How Not To Get Shot By A Good Guy

[JohnKSa]

I mean you say your friends reject my idea.

CCW badges have been available for many years, some think they're a great idea, from what I've seen, most think they're not. Either way it's hardly your idea that's being rejected. Here's a thread from 7 years ago discussing this topic.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33963

The fourth post on that thread correctly indicates that (even 7 years ago) this topic had been thoroughly debated and provides a reasonably accurate assessment of the results.

The eighth post is by an LEO (Jeff White) and is decidedly negative about the idea.

The tenth post is also by an LEO (Lawdog) and could also be described as decidedly negative.

Here's another from around 6 years ago.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=56609.

 

[threegun]

John. Not a problem dude. I just made the suggestion. I don't care to take credit.

Let me ask you. Would you delay in shooting if you saw a man holding a badge while holding a person at gunpoint? Everyone I have asked from law enforcement to ordinary citizens has said that they would avoid shooting the badged one unless they made a hostile movement. If I saw a man holding a badge he certainly would get the benefit of my doubt. This might cost me my life and I understand that as most do however a badge is usually an indication of the good guy and folks treat its holder as such until proven otherwise. I found that police tend to give minorities less benefit of doubt. I am Hispanic and want extra insurance.

 

[JohnKSa]

If I had seen the situation develop then I would make my (shoot/no shoot/who to shoot) decision based on the circumstances of the situation, not on who held up something shiny in their weak hand. If I hadn't seen the situation develop, I would be EXTREMELY cautious about inserting myself into it and would almost certainly use my cell phone rather than my gun.

I can't speak for other CHL holders, it's possible that some, most, or even all of them would give the guy with the badge preferential treatment. I'd LIKE to think that they would take the same approach I would...

Not being in LE, I can only guess at what they'll do. I think that LEOs realize that there are armed citizens and undercover cops out there and they are therefore not going to show up and instantly shoot anyone with a gun. My guess is that if LE comes on the scene to find someone holding another person at gunpoint, the determination of whether to shoot or not will depend on whether the person with the gun immediately complies with their commands and on very little else.

In short, if the CCW badge is supposed to prevent you from being shot the instant LE shows up, it's probably unneccessary--I don't see that happening regardless of whether you hold up a badge or not. If the CCW badge is supposed to exempt you from following LE instructions, I don't think it's going to be effective. You're probably going to have to drop your gun and get face down whether you have a badge or not. That's just my opinion.

I'm not as dogmatic on this issue as some. I don't really see having a CCW badge as being a problem and wouldn't advise against it if that's what you want to do. I'm just not sold on the idea that it would really be effective.

You MIGHT get hassled if you showed it to a cop in a situation OTHER than a shooting--some LEOs seem to have a very negative view of the idea--but I can't see them making a big issue of it in a deadly force situation as long as you are on the "right side".

 

[Tim Burke]

The problem the responding cops have is that they don't know the players, and you're standing there with a gun in your hand. Their problem is unchanged if you have a badge in your support hand. If they show up and your weapon is concealed, your hands are in front of your body and your palms are out, they will perceive the situation much differently.

 

[DougO83]

yea but

A CCW gives you no special powers to hold suspects.

In Texas, even an unarmed, private citizen can make an "arrest" for a breacj of peace. That includes fighting and most Class A misdemeanors and felonies, provided they are committed in your actual presence. You do not lose that right or responsibility upon becoming CCW trained.

 

[JohnKSa]

You do not lose that right or responsibility upon becoming CCW trained.

Nor does that training give you any rights in that regard over a non-CCW trained citizen. Thus it gives you no SPECIAL powers to hold suspects.

In other words, any powers that you have to hold suspects are ALREADY there as a result of your being a citizen and do not come from having CCW training or credentials.

 

[threegun]

John, I'm not worried about most police officers and most armed citizens. Its the few less professional officers and rambo citizens that concern me.

Imagine running up on a spick (me) who has just been forced to shoot an armed robber. While holding this guy at gunpoint he puts his hands up in the surrender/prayer don't shoot me position. Johnny law or Joe citizen only see this prayer position and Johnny law knows shots have been fired and someones down. The spick (me) might not get the benefit of the doubt. David Armstrong most likely will get it being a clean cut older white man. I can promise you that LE gives less quarter to Hispanics and even less to blacks.

I have now asked 14 officers from two agencies (including 2 family members) and literally dozens of citizens including at least 6 that hold concealed firearms licenses. Every single one of them has said it would cause them to pause. I know it would cause me to pause (not that I would engage without knowing the situation but some might). Even those who think the idea is stupid (several of the citizens) said it would cause them to pause. They had concerns with impersonation issues.

I really believe that many of you guys who say it won't cause you to pause are saying so to skew the debate. The sight of a man holding a badge gives an instant mental message of who the good guy is. To argue otherwise is just not being genuine. Its the reason under cover guys carry a chain w/ badge around their necks. It allows responders to sort out the good from the bad instantly, otherwise undercover wouldn't need it around their necks right.

 

[WIN71]

I can't stand this any more !

As much as I hate to semi agree with Threegun I must. Yes it would probably cause an officer to hesitate momentarily. Is it a good idea? I don't think so. In the first place it is very unlikely an officer will come out instantly blasting simply because he sees a man with a gun pointed in some other direction. If you are seriously worrying about that then you may as well worry about some wantabe hero taxi driver running over your a&&. Lots of things would probably cause a copper to hesitate. A fireman’s hat, priests collar, doctor coat with stethoscope, and a hundred other things. It's how you look, act , your total demeanor that will be analyzed almost instantly that will influence a shoot-don't shoot reaction. If you swing the weapon around towards the cop and he feels threatened you will probably get shot, badge or not. There’s lots of badges out there. Dog the bounty hunter even has one.
Some of the arguments in favor of this tactic claim the holder is not trying to impersonate a police officer because the badge plainly has something else written on it, i.e. CCW. Yet by holding it up high the claim is it may cause a responding officer to hesitate thinking for a moment he was facing another police officer. Like it or not you are impersonating a peace officer. A crime that will probably be completely ignored because of the circumstances. So long as you can convince everyone that reviews and sues that you weren’t out there pretending to be a cop and shooting up the neighborhood you should be fine.

 

[threegun]

A man buys an ex unmarked police car. He drives this car everyday and speeds without getting a ticket. Is he impersonating an officer because other cops think he is LE and don't stop him?

 

[JohnKSa]

The analogy would be more accurate if this person were actually stopped and tried to use the car to get out of a ticket, IMO.

 

[Microgunner]

A man buys an ex unmarked police car. He drives this car everyday and speeds without getting a ticket. Is he impersonating an officer because other cops think he is LE and don't stop him?

I know a man, you may too, who owns a plain white Crown Victoria Police Interceptor with dog dish hub caps who says he speeds daily and has never been pulled over, let alone ticketed. He swears that the impression he might be an officer affords him carte blanche in respect to the speed limit. Maybe the badge idea would work also. At least long enough to keep you from being shot. And that's all that really matters.

 

[threegun]

The analogy would be more accurate if this person were actually stopped and tried to use the car to get out of a ticket, IMO.

To do that would require actually impersonating an officer. All I'm doing is providing my permit info which happens to have a badge in it which happens to cause officers and civilians to think twice about shooting me which happens to be my goal.

If I stopped a stranger to ask a question and pulled the badge you could argue that I had no reason to do so other than to trick that person into thinking I was a cop. I have a very good reason for pulling my permit which includes a badge while awaiting responding officers. Just so happens that like the ex cop car the badge has an effect.

 

[Mr. James]

This is just silly.

Have you ever heard of off duty officers getting shot by friendlies? I have.

So, fully trained, commissioned peace officers, possessing real, jen-yew-wine PO-lice badges (and credentials to back up the tin), are mistakenly shot by fellow officers. Yet somehow, an everyday citizen holding up a cracker-jack CCW badge (yes, I've seen the ads) is somehow going to benefit?

And the entire premise is silly - you keep referring to "won't this make cops/ccws etc. hesitate"? Hesitate from what? Gunning you down where you stand? If the responding officer or permit-holding passerby has already reached the point of whether to shoot or not shoot, I think the badge is immaterial.

As a non-LEO, I'm not shooting anyone in the scenario you envision. I am probably not physically intervening in any manner. I'm staying the hell out of the way and making a 9-1-1 call.

Go ahead and carry the badge. But I suspect in the best of times it will get you laughed at. In the worst of times it will get you arrested and charged.

 

[njtrigger]

Here are some thoughts.

First, as a citizen, its your duty to avoid and retreat if at all possible. (in most states) In some states its written into the law where you have the duty to retreat.

Second, many people would probably run from you (or at you) once the weapon is produced. You cant shoot them if they start running and if you chase after them then you put yourself at additional risk.

Third, people who do no good usually have friends to back them up. If you stick around with your pistol holding someone down then the chances increase of their friends coming and who knows what weapons they will have.

Fourth, when the police do arrive on the scene there will probably be plenty of flashing lights and sirens. When they are in your peripheral vision, you can simply put your hands up and get on your knees as a show of surrender.

Fifth, the best possible outcome would be to have the perpetrator run from you and you never see him again. Why? I have been in court defending myself lately against a $75 wrong turn ticket. I've had to do a lot of legwork with engineering diagrams of the intersection, pictures of the intersection, printouts of the law, and other such things. I had to go in front of a judge and the whole thing seemed stacked against me.

Therefore, if the court system will be stacked against you and your only possible way out is an expensive attorney, then its better that the person runs from you.

After all is said and done, you know that the perpetrator will either sue you OR the local prosecutor will try their best to nail you for something and you'll go in front of a tough judge who wants to put you behind bars.

Holding up a fake badge will probably get you shot because it will look like your taking something out of your pocket or making a fast move. Therefore, the best course of action when police arrive is to simply go to your knees and place the weapon slowly on the ground as a show of surrender.

 

[threegun]

So, fully trained, commissioned peace officers, possessing real, jen-yew-wine PO-lice badges (and credentials to back up the tin), are mistakenly shot by fellow officers. Yet somehow, an everyday citizen holding up a cracker-jack CCW badge (yes, I've seen the ads) is somehow going to benefit?

I suspect that they were confused with the badguy probably because they didn't have their badge displayed.

What does a badge displayed signify to you Mr. James? Why do law enforcement officers working undercover wear them around their necks? How is you vision such that you can spot my gumball machine badge from a distance?

If the responding officer or permit-holding passerby has already reached the point of whether to shoot or not shoot, I think the badge is immaterial.

The idea is to prevent them from reaching that point Mr. James.

As a non-LEO, I'm not shooting anyone in the scenario you envision. I am probably not physically intervening in any manner. I'm staying the hell out of the way and making a 9-1-1 call.

If everyone was like you I wouldn't need a badge now would I.

Go ahead and carry the badge. But I suspect in the best of times it will get you laughed at. In the worst of times it will get you arrested and charged.

I will. I suspect that in the best of times it will save my life.

 

[threegun]

Just asked two more permit holders shopping for guns here at the shop. Both said the sight of a badge would cause them to pause. I asked what was the first thing that someone holding a badge would signify to them. They both said it told them who the good guy was.


Many of you guys don't like the idea for whatever reason and thats cool. I have done lots of checking and one thing is unanimous, folks (including LE) say it will cause them to delay in shooting the man holding the badge. Thats enough for me.

 

[Microgunner]

First, as a citizen, its your duty to avoid and retreat if at all possible. (in most states) In some states its written into the law where you have the duty to retreat.

Used to be this way in Florida too, but not any longer. Florida law says you have the constitutional right to defend yourself or others with deadly force when threatened with grevious bodily harm. We are not required to retreat in any fashion. This holds true in our homes, in our autos or on the street. Florida is thick with old folks who don't run too well and they have strong lobbies.

 

[WIN71]

A man buys an ex unmarked police car. He drives this car everyday and speeds without getting a ticket. Is he impersonating an officer because other cops think he is LE and don't stop him?

No, but if you try to make a traffic stop with it you will be. Same with a facsimile badge. Keep it in your pocket and you'll be fine. Wave it around while you have a gun in the other hand.........maybe not.
Since I do not have a CCW I may be mistaken. My understanding is it allows you not to be charged with a violation of carrying a cancelled weapon. Once you pull that smoke pole you're pretty much on your own just like any other citizen without a CCW. A shooting is a shooting and will be investigated on its own merit. Whether or not you have a CCW hasn't got much to do with those results. About all it means is you legally carried a gun to a gun fight.

 

[njtrigger]

I do have a question about the unmarked Ford Crown Vic. This is a question for the officers.

Lets say you see a Crown Vic Police Interceptor speeding or pull an illegal turn. Would you pull the car over just like any other vehicle? Be honest.

 

[David Armstrong]

Are you trying to tell me that you and your LE friends would shoot a man holding a person at gunpoint with a badge in the other hand?

Of course not, and I didn’t say anything even close to that. For you to try and phrase it in such a manner is dishonest. There is a world of difference between "The badge makes no difference" and "I'd shoot because he has a badge".

What kind of officers do you associate with David?

Pretty good ones, IMO.

Provided no threats to your safety are made of course this is absolutely the most disgusting thing I have heard.

Again, since that is something you made up on your own, I’m sorry if you disgust yourself. However, you might want to deal with what is actually said instead of nonsensical stuff you dream up. If there is no threat then it doesn't matter if you have a badge or a box of cereal. It neither helps nor hurts.

The badge is in addition to.....

If you do what you are told, you don’t need any “in addition to....” If you don’t do what you are told, the badge won’t help. Thus it becomes irrelevant either way, which is my point.

Apparently with your LE friends who will shoot the badge holder before finding out whats going on.

No, my LE friends will do like any good LEO in the country. If you present a danger to them or to others they will stop you. If you follow instructions/directions they will not use any force beyond that necessary. The badge does not change that at all. Again, you might want to try dealing with what was said instead of some fantasy you made up on your own.

I mean you say your friends reject my idea. They say it won't work.

My friends reject the idea as being rather silly and useless. And history has shown that it won’t work. It provides a false sense of security, which is dangerous. Sorry if that disturbs you.

That means they won't pause to make sure that my badge isn't a fellow officer.

So you admit that you are using the badge to make someone think that you are a police officer? See, that is the problem. LEOs know that anybody can get a badge, thus it doesn't mean much to them. It might mean somethign to non-LE thta don't know any better, but flashing a badge at me doesn't change anything. I'll respond based on your actions, and when things settle down then we can check out each others credentials.

My guess is that if LE comes on the scene to find someone holding another person at gunpoint, the determination of whether to shoot or not will depend on whether the person with the gun immediately complies with their commands and on very little else.[/

John has summarized it quite accurately. LE won’t run up and shoot you just because you have a gun on someone. LE also probably will shoot you if you don’t do exactly what they tell you to do and are presenting a danger to them or others. The badge makes no difference.