I'm SO SICK of this illegal alien situation!

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Spoon feeding time again!:rolleyes:
At this time, in the nation as a whole, yes.
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I thought I've been saying that all along?
Immigration laws are what they are, like it or not.
There might be more, but I can only think of 2 ways to get into this country.
One is by following those immigration laws and coming here LEGALLY, regardless of the hurdles involved.
The second is ILLEGALLY crossing our border in some manner and disappearing into our society to do whatever it is you came to do.
If the laws are unjust, than change them.
But until then, those laws should be followed.
And if you are caught, you should be deported.
And any company that hired you should be sanctioned in some way.
We are not talking about religious persecution, the treatment, or even existence, of slaves or anything else.
Simply the law as it pertains to immigration.
We have the right AND the responsibility to screen everyone that comes to America to the best our present day ability.
If you don't like it, too bad.
Do something to change it.
 
Ummm... the military is very different from regular civilian life. For a long time soldiers from some states couldn't even vote, freedom of speech doesn't apply etc. But technically if an order is out of line you are supposed to oppose it.
 
You are going to dance around this and parse words any way you can, but again, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, the dominant language of the United States is ENGLISH.
And until there is a massive demographic change in our nation, English is the way we communicate.
No matter what corner of the globe you come from, learning English is part of becoming an American.
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Again, it's not. Our version of the language (known as American English) is different enough from true English to be considered a seperate language, not a dialect. The dominant language used to be English, now it's American English which happens to be a language that has incorporated many others, Spanish among them.

You're right, until there is a massive demographic change this particular language is the way most of us communicate. That does not mean others cannot choose to communicate in their native language. Plus, the major demographic is possible to change and I'm perfectly fine with that. Culture evolves.
In a broader sense, you are correct.
I did not earn the 1960 Falcon Stationwagon my uncle left me, but I sure as hell love and respect it.
Sorry!
Wrong choice of words.
But that is a "thing".
Are you as careful with a rental car as you are with your own?
Are you a little more messy in a hotel room than you are in your own house?
If scores and scores of people are given a free membership to a very nice gym, do you really think they are going to take as much care of the place than if they had to pay $1500 a year in membership fees?
That's what I "thought" I conveyed.
In general, it's human nature not to to care for something AS WELL as you would if you either own it or earned it.
Been to any public housing lately?
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But it goes back to the point that neither you nor I have earned our citizenship by your logic. We were simply born here. We did nothing to work for it, absolutely nothing. Yet we both respect our membership in this great country more than just about anything else. The point is that you don't have to spend fifteen years becoming a citizen to respect it. You don't have to spend three years getting a work visa to respect the laws of a country.
Until that happens, follow the rules as they are.
So you agree that people should be stopped from entering this country illegally?
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Yes, but I think it's foolish to suggest ridiculous solutions like a massive wall or mass deportation. That makes about as much sense as us RKBA supporters saying "well shucks, of course we should all own nukyular weapons! those are considered arms and we have the right to bear 'em!" It's counterproductive. Compromise is necessary. The problem with illegal immigration is not the culture war, it's the crime that comes with it. If it was easier for honest, hard-working, law abiding folks to come here to live and work then they wouldn't bother coming here illegally. That would mean the only people doing so would be the criminals and the extremely rare "terrist", making them much, much easier to spot and stop.

I your mind, how many languages should we honor before it becomes too? much?
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As far as signs put up by the government, I'm fine with American English being the only one. I wouldn't mind an official language as long as we consider the folks of Puerto Rico and other territories that are born American citizens yet have no requirement to learn the language. Maybe we don't have a right to own those territories in the first place...hmm....

Anyways, if I own a business and only want to cater to folks that speak spanish, why does that bother you? Just don't shop at my store. :confused:
 
I suppose they put "CRIMINAL" or "TERRORIST" on their application?
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Does anyone put "CRIMINAL" or "TERRORIST" on an application to join the military? Does anyone put "DEADBEAT" on a credit application? Of course not; there are ways to check those things.

How old are you man?
That's perfect reasoning for a 12yr old!
So what is your point in that remark?
Laws should NOT be followed?
You're working awful hard to twist things around here.
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I imagine his point was that just because a law exists does not make it just. Many unjust and irrational laws are on the books today. Just because it's illegal to own a 15 round magazine in California does not make it wrong to do so.
If the laws are unjust, than change them.
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I think that's what many of us are suggesting should happen :p
But until then, those laws should be followed.
And if you are caught, you should be deported.
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Certainly! I do agree that immigration laws should be followed to the letter! However, it's obvious that our immigration laws are not working nor can they be properly enforced. Thus we should take a hard look at why they're being broken. The obvious reason is that it's more appealing to get here illegally. Make it more appealing to get here legally and we lose the major part of the problem.

I support open immigration with borders sealed tighter'n a dolphin's sphincter. A criminal backround check and blood test to ensure there are no communicable diseases being brought in should be the only requirements for a work visa.
 
if I own a business and only want to cater to folks that speak spanish, why does that bother you?
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That kinda sounds racist. Or what would that be? Linguist? Thanks now we gotta add somthing to our laws about discrimination against dissimilar languages :rolleyes:
 
Certainly! I do agree that immigration laws should be followed to the letter! However, it's obvious that our immigration laws are not working nor can they be properly enforced. Thus we should take a hard look at why they're being broken. The obvious reason is that it's more appealing to get here illegally. Make it more appealing to get here legally and we lose the major part of the problem.

I support open immigration with borders sealed tighter'n a dolphin's sphincter. A criminal backround check and blood test to ensure there are no communicable diseases being brought in should be the only requirements for a work visa.
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Common ground all around here!:eek:
Stop the social handouts and fine those that hire illegals.
That would be a good way to make just coming here less appealing.
 
That kinda sounds racist. Or what would that be? Linguist? Thanks now we gotta add somthing to our laws about discrimination against dissimilar languages
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eh, I'm not a fan of discrimination laws applying to private businesses. if the owner of Billy Bob's KKK Uniform Emporium doesn't want non-whites working there or even in the store, let him have what he wants. the CRA was important and necessary in its time but these days it's abused and far too encompassing

Anyhoo, why is it a problem if I own a store that sells products from..let's say Uruguay and Argentina. I don't expect many non-hispanic Americans to come in looking for Dulce de Leche and Abuelita brand Mate so why should I post my signs in english? I want to entice spanish speakers (namely Argentinians and Uruguayans) to come in and buy my stuff because they're the ones most inclined to want my products and they're the ones I'm most likely to make money off of. Why should I have to post my sign for the non-spanish speakers as well? I don't care if they don't understand the sign, they're not likely to buy my stuff anyways.

Would you expect a gun store to print its sign in Klingon? A ridiculous idea, no doubt, but it's no less irrational and illogical than making a business owner who wants to cater to a spanish speaking population post signs for non-spanish speakers.
 
Common ground all around here!
Stop the social handouts and fine those that hire illegals.
That would be a good way to make just coming here less appealing.
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Eh, not exactly. :o Sorry to burst your bubble but we still disagree on one thing.

First of all, I don't like social handouts in general. I believe private charity is more than enough to handle the indigent and can do it better than government programs could ever hope to. Discriminating based on character and integrity is not something Uncle Sam is allowed to do but private charity (which I gladly support and give to and would give more to if I didn't have to waste so much of my paycheck on welfare) can make sure that the only people recieving public help are the ones that truly need it, not the lazy.

The only problem I have is in going after those that hire illegals. As a business owner I believe it should be my right to hire whoever I please to mop my floors or dig my trenches or mow my lawn. One of the few things I feel the government has the power to do is protect the borders and thus I feel I should be allowed to assume that anyone offering to work for me is supposed to be here. I know it doesn't work that way in the real world but I'd much rather see the illegals stopped at the source than fining the business owners that just want to pay an honest guy and honest day's pay for honest work.

When we bring up major corporations like Wal-Mart knowingly hiring massive amounts of illegals...well, that's a different story, especially since they're a publicly traded company. But if I want to pay a random dude fifty bucks to plant a tree for me I don't see why I should have to bother saying "Papers please" before doing so. :(
 
relax redworm I'm trying to lighten the atmosphere here
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I know :) I don't think anyone here has bad intentions. I highly doubt more than a handful of people here - if any! - are bigots or racists; most likely less than you'd find in the general population since I feel that most of us are here because we treasure freedom and liberty. I just wanted to get my point across. I'm proud to be an American. I was born here but my first language was not english. I knew two others before I entered kindergarten and learned to speak english from class and TV in six months. My parents understood the value of being able to communicate in multiple languages and while I can speak four as a native I'm proud to say that I'm most fluent in english and that's the language my "inner voice" speaks when I'm thinking.

Still, I feel it's important to point out that language is the soul of a culture and the American culture only exists because of the many cultures that have influenced it. We are the greatest nation on Earth because we've embraced those of various nations and cultures, not in spite of it. We have the greatest scientific minds in the world because we brought Germans and Swedes and Japanese here in the 50s. Chicago and New York have the best food in the world (in my opinion) because Italians came here and showed people what real cooking is like. We have the best booze because after the 30s the many Irish and German immigrants knew that America wanted to get drunk and the best way to so was their way. We have the best military tactics because we learned from the Israelis and Britains and Russians and occassionally from the mistakes of the French. :p

America is not just a bunch of WASPs with a couple minorities mixed in. Rock and roll came from blacks, Apple pie came from Brits, fuel efficient Chevrolets came from Asians, the basis of our math came from Arabs and Mayans...everything that makes America truly great is because she has embraced other cultures - and more importantly - the cultures those people come from.


That was quite a tirade on my part and I should probably put down the captain & coke :p but I hope everyone understands that I truly do feel pride in this country and love it with every bone in my body. I just feel that others should be given the opportunity to do the same because that is what America is supposed to stand for. Freedom, liberty, the American Way. All that good stuff.
 
I know as a student that with all the uneducated in America it is difficult to find a job at even Walmart and Home Depot. There are just too many people filling the "unskilled labor" positions (one reason I am getting a degree) and illegal aliens... i'm sorry, undocumented immigrants... are filling many positions that launch highschoolers into the world of labor. That's my personal beef with illegals (yes some Mexicans are in Idaho and Iowa and Minnesota... although with the weather we are having it makes no sense why someone in their right mind would live here. Note to self to get a psych eveluation)
 
The only problem I have is in going after those that hire illegals. As a business owner I believe it should be my right to hire whoever I please to mop my floors or dig my trenches or mow my lawn.
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So it's ok for you to hire illegals.
When we bring up major corporations like Wal-Mart knowingly hiring massive amounts of illegals...well, that's a different story, especially since they're a publicly traded company.
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But not them?:confused:

So are you saying you would be ok with small slave plantations, but not large one?

Hiring illegals is wrong, you're supporting a crime. Illegal entry into a country is a crime. I would support them throwing you in jail for hiring illegals the same way I support them throwing a large company. It's not difficult to figure out if they are here illegally.
 
as for the lack of unskilled labor positions I think that's partly to blame on whoever allowed companies like Dell and others to ship all their jobs to nations like India and Taiwan, putting a lot of skilled laborers out of work and making them take lower paying jobs in the hell that is retail food service. others have told me this is contrary to my beliefs about immigration and free markets but I've always hated the idea of American companies sending all their jobs to foreign countries

I'm far less annoyed about having to push 1 for english as I am having to speak to "Jason" in Mumbai about the hard drive I need to replace.
 
So it's ok for you to hire illegals.

But not them?
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No, I didn't say that was ok. Just that it's a bit of a different matter between a private business and a publicly traded company. It's a very sketchy issue for me.
So are you saying you would be ok with small slave plantations, but not large one?

Hiring illegals is wrong, you're supporting a crime. Illegal entry into a country is a crime. I would support them throwing you in jail for hiring illegals the same way I support them throwing a large company. It's not difficult to figure out if they are here illegally.
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I do agree that hiring illegals is wrong, I simply don't believe it should be the business owner's responsibility to check on the status of his workers. I believe that a business owner should have the right to hire whoever he wants and it should be assumed that the person offering to work for him is supposed to be in the country.

Again, this doesn't really jive with the way things work but then again neither do my (and most of our) beliefs on the RKBA. The ideal situation is that I, as a business owner, would be able to pick up guys at Home Depot and know that if they're on American soil that they are supposed to be here. Doesn't work that way in the real world, I know.

I just feel the problem should be fixed at the source, not the symptom.
 
I thought I've been saying that all along?
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No, it's not. You missed what I was saying...in the nation as a whole English is the dominant language. This does not mean that in any given region of the nation it is. We are not a homogeneous nation. The culture of, say, California, or Massachusetts (or Montana) is not necessarily reflected in the Nation as a whole, and often the values and culture of the nation of a whole is not entirely reflected in any one region.

If we are such a homogeneous nation that we should take aspects of the nation as a whole and relate them to any given locality, why to we still bother to have states with their own little governments.

There are states that are essentially bilingual, whether we like it or not (and there are regions that always have been). There are neighborhoods that are nearly monolingual in non-English languages. We've got territories where English is far from the primary language...see Puerto Rico.

We are not an English speaking nation. We are a nation where a large portion of the people happen to speak English. We are not nearly as homogeneous as some would like to think we are, and it appears we are becoming less so.
 
We are not an English speaking nation. We are a nation where a large portion of the people happen to speak English.
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I call politically correct BS foul on this one, large portion, try majority.
The majority of the country speaks English, business is conducted in English in the majority of the country. I find it troubling that when I'm in a market in Islamabad I find more signs in English than I find in my local Walmart. Call me silly....................go ahead it's ok, I know you want to.
 
We are not an English speaking nation
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This statement is ridiculous. Living in a border city where 50% of the population is Hispanic and being employed in the local education system. I see first hand the effects caused by the lack of the English language. It may be acceptable and understood for new immigrants, but is totally unacceptable in now second and third generations of American citizens. This is where the problem lies in my opinion. Hispanic parents who raise their children with Spanish as a primary language are doing an injustice to their children.

kenny b
 
I call politically correct BS foul on this one, large portion, try majority.
The majority of the country speaks English, business is conducted in English in the majority of the country. I find it troubling that when I'm in a market in Islamabad I find more signs in English than I find in my local Walmart. Call me silly....................go ahead it's ok, I know you want to.
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I lived in Phoenix and never saw these mythical Wal-Marts where all the signs are in Spanish alone. I saw plenty in English and Spanish. Am I to believer there are vast swaths of Islamabad that have English-only signs, then? Because...I don't. So yeah...you're silly.

Also, a majority isn't everybody. The majority isn't always right simply because they are a majority. And from what I've seen, "politically correct" is just one of those buzz-words that's used by those on the right end of the political spectrum to declare somebody wrong without coming right out and saying it.

The left wing has one of those too. It's called "racist." I could probably break it out in reply to a few posts I've seen here*, but I'd prefer not to. I've found that route never goes anywhere useful.

* - In most cases it would be unwarranted, though. That's the fun thing about terms like "politically correct" and "racist"...they don't even need to be justified to effectively shut down a line of conversation.
 
One thing about these PC terms and the dreaded word "racism" and its variants have closed the minds of the American people. They say that they are just "open minded" but in reality they have closed their minds to thinking for themselves. They let the government and the popular opinion project it for them. For example I say that those with darker skin seem to have an advantage in sunnier climates while those with whiter skin tend to have a physiological advantage in colder climates. These are not racist statements so much as scientific hypothesis about the world and cna be veiwed by certain groups as racist because it separates dark from light skin. However those who completely believe in complete equity between everyone, including those with mental handicaps, have closed their minds to reality: nothing is equal. There are always going to be those that have better skills or looks or some other quality that makes all others look bad and ruin the so beloved self esteem. If your self esteem is challenged you build character and your own personality and your experiences. Without trials we would be nothing. However, if we just catered to everyones needs we might as well just tell the UN to take over, this is the country United Nations and we treat everyone the same here. Let's separate everyone based on race, creed and skill and designate a section to live in and adapt it as a whole for them and only them. That means a chinese district, a russian, a hispanic, germanic, african, and maybe some others. Just turn Canada into the French district of the UN. Then all will be equal and happy. (Not):barf: :barf: :barf:
 
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