I'm SO SICK of this illegal alien situation!

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That is an unrealistic scenario, it is not the norm and it is definitely not the case.
You're right, I'm tired of paying to feed, house and give health care to criminals. This problem is created primarily by one group of people illegal Mexican immigrants. It's not racist, it factual. I have no sympathy or empathy for illegal aliens of any nation.

Are you really suggesting there aren't pleny of white, English-speaking illegals running around? Because there are. I've known a few. Generally from Europe. Heck, we even had one show up in basic training when I joined the Army...from eastern Europe, didn't even have a green card. His recruiter had pretty much just fudged his paperwork.

The drill sergeants worked overtime to get it sorted out though, and took care of him. Then again, he was white, spoke English, and looked like a bodybuilder (scored almost 300 on his first diagnostic PT test).

I've also run into pleny of legal non-Hispanic immigrants who don't speak English at a functional level, if at all.

You guys want to make it about race because it makes you feel good that you're doing something for an "impoverished" people. I want those "impoverished" people to come here legally, if they can't do that I don't want them here. It's not racist, it's common sense.

Except that it isn't about them not being able to do that; it's about us (or more to the point you) telling them they can't do that. It's about a bunch of people whose ancestors (generally) came over under a whole different system changing that system (and now wanting to keep it that way) so that others can't do the same.

Or is there a lot of support for quadrupling the quota that I'm just not seeing?

So at least say it right. You want those "impoverished" people to come here legally, and if you won't let them then you don't want them here. Doesn't sound nearly as generous, does it.

Would you tolerate them breaking into your house and living their? That is essentially what they are doing when they break into our country.

No, it's not. My house is small enough that even one extra person would significantly decrease the amount of space and privacy available to me. Ever been to Montana? This country is large enough and empty enough that a hundred million people could move up here without being the equivalent of one extra person in my house.

Special treatment means harassing schools into paying for extra staff to educate their kids even though they pay no taxes and therefore do not pay those teachers salary.

How are your schools funded? I thought up here it was largely through property taxes. Which, unless those immigrants live in a cardboard box they are paying. If they own, directly...if they rent, indirectly through their landlord.

You really don't like anything about whites or their culture. You mentioned the "white culture" 3 different times, I believe that could be construed as a racist statement!!!

Possibly. Of course, it could also be because due to A) whites being a majority and B) me being white it's easier for me to distinguish between different subsets of white culture than culture of other races. I'm sure there are monumental differences between southern black culture and northeastern black culture...but because both are so far from my own they look largely alike to me.

It's basic psychology.

JC your reading ability isn't very good. I didn't say English only or spanish only signs. What I was referring to were the Spanish signs with English sub-titles. BTW the official language of Pakistan is English and it required to be taught in school.

My reading ability is excellent. If a sign has it's message printed in English, it is in English. Regardless of what language comes first or is larger. What's the matter, does the poor English-speaking guy feel marginalized if another language comes first? Cry me a river.

Go spend a year in a real third-world country and talk to me. You should be thanking God every day you get to be in America and read those English subtitles at Wal-Mart.


To be honest, my opinion is that a majority of people who are most vocal about illegals, including a lot of you on this forum, are simply racist. You hide behind "they're criminals" because it's something that seems logical and is pretty hard to counter (legality being entirely black and white)...but at the same time you're not okay with allowing more in legally. What it's really about is the fact that allowing a wave of immigrants from Mexico stands a very real chance of making whites a minority and will most definitely make them a minority in a large region of the country...and it scares the crap out of you. A lot of people used to being the dominant culture and/or dominant race are not happy about the idea of no longer holding that spot. That's why this "wave" seems so much scarier and different than previous ones.

That, or it really is just history repeating itself. Aside from the fact that immigration law has changed (thus adding your convenient "but it's illegal" argument), the rhetoric used now is little different from the rhetoric used for every previous wave.

So yeah, I'm a liberal politically correct idiot...ya'll are a bunch of reactionary right-wing racists. I don't even care if you have a Hispanic wife...lots of racists back in the day like to get black tail, too. Name calling is fun, no?

Except WildAlaska...he seems to be a genuinely reasonable guy who simply has a greater-than-average respect for the law. I say that from both his posts here and his posts I've seen elsewhere. I often disagree with him, but can always understand where he comes from and respect it.
 
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This problem is created primarily by one group of people illegal Mexican immigrants. It's not racist, it factual. I have no sympathy or empathy for illegal aliens of any nation.

No... this situation is created primarily by a different group of people... Pepole who hire illegal workers, because they'll work for less money, and no benefits, and they won't complain no matter what's done to them. And guess what... The vast majority of those people are white.

Guess what else? Hiring an illegal worker is actually more illegal than being one. Illegal entry is a civil infraction. Hiring illegal workers is a misdemeanor. And don't give me any crap about forged documents and the poor, poor businessman can't be expected to comply with the law. There was a free program whereby employers could verify social security numbers over the phone or internet. Notice I said "was." It was shut down by Executive Order in early 2001, at the behest of the Chamber of Commerce. Shutting down this program before it could be made mandatory was the USCoC's #1 priority. It was one of the very first things Bush did as President. Do the math.

That tells you everything you need to know about the businessman's view of illegal immigration.

If you hire an illegal worker, your business should cease to exist, and you should go to prison. The worker should be deported. If there aren't any jobs, the vast majority of them will stay home. Build a wall if you want to, but don't pretend that it's anything other than welfare for well-connected government contractors. It might well help, but it's probably the most expensive remedy that's been proposed. Redirecting the existing Border Patrol to raid workplaces and go after employers wouldn't cost a dime, but you don't see anyone suggesting it, do you?

Of course not... It would affect the wrong people, it doesn't increase anyone's budget, and it might actually work. We can't have that, no can we?

--Shannon

As to pressing "1 for English"... get over it. There's a market, businesses are catering to it. That's it. It causes no harm to anyone. It's capitalism at work. You like capitalism, don't you? If it really makes you that mad, feel free to take your business elsewhere. It's your right to do so, even for silly reasons.
 
Go spend a year in a real third-world country and talk to me. You should be thanking God every day you get to be in America and read those English subtitles at Wal-Mart.

I've spent much more than a year out of the last 20. I do thank God I'm American. I also have enough common sense to understand that, opening the flood gates isn't the answer. I know that regulating population growth with immigration laws is what keeps us from becoming a third world nation. Nobody called anybody a name until the "racist" card came out. Do you consider being called politically correct a derogatory name? Is being left wing considered bad in your eyes? If so, maybe you're not the hardcore liberal you try to talk yourself into being.
 
Do you consider being called politically correct a derogatory name? Is being left wing considered bad in your eyes? If so, maybe you're not the hardcore liberal you try to talk yourself into being.

I think both "liberal" and "politically correct" are poorly defined terms whose use is often solely to marginalize the person they're used against. Especially "politically correct."

And no, I readily admit my political views on this issue, and many others, falls left of center. However, my views are not easily described by simply calling me a "liberal."

Also, "political correctness" is generally identified nowadays with "liberals." And please don't tell me that calling somebody either one around here is not considered derogatory. It's a firearm enthusiast board. Liberals are held up as something to be universally reviled. Or am I imagining all those "Why don't these LIBERALS get it!!!1!1!" threads around here? So calling somebody a liberal around here is definitely an ad hominem attack.
 
So, here's the bigger question

What contributions have any ILLEGALS made to American society, as a whole or individual?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
 
What contributions have any ILLEGALS made to American society, as a whole or individual?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
I'm pretty sure than ten million people (or eight if you want to assume 20% are nothing more than criminals) working, eating, drinking, paying rent, watching tv and shopping have a significant stimulating effect on the economy. The Wall Street Journal once reported that a significantly large portion of illegals actually contribute more to our government in taxes than they're able to take out in benefits. I'll try to find the article.

Oh and for the record the legal immigrants of the 1800s also contributed to American society...but often on the backs on slaves and other immigrants. So let's not pretend that all the Europeans that came here built this country on their own.
 
I think both "liberal" and "politically correct" are poorly defined terms whose use is often solely to marginalize the person they're used against. Especially "politically correct."

And no, I readily admit my political views on this issue, and many others, falls left of center. However, my views are not easily described by simply calling me a "liberal."

Also, "political correctness" is generally identified nowadays with "liberals." And please don't tell me that calling somebody either one around here is not considered derogatory. It's a firearm enthusiast board. Liberals are held up as something to be universally reviled. Or am I imagining all those "Why don't these LIBERALS get it!!!1!1!" threads around here? So calling somebody a liberal around here is definitely an ad hominem attack.


The only way it could be considered a personal attack on your character is if it weren't true. You're admitting that you have liberal views i.e. "I readily admit my political views on this issue, and many others, falls left of center."
I have said nothing racist, I have talked about illegal immigrants, you can't get over the fact that the majority of them are Mexican or Latin American. I have repeatedly stated I don't care where they come from, if they can't get here legally they need to go home.
As to moving them to Montana, once again let them move to Montana after they get in the country legally.
 
The language you and I speak and are typing in is called American English. It is a distinct language from the one the founding fathers
Semantics it is!
If you and I were incapable of understanding George Washington, than you have an argument.
I could still have a conversation with one of the early settlers without the aid of a translator.
Again you take some minor point to twist it to suit your weak one.
You are very petty my man!
You know precisely what we mean when someone says "English".
I've never seen classes in "AMerican English as a Second Language.:rolleyes: "
English or, as you put it, American English is the dominant language of America.

The point is that I don't have to assume a guy is illegal just because he can't speak english
I never suggested that.
In your opinion.
Do you say things just to be contrary?
Another very basic premise that you feel a need to refute.
Did I read wrong, or did you say it's the governments job to keep the borders secure, not yours.
So if a law breaker evades the authorities, you wash you hands of helping the authorities, or society, by doing something to discourage said lawbreaker.
Turn a blind eye to crime if the authorities don't get them.
And this is bad for society only in MY mind?
I'm not going off on one of your petty tangents.
I love this one>>>..
I'd much rather see the illegals stopped at the source than fining the business owners that just want to pay an honest guy and honest day's pay for honest work.
When we bring up major corporations like Wal-Mart knowingly hiring massive amounts of illegals...well, that's a different story
First of all, if he were honest, he wouldn't be here illegally.
Secondly, hiring this "honest guy" is ok, but a company hiring "massive amounts" of "honest guys for an honest days work" is not ok.
Don't you want to help all these poor 'honest guys" get their "honest days pay"?
No hypocrisy here.
Because your'e reading what you want, not what I'm actually putting down.
You're coming in pretty clear.
Do you follow every law to the letter?
Another attempt to veer off.
This is not about me or anyone else here.
It's about people breaking existing United States law.
It's either OK for them to do it or it's not.
As the laws are now, it's not.

So yeah, I'm a liberal politically correct idiot

Talk about self awareness!:D
A liberal will always throw out the "racist/bigot" card when facts and common sense elude them.
You can't say ANYTHING about a minority with out it being "racist".
Whether it's true or not!:rolleyes:
 
I'm pretty sure than ten million people (or eight if you want to assume 20% are nothing more than criminals) working, eating, drinking, paying rent, watching tv and shopping have a significant stimulating effect on the economy. The Wall Street Journal once reported that a significantly large portion of illegals actually contribute more to our government in taxes than they're able to take out in benefits. I'll try to find the article.
OK, with that being said, how much of that money is spent trying to keep hospitals and schools from being overwhelmed and closed because of them? Also, how much of that money is spent incarcerating the ones in jail and prison? Can't have one without the other.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
 
Semantics it is!
If you and I were incapable of understanding George Washington, than you have an argument.
Again you take some minor point to twist ti to suite your weak one.
You are very petty my man!
You know precisely what we mean when someone says "English".
I've never seen classes in "AMerican English as a Second Language. "
English or, as you put it, American English.
I could still have a conversation with one of the early settlers without the aid of a translator.
Once again, the point is that language evolves. I have no issue allowing our english to evolve by allowing multiple languages to flourish here. I wouldn't care if all the store signs in an entire city were in chinese as long as the ones put up by the government at the very least had the english translation (most road signs are pictograms anyways).

I never suggested that.
Then why suggest that I wouldn't turn in a wanted child molestor? Because you feel it gives credence to your argument that I wouldn't turn in a criminal.

Well guess what, I know a guy that owns three handguns in his condo in Chicago. He's certainly a criminal, it's illegal for him to have even one of those! Should I turn him in?
Do you say things just to be contrary?
Another very basic premise that you feel a need to refute.
Did I read wrong, or did you say it's the governments job to keep the borders secure, not yours.
So if a law breaker evades the authorities, you wash you hands of helping the authorities, or society, by doing something to discourage said lawbreaker.
Turn a blind eye to crime if the authorities don't get them.
And this is bad for society only in MY mind?
The difference is that a child molestor has commited a crime against another preson. An illegal, much like a pothead or fornicator, has commited a crime that inherently creates no direct victim.

First of all, if he were honest, he wouldn't be here illegally.
Secondly, hiring this "honest guy" is ok, but a company hiring "massive amounts" of "honest guys for an honest days work" is not ok.
Don't you want to help all these poor 'honest guys" get their "honest days pay"?
And if my friend in Chicago were honest he wouldn't own a gun in a city that banned them because he wants to protect his family? If George Bush was honest he wouldn't have gotten a DUI?

Again, I said being a publicly traded company is a different story. The reason is that a company with shareholders has a responsibility to them while a sole proprietorship doesn't. You're assuming I meant that WalMart shouldn't be allowed to do something small business owners should be but I'm saying that WalMart has to appease its shareholders and not all of them may be comfortable hiring illegals.

You're coming in pretty clear.
No, I don't think so. :p I've had to reexplain a couple of things but then again I should make it a point to be more clear in my comments. I'm sorry if I've caused misunderstanding but you don't seem to be getting all of my points.

Another attempt to veer off.
This is not about me or anyone else here.
It's about people breaking existing United States law.
It's either OK for them to do it or it's not.
As the laws are now, it's not.
Ah so it's not ok for them to break existing US law....which is why I asked if you follow every law to the letter. Because if you don't then you don't really have a foot to stand on in arguing that all laws must be followed all the time.
 
I don't even care if you have a Hispanic wife...lots of racists back in the day like to get black tail, too
.
I think I'm the only one that mentioned having an Hispanic wife.
Are you directing that to me personally?
 
OK, with that being said, how much of that money is spent trying to keep hospitals and schools from being overwhelmed and closed because of them? Also, how much of that money is spent incarcerating the ones in jail and prison? Can't have one without the other.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
Well, if they're paying more in taxes than they recieve in benefits then it's possible they're the ones subsidizing the citizens who contribute nothing to society.
 
Well, if they're paying more in taxes than they recieve in benefits then it's possible they're the ones subsidizing the citizens who contribute nothing to society.
You're saying what exactly when you say IF, and then it's POSSIBLE. Please, show me the facts not your opinion.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
 
So if a law breaker evades the authorities, you wash you hands of helping the authorities, or society, by doing something to discourage said lawbreaker.
Turn a blind eye to crime if the authorities don't get them.
If their crime doesn't harm me, pretty much. Or am I to think you're out there with a radar gun looking for speeders (assuming you're not an LEO)? Or going over your friends' tax returns and reporting them if they took too many deductions. Or ransacking your buddy's gun safe to make sure there's nothing in there the government wouldn't want them to have. Peeking in people's windows looking for grow-lamps? How far do you go to fight crime there, Batman?

It's not illegal to speak Spanish. There are legal citizens who speak only Spanish. So why should I go out of my way to verify Juan's legal status, if he's not hurting me any, just because he no speaky English?

First of all, if he were honest, he wouldn't be here illegally.

If you were honest, you wouldn't speed. I'm betting you have, though.

Another attempt to veer off.
This is not about me or anyone else here.
It's about people breaking existing United States law.
It's either OK for them to do it or it's not.
As the laws are now, it's not.

No, when you want to act as though we should instantly doubt their character because "they're breaking the LAW" you make it about you and everybody else. A man considered by many to be wise said something about those without sin casting stones first.

Most of us here have broken laws and gotten away with it. So who are we to judge them? Because they're breaking a "really real" law, whereas the ones we broke weren't important? Law's the law, right?

OK, with that being said, how much of that money is spent trying to keep hospitals and schools from being overwhelmed and closed because of them? Also, how much of that money is spent incarcerating the ones in jail and prison? Can't have one without the other.

Well, at least from what we went over in my macro class, a lot of that money is recouped elsewhere due to the economic stimulation they provide. Any overall effect they have appears to be very small, and some studies show it to be positive.

I think I'm the only one that mentioned having an Hispanic wife.
Are you directing that to me personally?

Are you the only person in the country (or even on this forum) with a Hispanic wife? Why, did you take it personally? Are personal attacks less fun now?
 
I don't even care if you have a Hispanic wife...lots of racists back in the day like to get black tail, too.

So you're solution to personal insults is to revert to psuedo-racism?

Well, if they're paying more in taxes than they recieve in benefits then it's possible they're the ones subsidizing the citizens who contribute nothing to society

Uhh huhh... I'm quite sure they do provide stimulus for the economy. Just like the national debt, the rich bondholders/industrialists profit greatly while the costs are payed largely by the average taxpayer. I'm no economist so its possible that the downfalls are outweighed by the economic stimulus and its benefits passed down to the average American.
 
Well, at least from what we went over in my macro class, a lot of that money is recouped elsewhere due to the economic stimulation they provide. Any overall effect they have appears to be very small, and some studies show it to be positive.
________________________________________________

Please, show the facts not your opinion or what you learned in a class. I'd like to see real, physical, empirical evidence to your statements.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
 
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