I was open carrying at Wal-Mart, and....

[Blue Steel]

I would re-write your letter along the lines of JohnKSa's recommendations and forward the letter to corporate.

I would probably mention that you were made to feel like a criminal by the last set of employees that asked you to leave the store, and that you are concerned about the apparent lack of clarity on the store policy towards customers with firearms. If the greeter was clear about store policy this would have ended with her, either she would have informed you the store prohibited firearms or she would have known they don't prohibit them and left you alone.

It might also be advisable to note that you are not an activist seeking a platform, but a regular customer who was going about your shopping as you have numerous times in the past. You would like to continue to frequent the store, but you feel like you need some reassurance about actual store policy to help avoid a similar situation in the future.

What really bothers me is that the female who told you to go back to shopping did this only to buy time to enlist reinforcements. It is sad when the mere presence of a firearm is seen as menacing. This is why I would like to see the proliferation of open carry, because in large enough numbers I think it could eventually offset the negative reaction to firearms. Unfortunately I also realize that gun phobia has been so instilled in the modern culture that a buildup of open carry may actually cause us more harm than benefit. In my state I don't have to confront this issue, because open carry is restricted in most circumstances, even for non-uniformed police.

 

[jglsprings]

Okay,

WhyteP38
As for those who derided the OP's choice to legally open carry, I don't know why you want to cater to the hypersensitivity of people who don't like guns. In my experience, they are the same people who don't like concealed carry or even private gun ownership. If you back down for open carry, where are you going to draw the line later? Maybe if more people carried openly where it is legal, it would be legal in more places.

I don't think that there is a "RIGHT" to carry on private property, especially when the owner or owners representative asks you not to. Your "RIGHT" to open carry overrides my rights as a store owner? I don't think so. Can you site for me where in Colorado statute it says you may enter a private business or property and the property owner cannot ask you to leave? It appears to me that what you think is "RIGHT" should go for everyone, whether they like it or not. Did I misunderstand your point? Help me out.

amathis
You concealed carry only advocates need to get off your high horses and look at the bigger picture.

I didn't think that anyone was on a high horse on this thread. Unless those posts were deleted by the moderator. I think most of what I read here was "If you open carry, you are going to draw attention to yourself - Live with your choice" Maybe you could site some examples of "high horse".

I will line up with the OP to protect his right to open carry in public anytime. I won't line up with anyone to step on a private property owners rights.

 

[WhyteP38]

jglsprings
I don't think that there is a "RIGHT" to carry on private property, especially when the owner or owners representative asks you not to. Your "right" to open carry overrides my rights as a store owner? I don't think so. Can you site for me where in Colorado statute it says you may enter a private business or property and the property owner cannot ask you to leave?

Can you cite anywhere in my post where I wrote that anyone has a "RIGHT" to carry on private property?

I'll save you some time: I didn't.

Here's part of what I wrote regarding that exact point:

Plus, it is private property, and if they don't want open carry, that's their call. Private businesses have rights too.

The state law allows open carry. The OP said that he openly carried in a store where he had done so before without problem. Seems to me, he was not overriding any store owner's rights. He also had a reasonable expectation to carry openly when he arrived on the particular day at issue.

Furthermore, he wrote:

After our chat, she said she would go ask her manager to see if I could carry in the store or not. I thanked her for asking, mentioning that I hoped to be able to continue with my shopping, and assuring her that I meant no harm.

Moments latter she returned and told me “Everything is fine; you can go ahead with your shopping.”​

Once again, the OP was NOT overriding any store owner's rights. At that point, he supposedly had the store manager's permission. The manager was not asking him to leave. Two store employees, who were NOT the manager and had not consulted the manager, were the ones who told him to leave. My understanding of business organizational structures is that the manger's decisions trump those of the employees he or she supervises.

It appears to me that what you think is "RIGHT" should go for everyone, whether they like it or not. Did I misunderstand your point? Help me out.

Obviously, you either didn't read what I wrote or you couldn't comprehend what you read.

I'll help you out: Next time, get your facts straight.

 

[dabigguns357]

As someone who works for walmart,i do agree that most walmarts don't care about a costumer who is causing problems.

Now for the real facts about walmart.

The company abides by the state rules when it comes to carrying guns in their store,meaning that if it's ok to open carry or even conceal carry you can do so.The people that asked you to leave were probably told by someone else that they had a problem with you carrying which set off the chain of events that lead to you getting kicked out of walmart.

I have had to defuse several situations just like this and will always side with the gun owner.Some soccer mom or granny got a scardy hair and complained because they felt threatened which i don't understand,how many of those same people pass cops everyday and yet say nothing.

More often than not walmart employees don't know even the most basic of laws and run with whatever they are told.This kind of thing happens a lot more than most people think and if it ever happens in my store,whatever store it may be i will do my part to make sure every costumer feels welcome.To bad you didn't come to my store,not only would i have defused the situation but you would had no problem continue to shop freely.

As for op/ vs c/c there are times that i think c/c is the only option,but there are times when i wished that i could open carry just because i get tired of always trying to find something to cover my guns with.It would be nice to wear a nice tucked in oxford shirt and pair of tan shorts or pants and know i could slide my gun,leather holster on and walk around without being eye balled.

_________________________________________________________________
IT'S BETTER TO HAVE A GUN ON YOUR HIP THAN ONE TO YOUR HEAD.

 

[christcorp]

I'm all for our rights. Especially the right to carry a weapon. I spent 21 years in the military with the constitution as one of my main reasons. But all rights, no matter what they are, are not absolute. When other's rights are involved, including private property owners, there must be some compromising. This doesn't mean that a person loses their rights, just that their rights are not more important than someone else's rights. And as long as you have the right to liberty, and are not FORCED to be where you are and FORCED to stay there, then you have the right to leave. Therefor, you take your other rights with you. The OP did the right thing. The walmart folks, were also within their rights. (Now, whether that's the official walmart policy of that store or not, is a separate issue). But there are definitely those who open carry simply for the reaction and to push their right on others. That's fine. But don't be surprised when those people that you are pushing your rights on, push back with THEIR rights. In which case, the private property own SHOULD ALWAYS WIN.

 

[OldMarksman]

Seems to me, he was not overriding any store owner's rights. He also had a reasonable expectation to carry openly when he arrived on the particular day at issue.

I agree. He was carrying openly and he left when he was asked to leave. Had he refused, however, he would have been trespassing.

He also had a reasonable expectation to carry openly when he arrived on the particular day at issue.

True, absent any signage to the contrary.

At that point [when he had been told “Everything is fine; you can go ahead with your shopping”], he supposedly had the store manager's permission.

I would have assumed the same thing, at the time.

Two store employees, who were NOT the manager and had not consulted the manager, were the ones who told him to leave.

I see no substantive indication that neither of the employees were in management positions, nor is there any way to know that. However, it really doesn't matter. The OP was requested by a person who was clearly representing the local Walmart to leave, and he was obligated to abide by that request.

My understanding of business organizational structures is that the manger's decisions trump those of the employees he or she supervises.

True. However, the OP was faced with the choice of complying with the request or having the police called. The delegation of authority within the Walmart organization is an internal business matter and does not enter into the situation.

I sincerely hope that the resolution of this issue does not involve the prohibition of all firearms, whether carried openly or concealed, in all Walmart stores.

We have four major grocery chains in our area (excluding Walmart). When concealed carry by licensed citizens became a reality some years ago, one of them posted "no firearms" signs. You can guess which one I chooses to patronize last.

Let's keep those signs out of Walmart.

 

[m.p.driver]

I open carry when i'm biking or hiking in the woods,other wise it's CCW.I have to agree with an earlier statement in that you don't want to pull unwanted interest down on yourself.In a situation where someone has the intent to rob a place ,who are they going to take out first?.Maybe the guy walking around with a pistol on his belt.

 

[WhyteP38]

I see no substantive indication that neither of the employees were in management positions, nor is there any way to know that. However, it really doesn't matter. The OP was requested by a person who was clearly representing the local Walmart to leave, and he was obligated to abide by that request.

Judging by the context of the OP's post, he gave no indications that the two later employees were managers. In fact, he used the word "employees" not "managers." Also, he clearly stated that the previous employee had spoken to a manager. That's why I wrote that the matter was between the two later employees and management, not between the two later employees and the OP.

True. However, the OP was faced with the choice of complying with the request or having the police called. The delegation of authority within the Walmart organization is an internal business matter and does not enter into the situation.

Actually, it does enter into the situation. The OP was already complying with store policy as decided by a manager, and a decision regarding store policy is a management decision. It becomes an external business matter when it involves a customer, as in the OP's case.

I have actually had the situation of going to a Walmart for a refund of an item that was defective. The first customer service employee told me that I could not get a refund, which I knew was incorrect, so I politely asked to see a manager. The manager showed up, checked my item, and told me I was due a refund, and walked off. By that time, the first employee had gone on to assist someone else. The second employee I talked to also said I could not get a refund, so I had to have the manager come back, at which point he decided to stay and make sure things were done correctly. (I still gladly shop there because that's the only problem I've ever had, and the place is the cleanest store in town.)

If I had followed your logic, the second employee's decision would have trumped the manager's decision, and I would not have received my refund.

If you want to accept the decision of a non-manager over that of a manager, that's your choice. However, that's not how I do things.

 

[hickstick_10]

question for the OP

what type of gun were you carrying, in what kind of holster.? Perhaps a less easily recognizable holstering method would make life easier for you?

If you were carrying a long slide 1911 tucked in the belt......well thats just ridiculous.

 

[pacerdude]

"#5 I would not have bothered you thinking you were probably a law enforcement officer in plain clothes. No one usually open carries like that unless they are the law..."

I agree JohnH1963!

Even though I have become more familiar with the gun world in the last few years, when I see a confident, well dressed individual with a gun at his side, my first reaction is to assume that he is some type of LEO. Of course I believe that here in GA we have much stricter laws regarding Open Carry.

That's why I cant wait to get my permit. As soon as I have time to go by the DMVS and change the address on my license, I will apply for my permit.

 

[timber_ghost]

I try to avoid wal-mart every chance i get!
I picked up the wrong ammo there one time and
I took to take it back and they acted like i was a terrorist!
I didn't go back for 6 months.

 

[ATW525]

As for those who derided the OP's choice to legally open carry, I don't know why you want to cater to the hypersensitivity of people who don't like guns.

I don't know why I'd want to invite confrontations with those people when I can exercise my second amendment right just as easily without making them uncomfortable. I get to be happy to continue to go armed and they get to be happy in their ignorance of that fact. Seems like a win-win to me.

 

[WhyteP38]

I try to avoid wal-mart every chance i get!
I picked up the wrong ammo there one time and
I took to take it back and they acted like i was a terrorist!
I didn't go back for 6 months.

You might want to try a different Walmart store. They are not all the same.

When I lived in California, every Walmart I went into was a dump with sticky floors like bad movie theaters and half-emptied shipping boxes in the aisles and crap all over the place. The only time I ever went was when the wife insisted on going.

Where I live now, there are 3 Walmarts. One is a dump that doesn't even have self-check-out stands because they can't trust their customers. The second one is tolerably clean, but the neighborhood is such that you never want to be caught there after dark unless you have body armor and body guards. The third one is clean and friendly. The only reason I had a problem that one time was because I was returning an item I had purchased from Walmart.com. Returns of online purchases is something they aren't up to speed on. They were nice about it, but they didn't really know what to do.

I have found several others like the third one when I go to nearby towns, so I know there are good ones out there. And in my state, none of them have ever posted any "no firearms" or "no concealed firearms" signs.

 

[WhyteP38]

I don't know why I'd want to invite confrontations with those people when I can exercise my second amendment right just as easily without making them uncomfortable. I get to be happy to continue to go armed and they get to be happy in their ignorance of that fact. Seems like a win-win to me.

I was in the Navy before Desert Storm. At that time, you were more likely to be jeered than cheered if you went places in uniform.

My wife is Asian, and we've had our share of stares and insults (and still do) simply because we dare to go out and about in public.

I never have and never will consider being in uniform or being with my wife as inviting confrontations. I never stopped doing either one of those things. The people who got upset and those who still do are people who upset themselves. Whether it's a win-win or not is irrelevant.

 

[darkgael]

Expectations

Every time I read about a situation like this one, I think to myself - not whether the party involved should or should not be carrying openly, not whether he or she is wise or unwise to do so - just the question "what did you expect?" There was nothing in that tale that could not have been forseen.
If I wear a gun openly into enough places of business, I'm going to get criticized some of the time. It comes with the territory.
Y'know there was a fellow at another forum who did the legal, open carry thing during the last Presidential campaign. He approached a rally for Mr. Obama in a public park. The Secret Service was not impressed with the legality. In the end, he was vindicated. And a lot poorer. Certainly it was a difficult time for him and his family.
I had the same thought then - "what did you expect would happen?" It would have made no difference who the candidate was - George Bush, Ron Paul, John McCain. Legal or not....if I approach a political rally like that with a gun openly and legally carried, I am probably going to jail. The Walmart story is just a variation on the theme.
About carrying because the crime rate is up. Yep. That may be a good reason for us to carry. The issue, though, is that other people - don't call them sheep - they are people making their way like all of us - other people read those "crime is up" stories or the mass murders at colleges and military bases...and then they see you walk into a store with a gun on your belt.
Do you, do I, have a special aura about that says "good guy here, not to worry". No.
Pete

 

[WhyteP38]

Every time I read about a situation like this one, I think to myself - not whether the party involved should or should not be carrying openly, not whether he or she is wise or unwise to do so - just the question "what did you expect?"

I guess he expected the same thing that happened on his previous open-carry visits to that store: Nothing.

 

[L_Killkenny]

Quote:
As for those who derided the OP's choice to legally open carry, I don't know why you want to cater to the hypersensitivity of people who don't like guns.

I don't know why I'd want to invite confrontations with those people when I can exercise my second amendment right just as easily without making them uncomfortable. I get to be happy to continue to go armed and they get to be happy in their ignorance of that fact. Seems like a win-win to me.

During the recent hysteria over Starbucks statements to not interfere with people legally carrying guns in their stores I had the pleasure of reading some very insightful remarks from some sheep. One in particular stuck in my mind, "Who are you trying to intimidate?". My answer to this question is "why are you intimidated?". IMO, if someone is intimidated by a gun in a holster it speaks volumes about them not about the person carrying. There is absolutely no reason a person shouldn't open carry if it's legal. The "marked target" excuse has been debunked by a lack of incidents and if more people carried open the general public would get more used to it. If you don't want to then fine, but if John Doe wants too more power to em. If the sheep are scared it's their problem. Be civil to em but I'm not gonna spend much time on em either.

LK

 

[indykappa]

i don't know how to "quote" previous posts, but there are quite a few that seem to question the rationale behind a person's decision to open carry.

first of all, i just want to say WOW...JUST WOW. this message board is made up thousands of people who enjoy firearms (in one method or another). there are a lot of people who don't "understand" why we carry, but we ridicule them and call them sheep. if you are dogging someone out for their style of carry, you (in my opinion) are just as much of a sheep as they are

second, i have mentioned my reasons for open carrying before. i am a 30 yr old black male. people don't get the "warm fuzzies" when they picture YOUNG BLACK MEN WITH GUNS. it is because of this that i choose to open carry. i want to educate people who are ignorant about guns as well as people who are just plain ignorant. when you see me, you may see me in a suit or in a cut-off tshirt. some of you guys/gals really blow my mind!

the OP was within his legal right to OC. why are people bashing him?! pot...meet kettle...

 

[ATW525]

I was in the Navy before Desert Storm. At that time, you were more likely to be jeered than cheered if you went places in uniform.

My wife is Asian, and we've had our share of stares and insults (and still do) simply because we dare to go out and about in public.

I never have and never will consider being in uniform or being with my wife as inviting confrontations. I never stopped doing either one of those things. The people who got upset and those who still do are people who upset themselves. Whether it's a win-win or not is irrelevant.

And I'm sure that not being with your wife or being able to wear your uniform would have been tremendous and unreasonable sacrifices on your part. However I don't consider my choice to carry concealed instead of openly to be sacrificing anything. I'm still exercising my 2nd Amendment right and I'm still equipped to protect my family if I need to do so. Perhaps there's a small inconvenience in having to cover up, but I consider that to be substantially outweighed by the avoidance of situations like the OP's.

 

[oneounceload]

I picked up the wrong ammo there one time and
I took to take it back and they acted like i was a terrorist!

I have never known a store to take back ammo - liability issues and all.

Perhaps you should have bought the correct ammo in the first place