I was open carrying at Wal-Mart, and....
- Thread starter mellow_c
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I didn't mean to take anyone to task, the main point of my post was trying to explain why OC threads typically get heated.
I think there are good people on both sides of these discussions and I think that there's a lot more agreement than there is disagreement. It's the unspoken & overlooked issues and the assumptions & accusations on both sides that cause things to get "exciting" and that's what I was trying to bring to the surface.
I would like to say that I support both OC and CC and realize that each approach has both advantages and disadvantages.
As far as how the OP handled the situation, I would probably have taken my firearm to my vehicle and then returned to talk with the manager. If someone is concerned/worried/upset/scared about a firearm I'm not sure that the best approach is to continue the discussion with the item causing all the concern/worry/upset/fear still right in the middle of things.
imthegrumpyone
New member
I'm sorry we have a lot of rights we can't exercise on a daily bases. There needs to be a lot of work to make people comfortable with open carry, "or go backwards a 150 years, to the wild west" That's progress now isn't it ? I for one am not in favor of it, but as one of your rights, I up hold your right to open carry. You have to understand what we have let our nation become, just look around you. I would rather carry concealed and go about my business and not advertise. 
I have always thought that open carry, even where legal, is not a good idea. Your experience at Walmart shows exactly why.
Get a CCW and carry that way. Stop trying to open carry simply because "it's legal". It just takes one uninformed employee or manager (or just one that doesn't like guns) at any business to just ruin your day.
Get a CCW and carry that way. Stop trying to open carry simply because "it's legal". It just takes one uninformed employee or manager (or just one that doesn't like guns) at any business to just ruin your day.
Uncle Billy
New member
I don't think I'm any different than about 99% of the public here in the state I live in- someone I don't know and have zero reason to trust, with a gun, makes me uncomfortable. Every time I see someone with a gun who isn't also in a police uniform I get nervous because I have no idea what his intentions are, what his level of training is, what his mental state is, what's going to happen, why does he have a gun. Those questions beget the "you never know when it's going to happen to you so you better be ready at all times" response which is the justification for going armed all the time.
I have a CC permit which enables me to arm myself when I think it's prudent, and no one has to deal with that. Open carry when CC is available is okay and unremarkable in some states; in others it's a juvenile in-your-face macho trip that shouts "Cowboy!" and reduces respect and confidence in gun rights for everyone. That's too high a price to pay for no appreciable benefit when gun rights are under assault.
I have a CC permit which enables me to arm myself when I think it's prudent, and no one has to deal with that. Open carry when CC is available is okay and unremarkable in some states; in others it's a juvenile in-your-face macho trip that shouts "Cowboy!" and reduces respect and confidence in gun rights for everyone. That's too high a price to pay for no appreciable benefit when gun rights are under assault.
Post #85 (and posts like those) really bother me.
So, let me get this right...people with guns in plain view, who you don't know, make you uncomfortable?
I find this a bit strange, because I would be more concerned about the guy who is "mexican carrying" and failing to properly conceal his gun VERSUS the guy with a open carried/properly holstered firearm.
I'm not a google guru, but can someone please tell/show me the frequency of (or most recent) incidents where someone who was practicing OC with a holster and started causing trouble or began a shooting rampage?!
You see what I'm getting at here?
So, let me get this right...people with guns in plain view, who you don't know, make you uncomfortable?
I find this a bit strange, because I would be more concerned about the guy who is "mexican carrying" and failing to properly conceal his gun VERSUS the guy with a open carried/properly holstered firearm.
I'm not a google guru, but can someone please tell/show me the frequency of (or most recent) incidents where someone who was practicing OC with a holster and started causing trouble or began a shooting rampage?!
You see what I'm getting at here?
melloc Like allready coverd, you should have had the two men walk you to the store manager so they could be straighten'd out on as to what store policy is instead of walking out the door. Makes me wonder if the store is true to start with..... It is also legal to carry open in NC but enough city don't allow it as to make it unsafe for you with out checking city codes on Open Carry. My feelings are like many ,, If you live in the counrty and do business there and OC is legal ,,then do so. It still does not make it a smart thing to do in city ,or busy setting...
OldMarksman
Staff
I'm afraid that's true for a lot of people.
My wife still remembers being very uncomfortable when she saw a man sitting in a pancake house in Grand Lake, CO with a gun on his hip about four decades ago. It didn't bother me at all--western setting, nice looking group, a Single Six in a fancy western belt rig--but it did bother her.
Why? Conditioning, I think, for one thing. Reflect upon the number of times you have seen a report about a crime on the local news and the corner of the screen was emblazoned with the usual picture of a hand-gun. When I was in school in Chicago years ago, it was always a blue double action revolver; more recently, it was a Smith or Beretta DA semi-auto; and now a Glock-like facsimile, and to me they are all ugly and mean looking. The implication was "gun=crime", and serious tones accompanying the phrases "semi-automatic pistol" and "nine millimeter handgun" added emphasis. Repeat it often enough--gun=crime--and you have classic, Pavlovian conditioning.
Of course I don't know, but I tend to doubt that that's a strong influence with Uncle Billy. Not to ascribe my reactions to him, but when I see a couple of people wearing guns (and we don't, in the populous counties around here, because open carry is not permitted), I look at their countenances and their gaits, and more often that not, it they do not appear very friendly. One's first reaction may just be "why is this fellow doing this, and what is he trying to prove?". Some people just do not seem to realize that they are our ambassadors.
Change a few things--a smile, a nice family with him, his putting some feed or a chainsaw into a pick-up with a happy retriever on the bed, and all of that goes away, for me at least.
The point is well taken that a man wearing a gun openly in a belt holster is probably the least likely person around to start trouble, but the issue is one of perception.
For two people I've talked to in the last three days--an elderly woman at a dinner who believes that legalized CCW will cause things to "be like the wild west" notwithstanding the fact that we've had it for years, and a female clerk at a bird food store who shuddered visibly and with emotion while saying "I hate all guns" (someone had talked about using a BB gun on rats)--that perception is reality.
jglsprings
New member
Last week...
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/nw_valley/video-wal-mart-gun-discharge-4-9-2010
See what we are getting at here? I think you are giving most people the benefit of the doubt. I'm afraid I don't - And you may be the better person for it.
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OldMarksman
Staff
The OP might have asked, but he a cannot "have" the two men do anything, and if they have asked him to leave because people have expressed concern about his gun, it may take very little provocation to cause them to call the police. Depending upon the jurisdiction, that may be bad thing or a very bad thing.
jglsprings
New member
And rightly so.......
I don't know why I quoted your paragraph from that post. I did it in error - obviously all of your points about my inaccuracy were correct. I guess I had my head up my butt and quoted the wrong post.....
I would like to publicly apologize for being an idiot and take full responsibility for carelessly editing the post. My point was to be directed at a different post - Not WhyteP38
P.S.
Man go shoot on a Sunday afternoon and you sure miss a lot around here
Uncle Billy said:
jglsprings said:
To jglsprings and Uncle Billy and, recently, ClayInTx:
I will call your civilian example and raise you three police examples:
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2010/04/judge_sickened_by_raw_brutalit.html
http://www.kirotv.com/news/22956033/detail.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/09/melanie-hain-gun-carrying_n_315291.html (Scott Hain, a parole officer, owned the 9 mm handgun used to kill his wife.)
I am more comfortable around civilians wearing guns openly than I am police officers.
JohnKSa for President...
What I've never understood is why, when people talk about gun climate in the country, tend to assume subconsciously that the acceptance or prejudice of guns in their immediate area tends to be uniformly distributed nationwide.
One of the facts that we all must face is that acceptance of firearms (physically perceiving or thoughts on- notwithstanding) by the public is a widely varried issue in this country. Not only state to state, but house to house really. So if you plan to legally carry openly, you must accept a few things about your decision.
#1. You are making yourself an immediate representative of all gun owners. I'm not saying that people will assume that all gun owners are exactly like you, but what you do when you have a firearm openly holstered on your person directly reflects upon the rest of us. You have a responsibility to us all as a community to represent us as safe, knowledgable, polite people to citizens and businesses alike, regardless of the warm or cold reception that is given to you.
#2. You will be asked about your firearm. Whether by curious citizens, angry business owners, or fellow enthusiasts, you are going to be asked at some point and probably many about both your firearm, the corresponding carry laws in your state, your legality and intentions with the firearm, and what business owners or fellow citizens would prefer you do while on their property. This is primarily the reason I do not open carry. I just don't have the time usually. If I were stopped while I was carrying openly, I would feel socially obligated as a representative of the community as a whole to stop, patiently answer any questions anyone had, and to explain myself if necessary; even to the casual observer who asks a question. Because I realize that I've made myself a readily recognizable representative of gun rights and practices as easily as if I was carrying a campaign picket around supporting a local candidate. It is the appropriate thing to do.
#3. Some people will stick to their prejudices and will be uncomfortable with you. Some people hate guns prejudicially. Some people hate all kinds of things prejudicially (onions, democrats, Cubans, floppy red hats) but they can usually have some measure of control about their proximity to these things. When you walk in and expose a number of people to a firearm, there will be someone, or several people, who will feel uncomfortable. You deal with these people with respect and understanding. If they are open to conversation about the issue, you have a responsibility to take some time and speak with them about it, if only for a minute. If not, then you must recognize that just as you have the right to be there, so do they... and you BOTH have the right to leave if the dissonance is beyond resolve.
I support carrying openly, but I am not so arrogant as to think it has no repercussions. You must understand that you are making a public statement of where you stand on a controvercial political platform and you must understand that you are representing the whole of this community and have a responsibility to the rest of us as well.
I support carrying openly, but I just don't have the time usually. I appreciate all who do, like the gentleman who started this thread, and I thank you for your responsible representation.
Carrying openly is a hassle. And there is a lot of good and a lot of bad that can come from it. It's all about who is doing it and how that will decide whether the right stays around or not.
~LordTio
What I've never understood is why, when people talk about gun climate in the country, tend to assume subconsciously that the acceptance or prejudice of guns in their immediate area tends to be uniformly distributed nationwide.
One of the facts that we all must face is that acceptance of firearms (physically perceiving or thoughts on- notwithstanding) by the public is a widely varried issue in this country. Not only state to state, but house to house really. So if you plan to legally carry openly, you must accept a few things about your decision.
#1. You are making yourself an immediate representative of all gun owners. I'm not saying that people will assume that all gun owners are exactly like you, but what you do when you have a firearm openly holstered on your person directly reflects upon the rest of us. You have a responsibility to us all as a community to represent us as safe, knowledgable, polite people to citizens and businesses alike, regardless of the warm or cold reception that is given to you.
#2. You will be asked about your firearm. Whether by curious citizens, angry business owners, or fellow enthusiasts, you are going to be asked at some point and probably many about both your firearm, the corresponding carry laws in your state, your legality and intentions with the firearm, and what business owners or fellow citizens would prefer you do while on their property. This is primarily the reason I do not open carry. I just don't have the time usually. If I were stopped while I was carrying openly, I would feel socially obligated as a representative of the community as a whole to stop, patiently answer any questions anyone had, and to explain myself if necessary; even to the casual observer who asks a question. Because I realize that I've made myself a readily recognizable representative of gun rights and practices as easily as if I was carrying a campaign picket around supporting a local candidate. It is the appropriate thing to do.
#3. Some people will stick to their prejudices and will be uncomfortable with you. Some people hate guns prejudicially. Some people hate all kinds of things prejudicially (onions, democrats, Cubans, floppy red hats) but they can usually have some measure of control about their proximity to these things. When you walk in and expose a number of people to a firearm, there will be someone, or several people, who will feel uncomfortable. You deal with these people with respect and understanding. If they are open to conversation about the issue, you have a responsibility to take some time and speak with them about it, if only for a minute. If not, then you must recognize that just as you have the right to be there, so do they... and you BOTH have the right to leave if the dissonance is beyond resolve.
I support carrying openly, but I am not so arrogant as to think it has no repercussions. You must understand that you are making a public statement of where you stand on a controvercial political platform and you must understand that you are representing the whole of this community and have a responsibility to the rest of us as well.
I support carrying openly, but I just don't have the time usually. I appreciate all who do, like the gentleman who started this thread, and I thank you for your responsible representation.
Carrying openly is a hassle. And there is a lot of good and a lot of bad that can come from it. It's all about who is doing it and how that will decide whether the right stays around or not.
~LordTio
jglsprings
New member
NavyLt...
I'm pretty sure I didn't say I trusted police either.... we have all seen the DEA agent video. I've seen more negligent discharges on the sheriff's shooting range than any public range I've taught on. -
That's a different thread... familiarity breeds contempt...
I'm pretty sure I didn't say I trusted police either.... we have all seen the DEA agent video. I've seen more negligent discharges on the sheriff's shooting range than any public range I've taught on. -
That's a different thread... familiarity breeds contempt...
ClayInTx said:
Exercise your 2nd Amendments openly and you educate the public that it is just plain normal in America for an American to have the means available to protect themselves from criminals (and sometimes from idiots too).
Uncle Billy said:
And paying the state for permission to hide a gun has no benefit whatsoever to furthing the resoration of gun rights.
Oh yes, absolutely Helios and LordTio3! Big +1! 
and I will add that I have been approached many more times by the curious, information seeking person about my firearm, than I have been caused hassle by a hoplophobe. And, actually, the one hassle I have had over a hoplophobe 911 call was an educational experience for the police department involved and a great and rewarding experience with the restaraunt in which it happened.
Actually, in my few years of open carrying, the most hassles I have gotten have been from the concealed carry only crowd, and I am talking about in person, not just on the internet.
and I will add that I have been approached many more times by the curious, information seeking person about my firearm, than I have been caused hassle by a hoplophobe. And, actually, the one hassle I have had over a hoplophobe 911 call was an educational experience for the police department involved and a great and rewarding experience with the restaraunt in which it happened.
Actually, in my few years of open carrying, the most hassles I have gotten have been from the concealed carry only crowd, and I am talking about in person, not just on the internet.
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Uncle Billy
New member
I'll tell you why I'm uncomfortable seeing a "civilian" with a gun in a place where the only use for a gun would be to shoot at people- when some lunatic shoots up a McDonald's, or a school, or a college campus, or a military clinic, the preceding event is that he's got a gun. Why should I presume that every person I see with a gun is well trained, mentally balanced, not easily riled, and just exercising his Second Amendment rights? Such presumptions, while just dandy for glossing over the questions and doubts of a large part of the population, are in themselves really dangerous and stupid.
If someone is paranoid enough about violence to carry a gun all the time, isn't it inconsistent and illogical for them to expect that others wouldn't have the same fears, triggered by the presence of gun in plain sight? Fearing being shot arms some people and turns others away from supporting guns in any civilian hands, these opposite reactions come from the same place. If fear of being shot turns people away from supporting gun rights, why ought they to be happy when more and more guns show up in daily public life? Don't we need the support (or at least the indifference) of the majority of the people to maintain our rights? If enough of them get together and vote, they can amend the Constitution- why provide those who already want to do that with a recruiting issue?
... and paying the state to determine if someone is sane and trained enough to carry a concealed weapon makes using our rights safer and easier for non-gun people to accept because they won't have to deal with the issue of arms in public and maybe not push so hard to disarm us all.
I've been around armed police officers all my life and have had zero reason to doubt them. Of course none of that experience will show up on the internet because it's all too common. I grant that someone with a different direct experience with armed police might have a different perspective.
As I said, it depends heavily on where you are- in some states, where open carry has been going on a long time, folks are used to seeing guns and so it's no big deal. In other states, where open carry is a new idea and the history of the place is that civilians with guns were most likely up to no good because openly carrying a gun was illegal, the people are suspicious and afraid of armed civilians because they got used to the idea that armed civilians were already breaking the law, so they must have illegal violence in mind. If CC is an alternative, then the whole issue becomes a non-issue. Stick a gun in their face and some (maybe most) folks will recoil, wonder what your intent is, be afraid of you, and stand with those who would make such practice illegal, and we don't need any more enemies.
If someone is paranoid enough about violence to carry a gun all the time, isn't it inconsistent and illogical for them to expect that others wouldn't have the same fears, triggered by the presence of gun in plain sight? Fearing being shot arms some people and turns others away from supporting guns in any civilian hands, these opposite reactions come from the same place. If fear of being shot turns people away from supporting gun rights, why ought they to be happy when more and more guns show up in daily public life? Don't we need the support (or at least the indifference) of the majority of the people to maintain our rights? If enough of them get together and vote, they can amend the Constitution- why provide those who already want to do that with a recruiting issue?
... and paying the state to determine if someone is sane and trained enough to carry a concealed weapon makes using our rights safer and easier for non-gun people to accept because they won't have to deal with the issue of arms in public and maybe not push so hard to disarm us all.
I've been around armed police officers all my life and have had zero reason to doubt them. Of course none of that experience will show up on the internet because it's all too common. I grant that someone with a different direct experience with armed police might have a different perspective.
As I said, it depends heavily on where you are- in some states, where open carry has been going on a long time, folks are used to seeing guns and so it's no big deal. In other states, where open carry is a new idea and the history of the place is that civilians with guns were most likely up to no good because openly carrying a gun was illegal, the people are suspicious and afraid of armed civilians because they got used to the idea that armed civilians were already breaking the law, so they must have illegal violence in mind. If CC is an alternative, then the whole issue becomes a non-issue. Stick a gun in their face and some (maybe most) folks will recoil, wonder what your intent is, be afraid of you, and stand with those who would make such practice illegal, and we don't need any more enemies.
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