I was open carrying at Wal-Mart, and....

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I wish we could open carry in the Gunshine State...OH MY :eek: I mean Sunshine State...LOL

I guess I'll just deal with concealed :p
 
In other words, assuming - for sake of the topic of this thread - that the OP had personally talked to the most senior store manager on duty, and that specific manager had told the OP it was okay for him to OC in the store, and then while shopping two non-managerial employees - who had not talked to the store manager - told him that he had to leave because he was OCing, would the OP be required to leave?
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How could the OP know that the two individuals were not acting under the direction of the store manager or a corporate executive?

There used to be an old saying in the USAAF that you were to follow the last order you received. :)
 
How could the OP know that the two individuals were not acting under the direction of the store manager or a corporate executive?
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Actually, that raises two offshoots.

1) Let's say the OP does not know. Would the law require that he leave?

2) Let's say the OP tells them that the manager said it was okay, and asks them if they have spoken with the manager, and they say, "No, but you have to leave anyway." Would the law require that he leave?

There used to be an old saying in the USAAF that you were to follow the last order you received.
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That's fine, but the issue is the law, not old military rules.
 
Question for OldMarksman:

You seem familiar with the law regarding open carry. What is the legal requirement that would apply to the OP's specific situation?

In other words, assuming - for sake of the topic of this thread - that the OP had personally talked to the most senior store manager on duty, and that specific manager had told the OP it was okay for him to OC in the store, and then while shopping two non-managerial employees - who had not talked to the store manager - told him that he had to leave because he was OCing, would the OP be required to leave?
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The whole initial Wal Mart situation was brought about because of an internal communication problem amongst the various managers and employees at that particular store. IF the senior most person at that Wal Mart store had in fact told the OP it was OK for him and his firearm to be there, then that is permission granted for him to be on that property. Period. Lower employees cannot trespass him for not leaving, because their boss, who was present at the time, gave him permission to be there.

Now, if any employee on the property says you have to leave, and they ARE the most senior person that has spoken to you (not necessarily the most senior person in the chain of command on the property - just the most senior person that has spoken to the subject), that employee may trespass the subject if they refuse to leave.
 
ursavus.elemensis said:
Uh, NAVYLT, my State makes OC totally legal, and I still think it is completely silly. And, while I respect the gist of what JohnKSa is saying about how this not being a black-and-white issue where we can make sweeping statements and have them be accurate, I stand by the substance of what I have said: OC is just plain people trying to feel cool and important, and it is not anything else.
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I believe "sweeping statements" is a politically correct way of saying prejudiced and bigoted. And you are certainly within your 1st Amendment rights to make such prejudiced and bigoted statements and I am proud to have served 26 years defending the Constitution so that you can exercise your rights to make prejudiced and bigoted statements.
 
ursavus.elemensis wrote:
Uh, NAVYLT, my State makes OC totally legal, and I still think it is completely silly.

OC is just plain people trying to feel cool and important, and it is not anything else.
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You have a right to consider anything you want to be completely silly.

As for OC, I've never done it, even when I lived where it was legal. There is a certain amount of being hassled by the uninformed that, for me, isn't worth it. However, there are times nowadays when I wish OC was legal where I currently live, because it's easier for a quick run to the store at night. And when the weather is hot, it can also be more comfortable.

Alas, now I discover that lo these many years I really have not been thinking of comfort and convenience. I really just want to be considered cool and important, even though those thoughts never entered my mind. What an insidious thing OC is.

Well, maybe I considered the cool part, although I thought I wanted to be cool(er) on hot, humid summer nights.
 
Uncle Billy wrote:

Originally Posted by indykappa
You know, of all this talk about making people feel uncomfortable, there was a time when someone like me sitting next to you on a bus would lead to discomfort...eventually leading to my relocation on the bus or dismissal from the bus altogether...but then again, I guess it was probably wrong for black folks to make people uncomfortable huh? No good could possibly come from that right?
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The folks who were made uncomfortable by black folks were made so by their ignorance or bigotry, because black folks are simply folks when they are sitting next to you on the bus, and there was no justification for being uncomfortable other than that bigotry or ignorance. Black folks aren't inherently dangerous, they aren't inherently anything at all significantly different in the most important ways from folks of any other color. Bigotry and prejudice aren't legit reasons to mess with someone who makes you uncomfortable.

But being uncomfortable with a gun nearby isn't bigotry or prejudice because guns ARE dangerous, in the wrong hands, and being uncomfortable when there's a gun in hands you don't know anything about is reasonable and legit, as I see it.
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Best quote yet! And friends, more open carry will result in a ban. I don't think people will ever get comfortable with it. Especially in city settings.
 
Uncle Billy:
And unless the cop knows the criminal personally, how is he to determine he's OCing illegally? As I understand it, the cop needs probable cause before he can ask for an ID, and just the presence of a gun being OCed isn't cause enough.
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Under Supreme Court precedent from Terry v. Ohio (392 US 1), all a police officer needs to stop someone is "articulable suspicion". What this means in practice is that if a police officer thinks someone is going to commit a crime, has his own experience to back his intuition up, and on top of that sees the person in question carrying a gun, he has every right to stop and disarm that individual (Terry is convenient here also because it dealt precisely with the officer in question searching and disarming the individuals he stopped).

In Terry v. Ohio, the suspects stopped by the officer were carrying concealed in coat pockets, casing a department store to rob it. What set him off was not the presence of a weapon - he couldn't see any - but the behavior of the individuals in question. Now, it's worth it to mention that had the men in question been open carrying at the time of this case, the officer would have arrested them simply for that, but that's really beside the point.

What I'm getting at is that:

A. Cops notice criminals because of behavior. With today's laws I find it unlikely that many cops other than the few who don't know all their local gun laws would be "set off" by someone open carrying legally. What would set them off on someone would be strange behavior or body language that indicated nervousness or an intent to harm someone.

B. If a police officer observed such behavior, even if the subject was not visibly carrying a gun, he would be legally allowed to stop and search that person for weapons.

C. Finally, what difference does it make if someone is carrying a gun visibly or concealed if they intend to commit a crime with it? The gun is still merely the tool used; it is the man committing the crime worthy of attention. If someone is carrying openly and acting "normal" I think we could all agree we'd expect we were looking at someone following the law. If someone was pacing around the entrance to a store, repeatedly stopping before entering and looking in the store, also appearing very nervous, I would hope all of us would have the alarm bells going off regardless of whether he was openly carrying a gun or not.

People may be (are, for many, I'm sure) intimidated by seeing a gun openly displayed on someone's hip. But opinions are formed from experience and respected hear-say. The more people see and hear about normal people walking around with guns doing absolutely nothing wrong, the more they will come to see such behavior as normal. Mental conditioning works, period - the gun ban lobby got their successes of yesteryear by following just such a strategy.
 
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