I'm SO SICK of this illegal alien situation!

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Please, show the facts not your opinion or what you learned in a class. I'd like to see real, physical, empirical evidence to your statements.
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First, "what I learned in a class" is probably worth more than your "gut feeling." At least it was before education became a liability in this country. Second, economics is not exactly like the "hard" sciences. It's not like physics, where I can recreate the Michelson-Morley experiment to prove empirically that light does not travel through the ether. It's not like it's easy (or even possible) to track the exact economic impact of any group, especially a group that's not even properly documented. I doubt there'd be any "real, physical, empirical evidence" to prove this...and what evidence there is probably wouldn't satisfy you. Hopefully Redworm can track down that WSJ article (actually, I think there have been more than one), and we'll see.

What it comes down to is that, at a certain point, you have to trust that economists know just a little more and are a bit smarter than you on this issue.
 
I wouldn't care if all the store signs in an entire city were in chinese
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You really area mess brother!
In your own little world.
All the signs in all our major cities, hospitals, pharmacies, packaging, etc, in Chinese.
And you have no problem with that!:rolleyes:
Then why suggest that I wouldn't turn in a wanted child molestor? Because you feel it gives credence to your argument that I wouldn't turn in a criminal.
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Your statement suggested that it's not your responsibility, in any way, to do something to help this country stem the tide of illegals entering.
Did I read that wrong?
Well guess what, I know a guy that owns three handguns in his condo in Chicago. He's certainly a criminal, it's illegal for him to have even one of those! Should I turn him in?
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JEEZ! Another tangent!
We are talking about "Illegal Immigration".
Remember?
Do you know 12 million guys in Chicago w/guns?
An illegal, much like a pothead or fornicator, has commited a crime that inherently creates no direct victim.
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Earth to Redworm!
No direct victims!?!?!
How about hopital closings in border states because they can't afford to treat illegals for free!
How many people lost heir jobs at that hospital I wonder.
Can't pay rent or car payments because they lost their job.
How many people now have to travel some distance to another hospital.
Elderly folks w/o transportation.
Who pays the increased expenses when schools decide to give free schooling, on every level, to illegals.
Gee, could it be the taxpayers?
Or maybe just increase the tuition fees for all the legal kids.
Mom and dad are already working their butt off, a little more wont hurt.
And the kid that gets run over by an illegal w/o insurance.
WHo's gonna pay that kids medical bills?
He wouldn't be in the hospital if that illegal didn't break the law and sneak in here.
And how about the massive amounts of drugs of every kind being brought over weekly, if not daily.
The addiction,death, heartbreak, etc caused by those drugs.
An illegal, much like a pothead or fornicator, has commited a crime that inherently creates no direct victim
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No direct victims!:rolleyes:
 
First, "what I learned in a class" is probably worth more than your "gut feeling." At least it was before education became a liability in this country. Second, economics is not exactly like the "hard" sciences. It's not like physics, where I can recreate the Michelson-Morley experiment to prove empirically that light does not travel through the ether. It's not like it's easy (or even possible) to track the exact economic impact of any group, especially a group that's not even properly documented. I doubt there'd be any "real, physical, empirical evidence" to prove this...and what evidence there is probably wouldn't satisfy you. Hopefully Redworm can track down that WSJ article (actually, I think there have been more than one), and we'll see.

What it comes down to is that, at a certain point, you have to trust that economists know just a little more and are a bit smarter than you on this issue.
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You say this as if I'm an uneducated Gomer. How does education become a liability, other than to government and people acknowledging their rights?

So what you're saying is you cannot prove or disprove your theories, correct? Kinda like religion, maybe or maybe not God exists. Until such time as you can show proof positive they make a positive impact, your words are pointless to any here.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
 
What contributions have any ILLEGALS made to American society, as a whole or individual?
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Well, pretty much all work they do and all money they spend here needs to be marked as a positive, and any drain in the form of welfare, education, and free healthcare is a negative.

What hard facts do we have on the drains? Is it possible to tally the contributions? If walmart is aided by that, how do we measure impact on society?

With what expertise can we apply the numbers to come up with a conclusion regarding net gain or loss?
 
Well, pretty much all work they do and all money they spend here needs to be marked as a positive, and any drain in the form of welfare, education, and free healthcare is a negative.

What hard facts do you have on the drains?

My car insurance bill for uninsured motorists, my hospital insurance payments, etc. etc.

With what expertise do you have to apply the numbers to come up with a conclusion regarding net gain or loss?


Hey, I just asked what contributions ILLEGALS have made to American society, the burden of proof is on those that would defend them.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
 
JEEZ! Another tangent!
We are talking about "Illegal Immigration".
Remember?
Do you know 12 million guys in Chicago w/guns?
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No, you keep talking about "the law." Because it's all very black and white, and that helps you case. Yet you don't want to talk about "the law" in any other context, because in other contexts we often don't want it to be so black and white.

Who pays the increased expenses when schools decide to give free schooling, on every level, to illegals.
Gee, could it be the taxpayers?
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At the lower levels, schools are generally funded largely through property taxes. Which illegals pay. I'm not sure where the funds for state subsidization of colleges/universities comes from. I'm guessing illegals pay a large portion of those as well, though.

And then there's always my idea, which is to go ahead and let them pay taxes by giving them legal status.

With what expertise do you have to apply the numbers to come up with a conclusion regarding net gain or loss?
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He has none, same as me. Difference is, I actually listen to those that do have that expertise, where he doesn't seem to.

Also, Kenpo, there's no need to type "illegals" in all caps. Everybody here knows who we're talking about. Also, if you've not bothered to study any economics or look deeper into the subject than your bills, it's not our job to educate you. Go pay your local college to do that for you.

EDIT: Also, regarding your car insurance bill for uninsured motorists...there are plenty of citizens that drive uninsured. Even white ones. I was once one of them for a year or so. I've known a few since.
 
Yeah, I changed my post as I didn't want you to take it personally.

Things like car and health insurance are certainly affected by those with insurance. However, simply the fact that insurance is one of those "what the market will bear" things, the impact is extremely difficult to determine.

example:
Iraq oil fields are on fire. Gas prices at the pump jump 7 cents. oops, story about the oil fields is inaccurate, price at the pump does what? certainly not drop 7 cents.

We simply do not have enough information to make a claim about how much illegal immigration affects your car insurance plan.
 
Also, Kenpo, there's no need to type "illegals" in all caps. Everybody here knows who we're talking about. Also, if you've not bothered to study any economics or look deeper into the subject than your bills, it's not our job to educate you. Go pay your local college to do that for you.


ILLEGALS, ILLEGALS, ILLEGALS, this is who we're talking about. I've no need to study economics for this particular cause, I can see the effect quite clearly. It ain't rocket science you know.

I simply asked, what contributions ILLEGALS have made to American society, in whole or individually. Can you give me empirical evidence of a positive impact or a particular instance?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
 
An illegal, much like a pothead or fornicator, has commited a crime that inherently creates no direct victim
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Even your choice of ne'er do wells falls short of the mark.
The "no direct victims" of a pothead....the parents that have watched their son remain a sloppy, uninspired dullard because he would rather smoke pot than go out, socialize or get a good job.
The wife of the pothead who has to stay home while he and his other pothead friends play video games, rather than taking her out to a movie or a concert.
How about everybody connected with the pothead when he gets busted and has to do time.
But no direct victims.
Or the fornicator: who's wife is broken hearted because she knows what he;s up to.
who brings home a disease to his wife, possibly AIDS, dooming them both to an awful death and rendering their children orphans.
Maybe he's not married but still catches some disease.
Again, no victims in your world.
Granted these are only fictional but very much based on factual events that I've seen or experienced.
There are ripple effects to illegal behaviour such as illegal immigration.
But you so quaintly say such behaviour
inherently creates no direct victim.
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Sure it doesn't.
 
The wife of the pothead who has to stay home while he and his other pothead friends play video games, rather than taking her out to a movie or a concert.
How about everybody connected with the pothead when he gets busted and has to do time.
But no direct victims.
Or the fornicator: who's wife is broken hearted because she knows what he;s up to.
who brings home a disease to his wife, possibly AIDS, dooming them both to an awful death and rendering their children orphans.
Maybe he's not married but still catches some disease.



The wife married the pothead knowing he's a pothead, her bad, she either deals with it or not.

The wife marries the philanderer knowing full well he is one, her bad if she stays around.

no victims dude, sorry.


ILLEGALS, many victims.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
 
No, you keep talking about "the law." Because it's all very black and white, and that helps you case. Yet you don't want to talk about "the law" in any other context, because in other contexts we often don't want it to be so black and white.
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Maybe not, but until it changes, it should be followed.

At the lower levels, schools are generally funded largely through property taxes. Which illegals pay
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How are they in a position to pay property tax?
Which illegals pay. I'm not sure where the funds for state subsidization of colleges/universities comes from
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.
Where do you think it comes from.
All the hard working stiffs that are here legally, that's where.
I'm guessing illegals pay a large portion of those as well, though.
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And just how do you figure that?

JC, simple question.
Should we just do away with our southern border policy and let everyone in that wants to.
Just make them legal.
I' want to try and understand your thoughts on this.
And no long winded, circuitous answer please.
Should we just make them all legal and let the others in also.
No regulations?
 
What are we even arguing about anymore? Immigration is good as long as they are integrated into the tax base quickly and haul their own weight.

Answer: Loosen legal immigration standards while cracking down hard on illegal immigration. It is my opinion that they are not beneficial to the average American, and that they have no right to be here anyway. Inflict heavy punishments on any actual company (IE not tinpot contractors doing a bathroom renovation) hiring illegals.

Deport all illegal immigrant felons to their parent countries, force the countries to jail them with the same prison terms.
 
ILLEGALS, ILLEGALS, ILLEGALS, this is who we're talking about. I've no need to study economics for this particular cause, I can see the effect quite clearly. It ain't rocket science you know.
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You're wrong. You really can't see the overall economic effect on the nation as a whole "quite clearly." The fact that you think you can tells me much about your lack of knowledge in even basic economics. Heck, even most economists aren't that bold...not after that whole Great Depression thing. (Nice retort there CobrayCommando...seriously...but the economists' track record is probably still better overall than if we put Kenpo or myself in charge of things)

Can you give me empirical evidence of a positive impact or a particular instance?
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Illegal immigrants pay property taxes, increasing the base for that particular tax. Illegal immigrants lower the cost of child care and housekeeping services, allowing more skilled workers to be more productive. Illegal immigrants lower the cost of produce, leading to lower prices for the consumer. That's a couple off the top of my head that are incredibly easy to understand and difficult to refute.

Are there negative impacts as well? Of course there are. People smarter than you or I on the subject have studied both, and determined that whether positive or negative the overall impact is almost definitely small.

Also, I could care less if you feel the need to type "illegals" in all caps I suppose. It does make you look either like a particularly immature teenager or an "uneducated Gomer," though.


The wife married the pothead knowing he's a pothead, her bad, she either deals with it or not.
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Unless he becomes pothead after...but still no better or worse than an alcoholic, which is legal. And if she did know (as you assume), then she's not really a victim, and yet his actions are still illegal. Makes little sense to me.

The wife marries the philanderer knowing full well he is one, her bad if she stays around.
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Unless she doesn't know, and catches herpatitis before she finds out. But there are "fornication" related laws that affect people outside of marriage, anyway, and such people should know to protect themselves.

no victims dude, sorry.
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Yeah, pretty much.
 
The wife marries the philanderer knowing full well he is one, her bad if she stays around
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.
?????????:confused:
At 52, I've yet to meet, or hear, of a woman knowingly marrying a man she knows is going to cheat on her?
The wife married the pothead knowing he's a pothead, her bad, she either deals with it or not.
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Maybe he wasn't.
Irrelevant.

ILLEGALS, many victims.
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Very good!
Now try to get Redworm to understand that.
I'm done!
 
What are we even arguing about anymore? Immigration is good as long as they are integrated into the tax base quickly and haul their own weight.

Answer: Loosen legal immigration standards while cracking down hard on illegal immigration. It is my opinion that they are not beneficial to the average American, and that they have no right to be here anyway. Inflict heavy punishments on any actual company (IE not tinpot contractors doing a bathroom renovation) hiring illegals.

Deport all illegal immigrant felons to their parent countries, force the countries to jail them with the same prison terms
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Ditto CC!
 
JC, simple question.
Should we just do away with our southern border policy and let everyone in that wants to.
Just make them legal.
I' want to try and understand your thoughts on this.
And no long winded, circuitous answer please.
Should we just make them all legal and let the others in also.
No regulations?
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No. Short enough for you?

We should have regulations, medical screening, a documentation process, etc. Perhaps even quotas, though I think they shouldn't be an order of magnitude smaller than the number of people who want to come. At which point every person that wanted to come legally would have the opportunity to do so within a reasonable period of time.

In other words, quadruple or quintuple the current quota from Mexico (and other countries, according to current demand). The system should be used to ensure the process is followed and that safeguards (criminal records, terrorist) are set, not to limit the overall number.

EDIT: Also allow for easy deportation of immigrants that become "real" criminals (as opposed to speeders, for instance...a system I believe we already have) . Heck, perhaps allow deportation of recent immigrants who fail to hold a job for an extended period of time. The only thing I'm really set on is that the number should be increased.

EDIT #2: And I'd give all current illegals the chance to apply for amnesty. Require gainful employment, no criminal record (at least no non-immigration-related one), etc. Because, assuming you up the quota, why would you punish people for having broken a law you had decided was unjust?

As an analogy, if we someday decided marijuana should be legal should we keep everybody in prison whose only crime was possession or distribution of marijuana? To me, this would make no sense...and part of me thinks the charlie-foxtrot this would cause is part of the reason it will never happen.[/tangent]
 
here's one editorial with some links

Gordon Hanson, Economist

with a paper on the subject

and other papers, even ones that detail the negative impacts

The Center for Immigration Studies, an anti-immigration think tank, estimates that the short-run net fiscal impact of illegal immigration is negative, on the order of $10 billion in 2002, or 0.09% of U.S. GDP in that year. This is not a big number.

As with immigration overall, what upsets people is not the aggregate impact of illegal immigration, which, as with legal immigration, seems to be more or less a wash. It is that the benefits of illegal immigration are enjoyed by one group -- the employers who hire them (and the consumers of their services) -- while the costs are incurred by other groups -- low-skilled workers and taxpayers in states where illegal immigrants reside.
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?????????
At 52, I've yet to meet, or hear, of a woman knowingly marrying a man she knows is going to cheat on her?

What can I say, I live near LA, this stuff happens all the time here, and I know many women who have.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS = victims, bottom line.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde
 
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