How Not To Get Shot By A Good Guy

[David Armstrong]

I suspect that they were confused with the badguy probably because they didn't have their badge displayed.

You would be wrong on several occasions. Plainclothes officers, off-duty officers, have been shot, even with their badges, because they didn’t do what they were told and thus were perceived as a threat.

Why do law enforcement officers working undercover wear them around their necks?

Again you make an unwarranted assumption. Many undercover officers do not carry badges at all, and few carry them around their necks. Too easy to spot.

I suspect that in the best of times it will save my life.

And that is why so many of us rail against the idea, it provides a false sense of security.

 

[David Armstrong]

Lets say you see a Crown Vic Police Interceptor speeding or pull an illegal turn. Would you pull the car over just like any other vehicle? Be honest.

By the time you can figure out it is a police intercepter you have probably already stopped it.

 

[workingstiff]

I’m sorry to say this, but I read through all the threads and I think my initial impression, is that that someone bought a CCW badge and Wallet ID holder, and is trying to justify carrying the same.

Alert to all like minded folks: you are not a LEO.

The chances of you rolling up on a felony in progress are close to zero. The additional probability of you being able to stop the felony and flash your purchased badge and hold the perp at bay is below zero.

Me myself, if I somehow found myself in the rare position of stopping a felony arrest in progress and then the police happened to roll up on “my crime scene.” (I’m more worried about covering my retreat)

I would safely remove my weapon from the threat scenario (toss to the side, or otherwise follow LEO orders), assume a non-threatening position (hands on head, on the ground if so ordered, etc.) and then proceed as so indicated by the Officer-In-Charge.

Flashing a look-a-like badge may indeed buy me a few seconds, it is the actions after that will predicate what action the LEO takes, I hope it’s good for me.

ADVISE: Quit driving a LEO look-a-like vehicle. Move out of your parent’s house. .Find a civilian job.

I also live in Tampa. Sorry, but I think your opinion polls are not statistically valid. My experience indicates that the police are not looking for armed citizen partners.

If you would like to get additional ideas, just call the recognized LEO agency in your area.

 

[njtrigger]

Hehe. The reason I asked about the Crown Vic is because the morning commute around here is rough. I noticed that, in the fast lane, most cars pull out of the way for any Crown Vic whether it be the retiree, a taxicab, etc. They are relatively cheap around here used, about 5 grand, and if it can give me an advantage in the morning traffic and add some minutes to my valuable time then why not?

 

[easyG]

First, as a citizen, its your duty to avoid and retreat if at all possible. (in most states) In some states its written into the law where you have the duty to retreat.

I've heard this said time and time again, especially here on this forum, but I have never seen anything in legal form that dictates that a person, when confronted with the threat of bodily harm or death, has the "duty" to avoid or retreat from that threat.

Does anyone have a link to any STATE legal site that says this?

 

[Lurper]

It varies from state to state. I can't tell you what states require retreat, only that AZ does not. You could try www.packing.org or research each state's laws individually.

 

[threegun]

NJtrigger, The same reason people pull aside or slow down at the sight of a crown vic is why police ignore them while speed trapping.

Working Stiff,

ADVISE: Quit driving a LEO look-a-like vehicle. Move out of your parent’s house. .Find a civilian job.

Drive an expedition, live in my own home, and have a civilian job. Have no desire to be or act like a police officer. If I rolled up on a felony in progress and was able to roll back out I would be thankful.

I’m sorry to say this, but I read through all the threads and I think my initial impression, is that that someone bought a CCW badge and Wallet ID holder, and is trying to justify carrying the same.

If you would like to get additional ideas, just call the recognized LEO agency in your area.

If you had read through all the posts you would have noticed that I have talked with more than a dozen officers and deputies from TPD and HCSO including 2 who are family members. I clearly posted that following responding officers commands is a must. You also would have noticed that the furthest thing from my mind is playing cop. My only intent (if you had read) was to cause a delay.......

Flashing a look-a-like badge may indeed buy me a few seconds

.......and you seem to agree that this will do just that.

 

[threegun]

David, Our sources completely disagree and I am supposed to believe that you are being honest? I mean come on your people are 100 percent against it and think it won't help prevent an accident. You constantly remind me that I have added things to your writings and I can't help but believe that you added things when you asked your people if a badge would delay them from shooting if the person wasn't posing a danger to the officer and complied with all instructions.

You seem to be of the mindset that all officers are professional and would never shoot to soon. I believe that most are professional but a few might shoot to soon. Still the badge might delay those few unprofessional officers and the thousands of unprofessional CCP holders.

The main thing is that coupled with following instructions (obviously) the badge will further reduce my chances of being mistaken for the criminal (according to my sources anyway). That is my only goal for using it.

 

[David Armstrong]

David, Our sources completely disagree and I am supposed to believe that you are being honest? I mean come on your people are 100 percent against it and think it won't help prevent an accident.

The main problem there is that it isn't just "my people". john posted a couple of links where LE was opposed to the concept, and most of the posters here in this thread tha have commented on the issue seem to also be opposed to it. In fact, the only support seems to be coming from these face-to-face contacts you have, which seem different from all the internet sources. Rather strange.

You constantly remind me that I have added things to your writings

Only when you add things to my writings.

I can't help but believe that you added things when you asked your people if a badge would delay them from shooting if the person wasn't posing a danger to the officer and complied with all instructions.

There you go adding things to what I said again. That wasn't what I said to them, nor was it the way that you posed the issue. You have again tried to change the discussion. Your initial claim was, "I bought a badge that looks like those carried by police. In the event that I shoot someone or am holding someone at gunpoint I will hold this badge (in a black wallet style holder) high above my head. The mere sight of this badge will cause police,ccw's and other good guys to pause before shooting." Based on that premise, my question was simple and twofold. As close as I can remember I asked: 1. Would a person unknown to you flashing a badge in a gun scenario change the way you would respond to the call or the person? 2. Do you think a non-LE flashing a badge at a crime scene is a good idea? The response to both questions was NO.
Again, if you do not pose a threat to them they aren't going to just suddenly run up and start shooting you, so the badge doesn't matter. If you do present a danger to them the badge won't stop them. The badge doesn't matter, you might as well wave around a ham sandwich.

Still the badge might delay those few unprofessional officers and the thousands of unprofessional CCP holders.

There is that false sense of security again.

 

[threegun]

David, I talked with my people for a good bit of time. I asked them not only what they thought of the idea but what the first thing to cross their minds upon approaching someone holding another at gunpoint both with and without a badge. To an officer they said it would make them pause. They didn't say they would shoot me if I didn't have the badge just that it would indeed cause them to pause. They said that their first thought was the guy holding the badge was the good guy. The guy on the ground was the bad guy.

Again, if you do not pose a threat to them they aren't going to just suddenly run up and start shooting you, so the badge doesn't matter.

You may be preceived by police or others as a threat to the person you are holding at gunpoint David. After all you are pointing a gun at them.

A citizen with a CCW might try to play hero thinking this bald headed spick (me) is about to kill an innocent citizen. After all I am pointing a gun at them.

You are right that the badge will probably not be needed when confronted by a professional police officer. David they are not the only folks out there.

I know that the presence of a badge will cause the overwhelming majority of good guys to pause. My personal interviews have been unanimous. Given our history David I simply can't trust your info although I appreciate your effort if genuine.

If you walked up on the scene of a man holding a gun on another and he holds up a badge what does that mean to you David?

Go or bad to me it means the goodguy has the badge and the badguy is on the ground. To a man it meant the same to every officer I asked.

 

[kozak6]

Threegun, you are asking the wrong question.

There's a damn fine chance holding up a badge at a crime scene will make good guys pause.

Why? Because police carry badges.

You are not a policeman.

Holding up a badge makes them think you are.

Impersonating the police is generally illegal, and hence, a bad idea.

Do you follow that?

The question you should be asking all of your law enforcement buddies is, "Do you think it's a good idea to go around flashing a fake badge if I end up lawfully shooting someone in self defense?"

 

[threegun]

Kozak, I did ask if they felt it was impersonating provided I don't do or say anything suggesting that I am LE and provided my CCL was also in the wallet. They said no.

The second to last thing I want is to go to jail. The last thing I want is to get shot.

Holding up a badge makes them think you are.

Lots of wrong assumptions are made daily. If a policeman were to see me a bald, brown skinned, somewhat menacing looking, aggressively build man holding a gun on a cowering, begging, hands in the air criminal, he might make the wrong assumption. If he feels that I am an eminent danger to the innocent looking criminal (considering I'm pointing a gun at them his assumption would be somewhat justifiable) I might be hurt or killed. Lots of people out of LE have badges property inspectors, firefighter etc. The responding officers make an assumption based on what they see. My goal is to make that assumption a predictable one. One that ends well for me. Until they get the facts to support their visual assumption that is. Yes I am the good guy officer. Oh you though I was LE no sir just my CCP ID.

 

[kozak6]

Except that those are real badges issued by a legitimate source of authority, as opposed to one you picked up at a flea market.

 

[Hard Ball]

Anyone who shoots at mr IS NOT A GOOD GUY!

 

[njtrigger]

Let me put it this way. Holding up a fake badge might or might not save your life that is debatable.

However, I do know that the police will arrest you or the prosecutor will most probably charge you with something. The judge will not be kind and you might even serve time in jail and/or pay a hefty fine. In any event, there will be something on your record and your right to bear arms might be taken away.

So the likelihood of you getting shot or not by holding up a fake badge is debatable. The likelihood of you getting arrested and facing the impersonating an officer charges (which may be a felony in some areas) is very high and more then likely.

How many officers here would arrest someone like this for holding up a fake badge even if the logic at the time seemed rather sound? The officers have a job and when the law is broken in front of them they will arrest you even if the intentions were good. They will do their job and arrest you, let the judge and prosecutor sort out the rest.

When Im speeding on the highway, then I will be given a ticket even if I was taking a loved one to the hospital which seems like a good reason to speed. In the same way, you will be arrested for displaying a fake badge even if your intentions were not to get shot at the time.

Now Im not saying this is a good or bad idea or one in which that is effective or not effective, however, it is an idea that will most likely get you arrested, charged and convicted of a crime that might be a felony in some areas of the nation.

 

[gvf]

My Dashboard Card

Cars were getting their aluminum wheels and xeon lights ripped off of their cars on a street in NYC where I was living for awhile. I took off the computer a seal of the State of NY, enlarged it, printed underneath the name of the state agency I happen to work for (initials) and the year with more initials of the agency, had it laminated, and placed it nightly on my dash. It is very common in NYC to see official dash notices of all kinds, cops, firemen, priests, etc., most (excepting the police dash-cards of course) in a useless attempt to keep from getting ticketed by the millions of NY Traffic Police all over the place. VERY large fines (e.g. $65 is the cheapest parking fine - if by a meter, that's new tkt EVERY hour AND they come back. Cost of monthly parking in my neighborhood is $600/mo. Cost to buy a private parking space in condo building: e.g.: one building on 17th St, $225,000, just a space, no walls; there's a waiting-list). Anyway, you get the idea.

But mine was in hopes a thief might pass by car and choose another, with a slight worry I was a state official and ripping me off might cause him problems. Sort of like a steering wheel lock: they can be cut off (actually the steering wheel is cut) but it's like: "too much of hassle, I'll go to the next car")

Don't know if it helped but I never got ripped off, and the sign is not an attempt to impersonate any agency, just the state seal. Fact, I still use it in my home-city when not in NYC.

The CCW Badge though, that is too much and seems like it's a bit whacky-looking and might entice a DA to file charges in terms of the shooting itself if anything was problematic to begin with - or looked to be, or it might look bad to a jury in a civil case. No thanks.

PS: (can't resist this note about NYC Parking, it's so insane): 3 weeks ago while there, I was 3 min late moving my car for street cleaning, a 2x a week, hour and a half ritual, where everyone goes to their cars on the affected side of the street at 9:30 am or whatever, deftly pulls their car out of the space and double park directly across from the now empty space on opposite side of the one-way street; (where it's legal that day and all the spaces are taken. The police allow double-parking as long as you're in the car). It's so hard to get a space in NYC that everyone just leaves their cars when they find a space for days and weeks, but have to move it and quickly on street cleaning day - if you go around the block the space will be gone. After street cleaner leaves, all deftly and quickly pull back to the original space and sit in their cars for the next hour and a half. (It's legal to park if you're in the car so long as it was gone when cleaner was through).You read the papers, some do office work, others have breakfasts delivered, chat on their cells etc. At 11:00 am. all lock their cars and walk away in unison until next time.

I got my ticket after begging officers to give me a break to no avail. $65. If you are ticketed once for this violation and ticket is on your car, you won't be again. I took the ticket the cop had put in my hand and went back to my apt., realized I had the ticket and it was not on the car, rushed back, and BINGO: already had another. Total elapsed time: 8 min. Total cost: $130.

 

[David Armstrong]

David, I talked with my people for a good bit of time.

Perhaps that is the problem. You keep talking with “your people” and ignoring what all the other people are telling you.

You may be perceived by police or others as a threat to the person you are holding at gunpoint David. After all you are pointing a gun at them.

You keep failing to understand this point. When you are pointing a gun at another person YOU ARE A THREAT. If you do not immediately follow the nice police officer’s instructions, steps will be taken to counter that threat. Waving a badge doesn’t change that.

I know that the presence of a badge will cause the overwhelming majority of good guys to pause.

There is that false sense of security again. Let me give you a real eye-opener. Go talk with a few LEOs and give them this situation: you (the LEO) respond to a "shots fired, man with a gun" call. When you get there somebody you have never seen before, waving around a badge that does not appear to be from a local agency, is pointing a gun at a man on the ground, threatening him. You (LE) tell the guy to step back and drop the gun. The guy quickly turns toward you, pointing the gun your direction instead of doing what you tell them. What will you do?

My personal interviews have been unanimous.

And those who have not been personally interviewed by you seem almost unanimous in a completely opposite view. Why do you think that is? Why is everyone you talk to saying one thing, but virtually everyone else saying something else? Remember, it is not just me, you have a number of folks just on this thread that disagree with your position. If I got the count right, of those that have commented on the badge concept here there have been 17 that have been opposed to one degree or another, while only 3 have supported the idea. Review the threads that John posted, and you will find similar results.

If you walked up on the scene of a man holding a gun on another and he holds up a badge what does that mean to you David?

It means exactly the same thing as if I walk up on a scene and he doesn’t hold up a badge: that he needs to do exactly what the friendly policeman says and we’ll exchange pleasantries later when I find out what is going on. The badge doesn't change any of the dynamics.

If a policeman were to see me a bald, brown skinned, somewhat menacing looking, aggressively build man holding a gun on a cowering, begging, hands in the air criminal, he might make the wrong assumption.

You still have not answered this basic question--WHY are you holding this fellow at gunpoint? Particularly if he is cowering, begging, hands in the air, etc.? I can almost guarantee that if you are holding someone at gunpoint and waving a badge around that you will be considered to be impersonating an officer.

Lots of people out of LE have badges property inspectors, firefighter etc.

Which is why waving a badge around doesn’t mean much. I think you just proved my point. Having a badge doesn't automatically mean that you are a LEO, or even that you are a good guy.

 

[Xenia]

Just for the sake of thinking this situation out for myself here is what I would do.

If I had tried to stop someone but didn't need to shoot them and they had sat on the ground instead of running while the police were on thier way.....

if someone approached I would ask them to call 911 because the guy had tried to assault me. If I had called 911 already I would tell them I did and ask if they would call 911 too so I could better watch the guy.

If the guy wanted to run away, I would let him but I wouldn't suggest it.

When the police showed up. I would do exactly as they told me. Even if they wanted me to lay on the ground, etc.

I would however be quickly telling my side of the story! (I don't have a badge so that issue is moot for me.)

I might have a different point of view on this because of working at a Prison and having training in what to do in riots or if held hostage. We are taught to expect to be arrested at least briefly until authorities know what is what. That is for the safety of everyone.

 

[threegun]

David, Why do you continue to assume that I won't be following the nice policeman's orders? Why do you keep posting as if I plan on waving my gun around. You seem to think that I believe the badge is going to allow me to act irresponsibly. Perhaps your inability to understand what I posted has somehow biased your view. I mean heck I said several times that I would follow all orders by police and that the badge was only to give them and CCP'ers pause in the rare event that they might shoot prematurely.

Now I understand why your people keep coming up so opposite my people. You have this idea that A. I'm trying to play copper. B. You think I believe the badge is a "magic talisman" that will allow me to point my gun at cops and not follow instructions.

Perhaps that is the problem. You keep talking with “your people” and ignoring what all the other people are telling you.

So your people, internet commando's for all I know, should trump Tampa Police officers and Hillsborough County Sheriffs Deputies? Are you serious? Why would you insult fellow officers like that?

If you walk up on the situation of a man holding a gun and a badge on another person and it doesn't give you an idea of who is the good guy in this scenario there really is no point in arguing further. Every single person I have asked said they would pause. Its obvious you just want to argue, something you have a history of doing. You have made assumptions despite me explaining otherwise. Assumptions that I feel have biased you and your people.

 

[threegun]

NJtrigger,
I asked many officers in person including showing them the badge and permit and they seem to think that impersonation laws are not broken by simply holding up the badge and permit.

The first officer I asked (TPD I believe) even said before I asked that it would give him an idea of who the bad guy was. Of course he said that I had better not wave the gun around or act stupid with it (not that I would anyway). Still my point, that it causes a pause was reinforced. It has been reinforced many more time since. Until I posted here that is. Come to find out those arguing seem to be biased or otherwise adding stuff into the mix.

If you feel it is not proper or safe don't do it. I am convinced that it will work to keep me safe and that it isn't against the law. My sources are unanimous here. Thats all that matters for me.