Home Defense Gun: Shotgun vs Lever Action Rifle

[natman]

I was talking about the suppressor, not the ear phones

I misunderstood. But the earmuffs will work much better than a suppressor anyway and cost far less.

I've used a set of Peltor 6s for years turkey hunting and they turn the BOOM of my 20" vented turkey shotgun barrel into a faraway boom.

 

[MarineVaquero]

I misunderstood. But the earmuffs will work much better than a suppressor anyway and cost far less.

I've used a set of Peltor 6s for years turkey hunting and they turn the BOOM of my 20" vented turkey shotgun barrel into a faraway boom.

Thanks, I ordered a couple sets for me and my son to go shooting. Seems like a good idea for HD as well since they also amplify ambient sound.

 

[MarineVaquero]

NAA for in home social work...not if I had better and he does.

I recently watched a YouTube video of this same little guy exploding a watermelon. I'm now convinced that the 22wmr (not to be confused with 22lr) is a wicked little round, too often dismissed and discredited due to its size but after seeing the damage it can do I sure wouldn't want to be on the receiving end. Mind you this was coming from a revolver, imagine coming from a rifIe. I think a lever carbine for this cartridge could make a deadly team with the NAA and a good alternative to the 30-30 but I will be hard pressed finding one the price of a Maverick. Still keeping my eye out for both.

 

[SHR970]

I recently watched a YouTube video of this same little guy exploding a watermelon.

Go to NAA's ballistics tables Linkarooni and look up the numbers for your mini and barrel length. Out of the sub 2" barrels the 22 Mag. makes LOTS of noise and does nothing more that a 22LR does out of about a 4" barrel. 40 gr. MaxiMag out of a 1 5/8" Magnum vs. 40 gr. MiniMag out of a MiniMaster 4" are almost dead on equal. Now out of a rifle that's a whole different story but I am sticking to what you have and have expressed interest in (Mav. 88).

If the NAA is what's at hand when you need it by all means use it. If I had another choice I would opt for that other choice.

 

[SHR970]

Marine: One point I have to make should you elect to get the Maverick 88. By all means buy a few boxes of your chosen Buck Shot and pattern it @ realistic in your apartment distances. Odds are that 10 yards is a long shot for your situation. KNOW what to expect for spread. Assuming that you chose standard 9 pellet 00Buck @ 1330 fps, buy several boxes of 2 3/4" 1 1/4 ounce 3 3/4 dram birdshot (cost effectiveness) and practice running the gun to get used to pumping the action without taking the stock off of your shoulder and also to get used to the recoil from those loads. Those bird shot loads are equivelent in weight, velocity, and kick of the buckshot. You'll also find that they will pattern close enough for effective close in practise.

 

[MarineVaquero]

Go to NAA's ballistics tables Linkarooni and look up the numbers for your mini and barrel length. Out of the sub 2" barrels the 22 Mag. makes LOTS of noise and does nothing more that a 22LR does out of about a 4" barrel. 40 gr. MaxiMag out of a 1 5/8" Magnum vs. 40 gr. MiniMag out of a MiniMaster 4" are almost dead on equal. Now out of a rifle that's a whole different story but I am sticking to what you have and have expressed interest in (Mav. 88).

If the NAA is what's at hand when you need it by all means use it. If I had another choice I would opt for that other choice.

I picked up some of this ammo in 40 grain. https://youtu.be/alos8NMWZug
NAA doesn't list it on their ballistics table but as seen in the video I imagine the effects couldn't be too much different coming from an NAA 1 1/8 inch barrel at typical defense ranges. Bring a rifle loaded with this ammo into the fight and if I'm a smart bad guy I'm getting out of Dodge.

 

[SHR970]

The effects are going to be substantially different. Read the tables for what they are and draw you own conclusions. 22 LR and Mag ammo is made for rifle length barrels. When you get to the super short barrels the velocity change rules of thumb go out the window. That's why a comperable 22 Mag out of the 1 5/8" barrel has effectively the same MV as a 22 LR out of a 4" barrel. Compare and contrast the MV of 22 Mags. out of the 1 1/8" barrel Mini to the 4" MiniMaster brand & type for brand & type. You should see what I am trying to explain to you.

 

[MarineVaquero]

The effects are going to be substantially different. Read the tables for what they are and draw you own conclusions. 22 LR and Mag ammo is made for rifle length barrels. When you get to the super short barrels the velocity change rules of thumb go out the window. That's why a comperable 22 Mag out of the 1 5/8" barrel has effectively the same MV as a 22 LR out of a 4" barrel. Compare and contrast the MV of 22 Mags. out of the 1 1/8" barrel Mini to the 4" MiniMaster brand & type for brand & type. You should see what I am trying to explain to you.

Now you got me thinking of trading it for a longer barrel, lol. I just love how concealable this little guy is though. I guess my point is that if it's what I happen to have on me at the time I don't necessarily feel under gunned and definitely think this round out of a rifle would be a nasty surprise to any unsuspecting bad guy.

 

[SHR970]

I would think that a 44 Special 200 Gr Silver Tip @ 900 fps in house out of your 44 Mag would be better suited to your situation. Comperable ME. but bigger hole, batter S.D., much more wieldy, one free hand, AND less chance of barrel being grappled and deflected. You asked the question and now you are trying to justify a contrary response. If you want to buy a 22 Mag rifle just do it. Based on your original post either buy the ammo that your 44 will take and balance out the factors OR buy the Mav. 88, ammo, and learn how to use it.

The accuracy of your mini is not predicated upon the gun but rather how you use it. It is a close contact weapon. At in house distances you might get two or at best three shots off. Your accuracy is going to be seriously lacking. The BG isn't likely to just suck it up and lie down; but feel free to bet your families life on that. On hand 22 vs. 44 I'll take the 44 with the WRONG ammo every time if it comes to me and mine. Your 22 might get laughed at, they will understand the 44 when they are staring at it. A psychological stop with no blood drawn is better than having to pay for a lawyer.

 

[MarineVaquero]

I would think that a 44 Special 200 Gr Silver Tip @ 900 fps in house out of your 44 Mag would be better suited to your situation. Comperable ME. but bigger hole, batter S.D., much more wieldy, one free hand, AND less chance of barrel being grappled and deflected. You asked the question and now you are trying to justify a contrary response. If you want to buy a 22 Mag rifle just do it. Based on your original post either buy the ammo that your 44 will take and balance out the factors OR buy the Mav. 88, ammo, and learn how to use it.

The accuracy of your mini is not predicated upon the gun but rather how you use it. It is a close contact weapon. At in house distances you might get two or at best three shots off. Your accuracy is going to be seriously lacking. The BG isn't likely to just suck it up and lie down; but feel free to bet your families life on that. On hand 22 vs. 44 I'll take the 44 with the WRONG ammo every time if it comes to me and mine. Your 22 might get laughed at, they will understand the 44 when they are staring at it. A psychological stop with no blood drawn is better than having to pay for a lawyer.

I never stated that I would choose the 22 over the 44, only that if the 22 was the most accessible thing at the time I wouldn't feel bad based on what I've seen it do. I know it wouldn't perform the same out of a short barrel revolver but it will still put a hurtin on anyone and might just be enough to change their mind. At the very least it could buy me some time to bring the big boys out to play. Also, I know I already stated that I will not be clearing rooms but since you bring up barrels being grabbed, why do police and the military routinely practice clearing rooms with long guns even though many are also packing a sidearm? I was in the Marine Corps by the way so I've received such training and if there is one thing that was beaten to death it was hanging onto your rifle no matter what. The rifle can be as good of a defensive tool in close quarters as any. (butt stroke comes to mind) Also since you mentioned one hand I don't know when the last time was you've held a Winchester 94 in your hands but it is probably the most lightweight rifle ever and I have no problem whatsoever doing things with one hand while holding it. In fact, the lightweight is one of its claims to fame among many others.

 

[MarineVaquero]

It's also been said that the sound of a shotgun racking is a good pschological deterrent, I would venture to say that a lever gun chambering a round should have the same effect.

 

[natman]

Thanks, I ordered a couple sets for me and my son to go shooting. Seems like a good idea for HD as well since they also amplify ambient sound.

I've found that if you turn the volume up enough to amplify the sound, it makes it harder to place where the sound is coming from. I usually adjust the volume so that the level is the same with the earmuffs on or off. That way you can judge distance and direction accurately.

 

[GreatGutling]

Everyone who is trying to decide on a specific firearm for defense needs to consider three things.

1. Having it readily available is better than locked in a safe.
2. Regular practice is imperative.
3. The environment of most probable use must be weighed against the 4 Laws of Gun Safety.
.

Better "having it" readily you think?
My son (3 y.o.) recently was "playing" with my Viking safe. you know the ones like these with biometric fingerprints. The wife got mad as hell.
You never know what can go wrong, so the gun under the pillow is a no for me

 

[SHR970]

Also, I know I already stated that I will not be clearing rooms but since you bring up barrels being grabbed, why do police and the military routinely practice clearing rooms with long guns even though many are also packing a sidearm?

Long guns have more power, more accurate when properly deployed, AND it is safer to do when you go in as part of a 4 man team. If bad guy grabs gun of lead, one of the other 3 will dispatch bad guy. Most people don't have a clue as to the proper techniques involved in operating in tight spaces with a long gun. Since you said you got that training in the Corps. you trained as part of a team and were trained to not go it alone.

Also since you mentioned one hand I don't know when the last time was you've held a Winchester 94 in your hands but it is probably the most lightweight rifle ever and I have no problem whatsoever doing things with one hand while holding it. In fact, the lightweight is one of its claims to fame among many others.

Been a few years and I have filled my parents freezer many times over with my step father's 32 Special. Light weight also is the reason the 94 kicks as hard as it does. It's the same reason people are surprised at the kick on my Marlin 94 in 44 Mag. I would love to see someone actually hit something at any distance one handing a 94. Not that it can't be done (mostly luck) but the ergos aren't designed for that and most people don't have the wrist strength to deal with that forward weight with one hand for much more than a few seconds.

 

[Aikibiker]

Anyone of the listed calibers will easily penetrate multiple walls and still be lethal. The one that will penetrate least isa shotgun loaded with a heavy bird shot, but I would not rely on that to incapacitate a determined (or intoxicated) attacker. Next best would be a 5.56mm rifle (I like the AR series, but there are plenty of different types in that caliber out there) with a light varmint type expanding round.

Of the four weapons listed for the purpose of incapacitating an attacker while having the LEAST over penetration (there is no way to have no over penetration) of drywall in the event of a miss, I would dismiss the two pistols unless OP has a situation where both hands need to be free (similar to mine with small children that may need to be controlled live in the house) both will probably have the most penetration due to bullet construction and speed of projectiles. Basically handgun rounds will not move fast enough to fragment in drywall and are heavy enough (especially the .44) to retain velocity and just keep penetrating. The 30-30 suffers from the same problem, unlikely to fragment and going fast enough to just keep on punching through walls until it hits something solid. Shotguns with their wide ammo choice are going to be the best solution if the OP does not want to get into a 5.56mm rifle. Paul Harrell has several great videos about shotgun penetration through drywall using various loads on youtube. Here are a few:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaR1EVybUgc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0kLVBDThog

 

[MarineVaquero]

Anyone of the listed calibers will easily penetrate multiple walls and still be lethal. The one that will penetrate least isa shotgun loaded with a heavy bird shot, but I would not rely on that to incapacitate a determined (or intoxicated) attacker. Next best would be a 5.56mm rifle (I like the AR series, but there are plenty of different types in that caliber out there) with a light varmint type expanding round.

Of the four weapons listed for the purpose of incapacitating an attacker while having the LEAST over penetration (there is no way to have no over penetration) of drywall in the event of a miss, I would dismiss the two pistols unless OP has a situation where both hands need to be free (similar to mine with small children that may need to be controlled live in the house) both will probably have the most penetration due to bullet construction and speed of projectiles. Basically handgun rounds will not move fast enough to fragment in drywall and are heavy enough (especially the .44) to retain velocity and just keep penetrating. The 30-30 suffers from the same problem, unlikely to fragment and going fast enough to just keep on punching through walls until it hits something solid. Shotguns with their wide ammo choice are going to be the best solution if the OP does not want to get into a 5.56mm rifle. Paul Harrell has several great videos about shotgun penetration through drywall using various loads on youtube. Here are a few:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaR1EVybUgc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0kLVBDThog

What about the 44 loaded with these rounds from Glaser?
https://shopcorbon.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=119

 

[Aikibiker]

The Glaser rounds are largely gimmicks from all I have heard. I have never shot any, but there are videos on youtube of it going through multiple drywall panels as well as very little penetration of ballistic gel, not getting anywhere near the FBI recommended minimum. This is fairly representative, though a very poor presentation. A scant four inches of penetration into pork shoulder and when shot into clear gel (which normally allows MORE penetration then the opaque varieties) it got what looked like 6 inches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFxG6Hpy3A4

Also way to expensive to shoot a hundred or so to find out how they perform out of your revolver. Wouldn't be good to to find out that they recoil enough to unseat and jam your cylinder or have such a wildly different point of aim that they do not match at all with your sights in the middle of a home invasion after all.

 

[MarineVaquero]

Next best would be a 5.56mm rifle (I like the AR series, but there are plenty of different types in that caliber out there) with a light varmint type expanding round

The .22wmr is a varmint cartridge originally designed for rifles with a variety of frangible and expanding ammo. The ammo I got for my NAA is expanding as you'll see in the video link I posted but I fail to see how a larger round such as a .223/5.56 out of a rifle would penetrate any less should I manage to acquire a rifle for the .22 wmr.

 

[Aikibiker]

It isn't the round, but the firearm shooting it. The short barrels on the NAA mini-revolvers are just not long enough to get the .22 WMR up to sufficient speed to fragment or expand in most cases. If you were launching those same rounds out of a rifle or longer barreled pistol, 5-8 inches, they would do just fine.

So while 22 WMR is a fine round, it really shines from a rifle, and because of it's design (very long straight case) works best in a manually operated firearm such as a bolt or lever action rifle, rather then a semi automatic. (side note: my wife has a semiauto Keltec CMR-30 that is reliable if you are careful loading the magazines and lube the heck out of the rifle, that would probably work well in a home defense role with varmint rounds.)

The NAA's in 22 WMR are neat little guns, but are made as a back up or very deep concealment CCW piece. The intended way to use them is from very close range, possibly while wrestling with the scumbag, with all rounds fired going into the bad guy, they will not have enough energy to exit. The exotic rounds will not expand or fragment, but they will still do a lot of damage in that situation and will not exit the bad guy.

Trying to use one for home defense at greater distances (read outside arms length) will yield .22 LR velocities and similar penetration through drywall and into neighbors.

 

[MarineVaquero]

It isn't the round, but the firearm shooting it. The short barrels on the NAA mini-revolvers are just not long enough to get the .22 WMR up to sufficient speed to fragment or expand in most cases. If you were launching those same rounds out of a rifle or longer barreled pistol, 5-8 inches, they would do just fine.

So while 22 WMR is a fine round, it really shines from a rifle, and because of it's design (very long straight case) works best in a manually operated firearm such as a bolt or lever action rifle, rather then a semi automatic. (side note: my wife has a semiauto Keltec CMR-30 that is reliable if you are careful loading the magazines and lube the heck out of the rifle, that would probably work well in a home defense role with varmint rounds.)

The NAA's in 22 WMR are neat little guns, but are made as a back up or very deep concealment CCW piece. The intended way to use them is from very close range, possibly while wrestling with the scumbag, with all rounds fired going into the bad guy, they will not have enough energy to exit. The exotic rounds will not expand or fragment, but they will still do a lot of damage in that situation and will not exit the bad guy.

Trying to use one for home defense at greater distances (read outside arms length) will yield .22 LR velocities and similar penetration through drywall and into neighbors.

I was merely comparing the two rounds out of rifles since I'd rather buy a rifle in a caliber I already own if not a shotgun.