How Not To Get Shot By A Good Guy

[newarcher]

Zactly Mike....

It isn't the fact that you are holding up a badge....it is the perception of what that badge means. I hadn't ever heard of one until you mentioned it and I thought that even after that you were joking.

I have a cop friend who pulled a guy over and the guy couldn't find his wallet. As my friend was walking back to his car, the guy leans down and pulls something out of his car and raises it above his head. While he is doing so (but before he could get the wallet above his head), my buddy drew down on him thinking that he was pulling a gun. DUMB IDEA.

The motion of raising something above your head....during an already tense situation....is asking for trouble.

Do it if you want, but I am telling you that if you ever present that idiot badge to a police officer....they are probably going to arrest you based not on fact but upon what the implied meaning of presenting that badge is.

The police officer isn't going to tell the judge that you held up a badge when he arrived. He is going to tell the judge that he arrived to find a man holding a gun on a man and said man then held up what looked like a police badge to impersonate a cop. The mere fact that the police officer believed you were impersonating a cop with that badge is enough to screw you over. I could hold up a badge that said Mickey Mouse on it but the act and the reasonable interpretation of what that badge's use is governs what happens to you. I think that not only is it the most stupid F'n idea I ever heard, it is bordering on somewhat pathetic.

But go ahead and try it out...best of luck with the idea. I understand and appreciate your intentions but I think that if you ever practice using that badge around a cop, some bad things will happen.

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[threegun]

You are displaying a fake badge that means nothing to the arriving LEO's, it is not accepted anywhere as legal ID, that is why you will have to provide your CCW as real proof that you have a CCW.

But Mike it does mean something to them. Why else would they say it would make them pause? My wallet has my CCP and the badge BTW. I am displaying my carry card to officers......along with the badge.

Newarcher, If you read you will see that the badge is already ready for responding LE. Only a brain dead idiot would go reaching about his person in a gun scenario. I would expect an officer to draw down on me if I was not responsible with my hands. I would expect to get shot if I wasn't responsible with my gun. Neither have anything to do with my badge.

 

[Capt. Charlie]

While not all of this applies to your situation, you might find this both interesting and helpful, Threegun. It's from a model policy on off duty actions by LEO's established by the Public Agency Training Council.

4. Most survival-conscious officers have trained themselves NOT to intervene off-duty UNLESS their life or the life of another innocent party is IMMINENTLY in danger. In other words, you should only consider intervention when deadly force would be justified. You should not intervene just to make an arrest while off-duty. The decision to take action, beyond simply reporting, is a personal one and is not a requirement of this department.

5. If you decide you must get involved, attempt to have someone call 911 advising the operator that an off-duty officer is on scene. Have the caller inform the operator if you are armed. If possible, have them describe you and your clothing. This will effect the mindset of the responding officers. When uniformed police officers arrive, have your badge out and visible. (if you carry your shield while off-duty, some officers carry only their photo credentials). Do not rely on showing your identification as a means of providing any protection. At a distance, in dim light and under stress, your badge may not be seen. Or, the identification may not be given credibility if the responding officers do not recognize you personally.

6. Some trainers advise officers to hold their badge next to their gun for the best chance of being seen because the eyes of the responding officers are most likely to go immediately to your drawn firearm. You're probably safer to RE-HOLSTER your gun when other officers arrive, unless doing so would put you and the responding officers or innocent civilians, in jeopardy. Until the responding officers sort out who is who, your gun is your greatest personal liability.

7. If you have cover, maintain it. You can communicate verbally from there.

8. Make your hands visible. Having responding officers see that you are unarmed and non-threatening will work to calm them and protect you.

9. Verbally identify yourself as a police officer-not once and not in a normal tone of voice, but repeatedly and very loud. Keep shouting out: "POLICE! DON'T SHOOT! OFF-DUTY OFFICER!" until you get acknowledgment and directions as to what you should do. Remember, the noise and excitement of the scene, combined with stress induced auditory blocking may prevent responding officers from hearing you initially.

10. When commands are issued by the responding officers, follow them promptly and completely. Expect to be treated like a suspect until your law enforcement status is verified.

The question of holstering or laying down your weapon is debatable, but remember that a gun laying on the ground might result in the BG going for it, cops present or not.

 

[njtrigger]

You forgot #12...

12. Finally, the most important rule of all: If you have a gun in your hand, NEVER, EVER turn toward an on-duty officer


I think the first few rules of not getting involved unless its a life-threatening situation is the next most important rule. Try to avoid involvement if possible and only get involved as a last and final resort.

 

[threegun]

Thank you Capt.

have your badge out and visible.

According to many on this thread a badge doesn't work yet police advise officers in plain clothes to have them out in advance. It seems my LE sources who told me that having the badge out and visible would help prevent an accidental shooting were correct........see David ITYS.

The rest are common sense rules for handling a gun scenario and must be followed.

 

[Covert Mission]

I considered the CCW badge many years ago as a good idea in theory, and after a discussion much like this thread I rejected the idea.

There are good thoughts here nonetheless. All the advice that applies to off-duty and plainclothes cops to avoid getting shot should apply to the good citizen CCW carrier.

Don't be a superhero. If you stop the threat--with or without shots--and the perp tries to leave, let them if you can't stop them without further endangering someone innocent.

I wouldn't even prefer to handcuff someone (I am a reserve deputy) who is a felon in action, without another officer backing me up in case they resist. Convicts practice reversal and disarm maneuvers, and the moment your gun is in the holster and you're putting that first cuff on, things can go south bigtime with a real badguy. Of course, sometimes you have to, but why do it unless mandatory?

It's a very dangerous time if they choose not to comply...then it's a game of chicken. Of course, if they continue or escalate the threat to the point where you're in mortal jeopardy during their non-compliance, all bets are off.

When the cops arrive, gun goes down or is holstered, and hands go up. Let them sort it out, and cooperate.

Now, I have to reload this into my mental database!

 

[Tim Burke]

There is a difference... the off duty police officer's badge means something, and he won't have to answer any questions about whether or not he was impersonating a police officer.
Meanwhile I note you ignored 2 key points of Capt Charlie's post, even though they were highlighted in red:

Do not rely on showing your identification as a means of providing any protection.

You're probably safer to RE-HOLSTER your gun when other officers arrive, unless doing so would put you and the responding officers or innocent civilians, in jeopardy. Until the responding officers sort out who is who, your gun is your greatest personal liability.

I also note that points 7 & 8 have been recommended in this thread.

 

[JohnKSa]

John, Come on dude I said several times that you must comply regardless.

I'm not talking about compliance.

"immediately putting down your gun" is not the same thing as "putting down your gun when you're told to".

 

[kozak6]

What does your "badge" look like?

30.46 Sheriffs; motor vehicles color combination; badges; simulation prohibited; penalties.--

(2) For purposes of uniformity and in aid of the recognition of their official identity by the public, a badge in the shape of a five-pointed star with a replica of the great seal of Florida with the map of Florida superimposed thereon inscribed in the center is designated as the official badge to be worn by the sheriffs and deputy sheriffs of all counties of the state.

(4) It shall be unlawful for any person other than sheriffs and deputy sheriffs to wear an official sheriff's badge as prescribed herein, or to wear a badge or insignia of such similarity to the official sheriff's badge as to be indistinguishable therefrom at a distance of 20 feet; provided, nothing therein shall be construed to prevent members of any military, fraternal, or similar organization or any other law enforcement officer from wearing any insignia officially adopted or worn prior to the effective date of this section.

Could this be a potential problem?

843.085 Unlawful use of police badges or other indicia of authority.--It is unlawful for any person:

(1) Unless appointed by the Governor pursuant to chapter 354, authorized by the appropriate agency, or displayed in a closed or mounted case as a collection or exhibit, to wear or display any authorized indicia of authority, including any badge, insignia, emblem, identification card, or uniform, or any colorable imitation thereof, of any federal, state, county, or municipal law enforcement agency, or other criminal justice agency as now or hereafter defined in s. 943.045, which could deceive a reasonable person into believing that such item is authorized by any of the agencies described above for use by the person displaying or wearing it, or which displays in any manner or combination the word or words "police," "patrolman," "agent," "sheriff," "deputy," "trooper," "highway patrol," "Wildlife Officer," "Marine Patrol Officer," "state attorney," "public defender," "marshal," "constable," or "bailiff," which could deceive a reasonable person into believing that such item is authorized by any of the agencies described above for use by the person displaying or wearing it.

How about now?

843.08 Falsely personating officer, etc.--A person who falsely assumes or pretends to be a sheriff, officer of the Florida Highway Patrol, officer of the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, officer of the Department of Environmental Protection, officer of the Department of Transportation, officer of the Department of Financial Services, officer of the Department of Corrections, correctional probation officer, deputy sheriff, state attorney or assistant state attorney, statewide prosecutor or assistant statewide prosecutor, state attorney investigator, coroner, police officer, lottery special agent or lottery investigator, beverage enforcement agent, or watchman, or any member of the Parole Commission and any administrative aide or supervisor employed by the commission, or any personnel or representative of the Department of Law Enforcement, and takes upon himself or herself to act as such, or to require any other person to aid or assist him or her in a matter pertaining to the duty of any such officer, commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084; however, a person who falsely personates any such officer during the course of the commission of a felony commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084; except that if the commission of the felony results in the death or personal injury of another human being, the person commits a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

I would imagine that holding a criminal at gunpoint could be considered acting as such.

I am not a lawyer, but looking at the law as a layman, it would seem to me that the law is stacked against you here.

 

[threegun]

The badge isn't official and looks nothing like an official badge. The fact that you feel defending yourself from an attack and holding the perp for police is doing police work makes you an impersonator as well should you have to defend yourself. For me and most folks defending yourself from a forcable felony is not police work.

John, The point is not to be stupid when officers arrive. If it is possible to put the gun away fine. If it is possible to put the gun down fine (lets not forget there is a criminal down there). The badge only gives arriving officers and witnessing ARMED CIVILIANS an idea of who is who.

Tim, I didn't ignore those. In earlier posts I said that you must comply with all orders from LE and not make any threatening movement towards LE. All of us agree on that point. I posted the fact that officers in plain clothes are trained to display their badge to try and convince many of you who say its stupid or won't work, that it will work and isn't stupid.

 

[newarcher]

One other thing that I haven't seen mentioned....

That perp that is pissed because you stopped him,....if his lawyer is smart.....is going to ruin your day by saying that you used that badge to impersonate an officer when "ARRESTING" his client--as a way of getting his client off.

Further evidence it is a bad idea.

You seem set on this trainwreck of an idea so best of luck with it.

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[David Armstrong]

David, Why do you continue to assume that I won't be following the nice policeman's orders? Why do you keep posting as if I plan on waving my gun around.

I make no assumptions. I do make the point that if you exactly what the nice policeman says the badge doesn’t matter. If you don’t, the badge doesn’t matter. That is the point, the only point--THE BADGE DOESN’T MATTER.

You seem to think that I believe the badge is going to allow me to act irresponsibly.

Quite the contrary, I believe that the badge does not matter, and thinking it does gives one a false sense of security.

Now I understand why your people keep coming up so opposite my people.

You seem to keep wanting to make this a “my people” discussion. Let’s keep it straight--it is more of a your people versus virtually everybody else. You can try to color that any way you want, but the overwhelming majority of folks that have expressed a viewpoint on this issue disagree with you.

You have this idea that A. I'm trying to play copper. B. You think I believe the badge is a "magic talisman" that will allow me to point my gun at cops and not follow instructions.

There you go making things up again. Nowhere have I said that either of those was my idea.

So your people, internet commando's for all I know, should trump Tampa Police officers and Hillsborough County Sheriffs Deputies? Are you serious? Why would you insult fellow officers like that?

Again, this is not a “my people” thing, no matter how hard you might want to make it so. The majority of folks here, and in other threads, have come down against your idea. As for an insult, I think that you are probably fudging things a bit, given the fact that your claims are contradicted by every other source. So perhaps it is you that is being insulting trying to make others believe that your local LE actually believe in this nonsense you are spouting.

If you walk up on the situation of a man holding a gun and a badge on another person and it doesn't give you an idea of who is the good guy in this scenario there really is no point in arguing further. Every single person I have asked said they would pause.

If I walk up on a situation I will pause anyway, badge or not, until I make some determinations. Having a badge doesn’t change that, not having it doesn’t change it.

Its obvious you just want to argue, something you have a history of doing.

LOL!! Pot, meet kettle! Virtually everyone here has told you that you are wrong. Other threads disagree with you. The only support you seem to be getting is from an unverified source that you claim. Yet you keep trying to convince us all what a good idea it is. Now, who just wants to argue??

You have made assumptions despite me explaining otherwise.

No, I have avoided making assumptions, something you might want to try. You have made a statement: “In the event that I shoot someone or am holding someone at gunpoint I will hold this badge (in a black wallet style holder) high above my head. The mere sight of this badge will cause police,ccw's and other good guys to pause before shooting.” I have suggested the statement is somewhat problematic and explained why. Others have also pointed out that the concept is faulty. No assumptions needed.

Eltorrente capped it off pretty good when he posts, “There's no reason to continue holding your weapon at someone once they get there! You act like you NEED to keep standing there for as long as possible with your gun out... it just doesn't make any sense.” It just doesn’t make any sense. That is it in a nutshell, IMO.

You start off with the idea that you are going to want to hold somebody at gunpoint until the police arrive. Bad idea. Then you assume that having the badge will somehow change the way people react to what you are doing. Bad idea. Then you claim that your intent is to make people think you are a LEO so they will pause before shooting at you. Again, bad idea. And that is not me or “my people”, it is most folks that have commented. You go ahead and do whatever you want, but please don’t try to convince others it is a good idea.

 

[David Armstrong]

According to many on this thread a badge doesn't work yet police advise officers in plain clothes to have them out in advance. It seems my LE sources who told me that having the badge out and visible would help prevent an accidental shooting were correct........see David ITYS.

It seems you failed to notice the most important part of that, and instead keyed only on the one small segment that taken out of context seems to support your position. Let’s check it out a bit more in depth:

>>If you decide you must get involved, attempt to have someone call 911 advising the operator that an off-duty officer is on scene. Have the caller inform the operator if you are armed. If possible, have them describe you and your clothing.<<
Note the advice is to give LE information regarding clothing, personal description, etc. It is this that “....will effect the mindset of the responding officers.”

>>(if you carry your shield while off-duty, some officers carry only their photo credentials). <<
Note again that the badge is of so little importance that some officers don’t even carry it around with them off-duty. In fact, some agencies are even recommending you only carry your creds and not carry the badge at all as an officer-safety issue.

>>Do not rely on showing your identification as a means of providing any protection.<<
And that is exactly what I’ve been saying. Assuming the badge matters gives one a false sense of security.

 

[jrkarp]

Displaying your permit and CWP badge is not representing yourself as an officer. You are simply holding up your ID for responding LE. The fact that they and others will pause because they believe you could possibly be an officer isn't a crime. Unless you say I'm a cop or otherwise do LE duties there is no crime.

I disagree.

Flashing a badge while holding a person at gunpoint is clearly intended to give the impression that you are LE. A reasonable person, under those circumstances, would be led to believe that you are a cop. A reasonable police officer, under those circumstances, would be led to believe that you are a cop.

I'm not LE, but I am a lawyer.

Also, should one need to shoot someone, the fact that you are carrying a CCW badge will be used against you in the inevitable civil suit that will follow. The plaintiff's attorney will try to paint you as a "cop wannabe" who is out looking for trouble. The jury (most of whom are probably not gun owners and don't CCW), will look at you, the guy with the gun who shot the plaintiff, and look at your pretend badge, and agree with him.

ETA: My idea of how not to get shot by the good guys is to, upon arrival of the police, place the gun on the ground, step back, place your hands on your head, and await further instructions. The LE will have their weapons drawn and the bad guy will be covered.

 

[threegun]

David, You claim not to assume. You claim to take what I said only. Yet you assume that I haven't called police with a description and explaination of the circumstances. You assume that I intend to keep my gun out even if the situation allows it to be put away. You assume that I might point my gun a police or otherwise improperly handle it.

I never said I wouldn't do those things and later added that I would.

You keep saying as fact that LE wouldn't shoot without provokation by the person with the gun. I don't completely agree with this. I believe there are a few bad apples that might act prematurly. Someone might think that the badguy is about to become a victim. What you fail to even consider are the thousands of armed civilians with little or no training and the thousands of armed guards many of which have failed police interviews for mental reasons.

Well you assume that proper gun handling alone will keep you safe from everyone. I will use my badge and safe gun handling just to make sure. Everybody is happy.

Let me ask you though David. If you found yourself compelled to hold the bad guy at gun point (perhaps after having shot them) and there were civilians around you what would you do? How would you prevent the CCP holder from assuming that you are the badguy?

 

[eltorrente]

Threegun, give it up.

NOONE agrees with you, and we all think it's a ridiculous idea to flash your little badge. You've got Dirty Harry delusions about taking down and holding criminals. You're just a guy with a gun and a silly badge, looking for reasons to use them.

Let the cops hold the criminals, and just call 911 when you see a badguy. Pull your gun and shoot him if he's trying to shoot you or your family. No need to mull over scenarios where you go around apprehending felons. Most people with those thoughts end up being.. you guessed it: COPS!

 

[threegun]

JrKarp,
Every officer that I have shown it to disagree. Two family members (HCSO) who love me and would never want me to get in trouble told me that as long as I wasn't playing cop, saying I was a cop, or using official cop badges I was fine.

Since I will only shoot your client if he is trying to commit a forcable felony on me and would never actively play hero (unless my family was in danger) I could never be convicted of playing cop.

What would a man holding a badge and gun on another man make you think? Please don't make assumptions just imagine turning the corner and seeing a man holding a gun and badge on another man. What does it say to you?

 

[eltorrente]

What would a man holding a badge and gun on another man make you think? Please don't make assumptions just imagine turning the corner and seeing a man holding a gun and badge on another man. What does it say to you?

That would tell me that he is pretending to be a cop, which is illegal! The impression you are trying to make to anyone that sees you is that you are a cop and have everything under control.

Whether you have a badge or not doesn't matter much to the passerby. If you are holding your gun to some guy and keeping him "under control", then anyone would assume that the guy on the ground was a badguy and would call the cops (the REAL cops).

Heck, if he was flashing a badge, I would assume he was a cop and would probably leave the area - because a real cop of course would have the rest of his cop buddies on the way and I wouldn't try to assist him by calling. Hopefully you can juggle your phone, your fake badge, and your gun all at the same time.

 

[threegun]

Eltorrente, Do you know me? I just can't wait for you to post just how you "know" that I have dirty harry whatever.

I don't want to get shot by friendlies......comprende? Said such several times. Why can't you understand that? You think the idea stinks good for you. You think its not needed great. You think its illegal awesome. DON'T USE ONE. Really quite simple. Just grow up and cut out the insults.

Some of you think it isn't needed. I disagree. Some of you think it will work but get me arrested. I disagree.

Police are told to display their badge for a reason. I believe that reason is to help folks identify them as a friendly which will help prevent being shot by friendlies.

 

[eltorrente]

Police are told to display their badge for a reason. I believe that reason is to help folks identify them as a friendly which will help prevent being shot by friendlies.

The reason is to help folks identify them as COPS! You know, REAL cops. It's ILLEGAL to pretend to be a cop. A ccw badge doesn't prove you are friendly, or a non-criminal, it only implies to those you flash it at that you are a cop.