope for the best outcome.

Folks who spent so many years carrying 5/6 shot revolvers, or single stack pistols with 7-9 round magazines, may not be quite so fixated or adamant on how much of a priority or advantage having hi-cap magazines may be. (Yes, even back when the most common double stack pistols were Hi-Powers & M59's, it was typical to here them referred to as "hi-caps" because they held more rounds than revolvers or single stack pistols. ;) )

While I've talked to cops who have been in shooting incidents who have fired 1 or more of their hi-cap magazines, the significant number of them I've known have fired between 1 and 8 shots during an incident (those are low/high counts, and cover both on & off-duty incidents).

I've listened to a number of other firearms instructors over the years who have reported similar round counts from among their people.

The type of unusual incidents we sometimes hear about where cops (let alone private citizens) have burned through their primary and/or spare magazines are noteworthy more for being infrequent, odd and unusual, than for being the rule of the day.

Now, having a pistol that uses 10-rd magazines gives you 4-5 more rounds than a snub or standard size revolver, and perhaps 2-5 more rounds than some smaller single stack pistols.

Choosing personal handguns for dedicated defensive roles is an equipment choice that's certainly subject to task-oriented considerations, as well as considering the likely risk assessment potential.

If believing that having more than 5-9 rounds is a necessary, or even just a desirable, priority ... then that's an individual's decision. :cool:
 
fastbolt you live in the restrictive state of CA and even "they" think 10 rounds in the magazine reasonable.
Ironic that some attempt to justify less, when even the restrictive places think 10 rounds may be required.

Your prior experience as LE as related to civilian carry now, is no different than me; I have prior LE experience too. ;)
 
So is 10+2 enough capacity for a mag fed 12 gauge? Because I own one. And it's my deer gun :D

My carry pistol holds 17+1 :rolleyes:
 

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After the fed & state mag/feeding device capacity laws took effect, and I had an exemption as a peace officer, I only ever bought a single pistol that used hi-cap mags, and those were only 12-rounders.

In other words, even though I could buy any hi-cap gun and get the "standard" mags for it, with the sole exception of a SW9940 I picked up in 2000, I've ever only been interested in buying off-duty/carry weapons, and the ones which have interested me have come with standard mags of 6, 7, 8, 9 & 10-rd capacities.

When the state (CA) appeared as though it was getting ready to remove the exemption for honorably retired LE (for keeping hi-cap mags purchased before retirement), I ordered close to a dozen 10-rd mags for my SW9940. Now, since that particular bit of legislation failed to pass, and both the current law and the pending ballot initiative have kept the retired LE exemption in place, I'll probably keep those 10-rd mags "in reserve".

Bottom line, after enough years of having to carry full-size revolvers and hi-cap pistols for work, my own collection of handguns evolved to mostly small & smaller pistols, and a lot of 5-shot snub revolvers. I've still got my .357 & .44 MAG DA revolvers, and my 1911's, and an early Ruger KP90DC, but the only other full-size pistols I own are that SW9940 and an early production M&P 45.

It's the smaller pistols & revolvers that best served my off-duty needs before retirement, and continue to serve my retirement CCW needs.

I'm just not a "hi-cap" kind of guy. Fine for work, especially if someone else is footing the bill (they issued me a M&P 40 15+1 last year).

High capacity just isn't as high on my personal list of priorities as it is for some others. I'm fine with anywhere from 5-10 rounds, in a broad range of calibers ... and yes, I run my small guns just as hard on the training/qual ranges as I do my larger guns. I see it as necessary in order to maintain skill with them.
 
Thought I read this very topic in another forum. My two cents.. My Spring/Summer EDC is a Springfield XDS in 9mm. I run the 8+1 mag which only slightly extends the grip. I can get three full fingers on it but there's no more room to spare. Spare magazines carry 9 rounds. I don't feel under gunned with 9 rounds. But, ten is optimal. To get there, I would need to want to carry a double stack. I'm a fan of this particular setup. I haven't sound a single stack that I prefer over the XDS.. Yet. Open to suggestions. I take note that there are some fairly slim double stacks out there. These would appeal to me as well because ten rounds is optimal. I believe that the primary weapon should hold enough ammo to end the initial threat. Performing a reload under high stress/combat conditions is extremely difficult without extensive training and experience. It would be wise to consider turning to a back up .38 if you were to run dry in a fight. Spare mags are a necessity especially in the case of a FTF/FTE. Murphy's Law holds that your weapon will function flawlessly until it's needed for a fight.
 
Constantine

I feel adequately protected with my .45 acp XDs with 5 and 1 in the chamber and a spare 6 round magazine. But then again I really have no intention in engaging in an OK corral style shootout. I intend on shooting just enough to end the threat or to allow me to withdraw. I'm not a cop so I have no obligation to stay engaged with the bad guy if I and my friends and loved ones can escape.

And if you do find yourself in said shootout, are you going to call "TIME!"? The proceed to tell the attacker / attackers that you don't intend to engage in a corral style shootout and that you are not a cop nor do you have an obligation to stay engaged with him / them? That's a solid plan, bub.

I also didn't get the memo that we have an option to avoid certain altercations.


1) The odds of me finding myself in an OK Corral are pretty miniscule. But lets be honest if I get in a shootout with 7 or 8 bad guys, like the Earp's did, except by myself the odds of survival really don't increase if I have 6 or 20 rounds. I would much prefer to avoid the confrontation altogether if possible.

2) I am not a cop, hence I do not have any obligation at all to engage a bad guy unless he is threatening me or my family. I am not Wyatt Earp and have no desire to be a hero and intervene in losing situations that do not involve me.

3) You may not be able to avoid certain altercations, but odds are you can avoid far more than you ever find yourself involved in. Situational awareness and common sense can save you a ton of trouble.

4) Do whatever you want, carry whatever you want, get involved whenever you want, it really doesn't matter to me. I spend enough time risking my life for others as a firefighter, I see no need to prove anything to you or anyone else just because I carry a gun for protection. If I can have a positive effect on a situation I may choose to intervene, but my first obligation is to my family.

Try to relax, my comments were not directed at you and were simply my opinion. Honestly, agree, disagree, life goes on either way.
 
Fair enough P5:cool: There are few topics that fan the flames like discussions of caliber or capacity. I think there is value in the discussion and it makes for spirited debate. Weapon and ammunition selection are also in that class. While I enjoy the exchange, I think situational awareness, training and skill are far more important to surviving a gun fight. It all makes for interesting conversation...
 
Orlando, San Bernardo, Chattanooga, Aurora, Sandy Hook, Columbine, Heath, ... would any of those merit "warranted" prior to the incident.

To be quite honest I'd a lot rather have more accurate than more rounds, after 5 rounds if the shooter(s) isn't(aren't) down you're going to have their attention and that's gonna suck. Yep I still want just 5 rounds in any of those situations an 03A3 would be gooder;)
 
If we can just "opt out" of situations requiring more than X-amount of rounds I'm just going to go ahead and opt out at "0" and avoid needing to use a gun at all. :D

Carry as much as you are comfortable with and accept that it may or may not be enough. It's a compromise.
 
QUOTE: "... But lets be honest if I get in a shootout with 7 or 8 bad guys, like the Earp's did, except by myself the odds of survival really don't increase if I have 6 or 20 rounds..."

Well, unless you refuse to use them, of course your odds of survival increase if you have more rounds to use against multiple assailants. Nothing guarantees you'll survive anything, it's just a matter of stacking the odds in your favor whenever possible/practical.

QUOTE: "...Try to relax, my comments were not directed at you and were simply my opinion..."

No need to be condescending. Constantine was merely expressing his opinions (good ones in my opinion).
 
Back to advocating 10 rounds or more...

CDW4ME
My main carry lately has been a Glock 21 which I carry appendix IWB + a spare magazine and 9mm in pocket as option #2.
If not the 21, then a Glock 23 (13 + 1 either way)

I recently bought a Glock 22 which is not ready for carry yet; I can see the 22 being an option to the 21, couple more rounds, still 40 caliber.

My 20 is another alternative to the 21, couple more rounds, still 40 caliber, higher KE.
I typically go for the 21 because I like the combination of big bullets with higher capacity.

For those who are considering going from lower capacity or are undecided...

As can be seen in this video, some people are hard to stop:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e75_1464135562
Sounds / looks like it took ~7 rounds to stop one guy with a knife; he could have just as easily been running toward a civilian as a cop.

A woman shot an intruder 5 times and he got into a car & drove away:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/georgia-mother-hides-children-shoots-intruder-5-times-during-home-invasion-police-say/

Guy took 14 rounds of 45 acp, 6 supposedly fatal:
https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/

Took four rounds to make a guy stop eating someones face:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/face-eating-attack-possibly-linked-bath-salts-miami/story?id=16451452

Note: All four of those involve just one attacker.
 
What those stories tell me is regardless of round count one better have a backup plan and be ready to carry it out. An SP101 probably makes a decent club
 
Yeah it ain't like the movies, no matter the caliber.

There's a video at Live Leak of a Palestinian knifer being shot by a citizen with an Uzi, then two other citizens with handguns, then an Israeli cop. I count 26 rounds going into him. He's on the ground after just the first three rounds from the Uzi, lying still. Then he sits up and receives more from the Uzi and the citizens with the hand guns. He stands up and approaches another citizen with a handgun and is shot several more times. He falls. Lies still. They lower their guns and walk up to him. Yep, he sits up again.

He finally went over on his side and bled out.
 
dgludwig

QUOTE: "... But lets be honest if I get in a shootout with 7 or 8 bad guys, like the Earp's did, except by myself the odds of survival really don't increase if I have 6 or 20 rounds..."

Well, unless you refuse to use them, of course your odds of survival increase if you have more rounds to use against multiple assailants. Nothing guarantees you'll survive anything, it's just a matter of stacking the odds in your favor whenever possible/practical.

If I am in the mall, or on the street, and 7 or 8 guys are causing trouble and displaying guns, or already shooting, I am getting my family the hell out of there and not shooting at all unless I have to in order to escape. That sir is called a loser and only a dumb ass would stand there and engage 7 or 8 bad guys with guns with nothing more than a pistol. The police may have an obligation to do that, they are not dumb asses by the way, but I do not. I sure as hell am not going to run away spraying and praying with a high capacity magazine hitting who knows who or what. That is stupid and that is how bystanders get shot and killed. Again do as you wish, as shall I.
QUOTE: "...Try to relax, my comments were not directed at you and were simply my opinion..."

No need to be condescending. Constantine was merely expressing his opinions (good ones in my opinion).

I suppose the smart ass comments by Constantine and calling me bub were expressed with the highest respect. Right? If you call me out for being condescending to someone who was condescending to me does that make you blind or just a friend of his and not mine? I responded in kind to his snotty attitude towards me, especially ridiculous when my first post wasn't even addressed to him.

Again, I don't care what any of you do in a shoot out situation, it doesn't effect me at all. My primary obligation is to my family and if I am shot dead playing cowboy to satisfy your macho need for me to do so who benefits? Not my family, and certainly not me. I would rather avoid a gun fight if possible.
 
SocialAnarchist no one cares what you carry or what your requirements are for engaging in a gunfight. Your posts in this thread are all sharply critical. You don't like the premise of the OP. That's OK, but you can't be snarky and then be offended when you get snarky in return. If you don't like higher capacity or 9 mm handguns, why get involved in the thread?
 
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