Home Defense Gun: Shotgun vs Lever Action Rifle

[MarineVaquero]

I'm also surprised that a few of you are suggesting 22lr or 22 short while dismissing the 22 mag I suggested when 22 mag certainly has more stopping power than the other two. Especially considering it would be coming from a rifle, which has ballistics comparible to the 9mm round that others suggested.

 

[dyl]

I'm also surprised that a few of you are suggesting 22lr or 22 short while dismissing the 22 mag I suggested

Are you thinking of this one by jetinteriorguy?

I’d go with a high cap .22rf double action revolver and load it with solid point CCI MiniMags.

- what stands out to me in his suggestion is the high capacity and double action. Ruger LCR has an 8 shot 22LR, which can hold so many because the cylinder walls and distance between charging holes can be so thin/small given a low pressure round. Double Action is a very strong point to consider compared to any rifle unless the one you suggested is a semi-auto, for speed of follow up shots.

But if it came down to purchasing a new firearm geared towards home defense, I don't think many would suggest reaching for a rimfire or 22 mag as a first choice. By your post it seems like low price of the Sears/Winchester was a strong factor, not necessarily terminal performance.

I don't think 22 mag has the same performance as 9mm. Smaller diameter even if penetration in calibrated gelatin tests would be the same. Otherwise, the police departments and military should start saving money and buying 22 mag then. Well it's possible...

One thing important to remember is that you cannot assume you will have all the time a given scenario requires. You may not be woken up by a pounding at the door. In fact you may be woken up by being struck /stabbed first while sleeping. I would place dealing with an extremely close quarters emergency as first priority. As in the perpetrator is already in your room, already upon you. So I suggest something easy to access/secure, easy to wield, and can produce a high rate of fire from point shooting or contact distance, one handed. If the situation is more favorable (or less unfavorable), and you find you have the luxury of a threat that is still down the hallway or at the door, then great. But I suspect practice with 44 specials will get you more accuracy than you could ever want across an apartment hallway.

So of your choices, my vote is 44 special from the revolver.

 

[MarineVaquero]

Are you thinking of this one by jetinteriorguy?

- what stands out to me in his suggestion is the high capacity and double action. Ruger LCR has an 8 shot 22LR, which can hold so many because the cylinder walls and distance between charging holes can be so thin/small given a low pressure round. Double Action is a very strong point to consider compared to any rifle unless the one you suggested is a semi-auto, for speed of follow up shots.

But if it came down to purchasing a new firearm geared towards home defense, I don't think many would suggest reaching for a rimfire or 22 mag as a first choice. By your post it seems like low price of the Sears/Winchester was a strong factor, not necessarily terminal performance.

I don't think 22 mag has the same performance as 9mm. Smaller diameter even if penetration in calibrated gelatin tests would be the same. Otherwise, the police departments and military should start saving money and buying 22 mag then. Well it's possible...

One thing important to remember is that you cannot assume you will have all the time a given scenario requires. You may not be woken up by a pounding at the door. In fact you may be woken up by being struck /stabbed first while sleeping. I would place dealing with an extremely close quarters emergency as first priority. As in the perpetrator is already in your room, already upon you. So I suggest something easy to access/secure, easy to wield, and can produce a high rate of fire from point shooting or contact distance, one handed. If the situation is more favorable (or less unfavorable), and you find you have the luxury of a threat that is still down the hallway or at the door, then great. But I suspect practice with 44 specials will get you more accuracy than you could ever want across an apartment hallway.

So of your choices, my vote is 44 special from the revolver.

1. The rifle I suggested is a 10+1 capacity which is more than the revolver. 2. A lever cycled from the shoulder can be almost as fast as a semi in the hands of a practiced shooter and lever guns like revolvers are less prone to malfunction. 3. True, the 22 mag from a pistol is not the same as a 9mm from a pistol but a 22 mag from a rifle is in fact ballistically similar to a 9mm from a pistol. The reason police departments don't use them is because if you transition from pistol to rifle it's generally assumed you need the extra fire power. Not really the case in my situation.

 

[jfruser]

MV:

Before I built my wife her "hers" Rem 870 12ga HD shotgun, her HD long gun was a Rossi clone of the Winchester 92 in .44mag loaded with my mild (240gr@1000fps) hand load. Still have it, it is still viable, as is any lever gun chambered in .38spl on up. I prefer the Win92 clone over the Marlin 94, but if the Marlin 94 is what is available, no worries.

Scorch has a point, though exaggerated, regarding muzzle blast. It is rough indoors. Fall-on-the-ground is baloney, but hearing loss, tinnitus, and short term pain are real risks. BTDT. That, plus my other family members don't eat recoil as well as I, is why I cleave toward lower-pressure rounds for my loaded HD firearms. 12ga, .45ACP, .38spl std & +P. and a heavy .44spl/mild .44mag in the past.

SAMMI guidelines:
http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm
http://randywakeman.com/shotgun_pressures.htm
12ga 11,500
.38spl 17,000
.38spl+P 18,500
.45ACP 21,000
.44spl 15,500
.30-30 42,000
.44mag 35,000
5.56 55,000
9x19 35,000

Longer barrels help mitigate against subjective muzzle blast, too.
https://www.farmshow.com/view_articles.php?a_id=445

 

[2damnold4this]

I think all home defense long guns would benefit from having a bright white light mounted to them. Of the choice between a Winchester in 30-30 and a Mossberg pump 12 gauge, I'd go with the shotgun.

 

[FireForged]

Fall-on-the-ground is baloney

That sort of sound pressure in a confined space can do all sorts of things. Some permanent some temporary. The idea that someone may discharge a high power round in a confined space like a hallway, bathroom or similar and experience temporary debilitating vertigo is very much possible. I have seen at least 2 occasions where a person could not stand or walk for about 10 minutes after discharging a big bore handgun in a similar type of enclosed space.

Will it happen every time..nope. Does it happen often?.. maybe not. Can it happen?.. yes.

To what degree it happens or how long this sort of thing lasts can vary widely from person to person and circumstance to circumstance.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

My thinking with .22 LR vs .22 mag is feeling the difference in performance in a revolver is not worth the increased muzzle blast and muzzle flash indoors. Plus it’s cheap to practice with and with regular practice it wouldn’t be too hard to make half your shots head shots, and the solid point bullets should penetrate sufficiently to do the job. As far as penetrating walls, I’m only guessing but going through two layers of drywall and the insulation might either stop a round or render it less than lethal. I can’t personally vouch for any of this but it’s just my supposition.

 

[MarineVaquero]

My thinking with .22 LR vs .22 mag is feeling the difference in performance in a revolver is not worth the increased muzzle blast and muzzle flash indoors. Plus it’s cheap to practice with and with regular practice it wouldn’t be too hard to make half your shots head shots, and the solid point bullets should penetrate sufficiently to do the job. As far as penetrating walls, I’m only guessing but going through two layers of drywall and the insulation might either stop a round or render it less than lethal. I can’t personally vouch for any of this but it’s just my supposition.

Problem is I already own a revolver in 22 mag so buying a rifle in the same caliber would be more cost efficient ammowise vs buying another gun in a different caliber. As far as the muzzle blast, I don't see how that would be in issue when people here suggest 9mm which carries more power than the 22 wmr through a handgun but is almost exactly on par when the 22 wmr is fired through a rifle.

 

[MarineVaquero]

That sort of sound pressure in a confined space can do all sorts of things. Some permanent some temporary. The idea that someone may discharge a high power round in a confined space like a hallway, bathroom or similar and experience temporary debilitating vertigo is very much possible. I have seen at least 2 occasions where a person could not stand or walk for about 10 minutes after discharging a big bore handgun in a similar type of enclosed space.

Will it happen every time..nope. Does it happen often?.. maybe not. Can it happen?.. yes.

To what degree it happens or how long this sort of thing lasts can vary widely from person to person and circumstance to circumstance.

I would imagine that the decibel level from such a rifle couldn't be much more than the shotgun blast that many more are recommending over the rifle and the shotgun is already known as a popular home defense gun. I would also argue that the old 30-30 Winchester 94 along with its brother the Marlin 336 in 30-30 have probably protected more homes in their lifetime for at least as long if not longer than the shotgun. With that being said, I think the real question comes down to, can I hit what the hell I'm shooting at and am I prepared for the after effects? With enough practice and preparation I would think one could confidentiality say yes.

 

[FireForged]

I would imagine that the decibel level from such a rifle couldn't be much more than the shotgun blast that many more are recommending over the rifle and the shotgun is already known as a popular home defense gun.

sure.. most common rifles and 12ga shotguns are rather close in db rating. I never suggested otherwise. I merely stated that sound pressure can cause temporary debilitation effects on a person in certain circumstances. I said this in response to someone who seemed to scoff at the idea.

I would also argue that the old 30-30 Winchester 94 along with its brother the Marlin 336 in 30-30 have probably protected more homes in their lifetime for at least as long if not longer than the shotgun.

Ok.. lets say that they have. How does that negate anything that I said?

I think the real question comes down to, can I hit what the hell I'm shooting at and am I prepared for the after effects? With enough practice and preparation I would think one could confidentiality say yes.

I don't think that proclamation has anything to do with nor does it challenge anything that I said. Nobody said you cant defend your home with a rifle. I simply suggested that if you are defending alone and things get up close and personal, retaining a handgun, moving with a handgun and fighting handgun tactics in general have much less baggage when compared to a long gun. If it doesn't matter to you, fine. I am simply offering thoughtful content for those who might think that it does matter.

I wont even address the whole 22/22mag for home defense, that is a thread all to it self.

 

[Jack O'Conner]

Remington builds a variety of ammo for your 30-30. One is named The Accelerator which featured a 22 caliber bullet fitted into a plastic sabot. Muzzle velocity is about 3,000 fps which would down a bad guy with ease but this light bullet does not have the over penetration concerns.

Jack

 

[MarkCO]

I would imagine that the decibel level from such a rifle couldn't be much more than the shotgun blast that many more are recommending over the rifle and the shotgun is already known as a popular home defense gun.

In an enclosed space, the comparative hearing damage from a shotgun or pistol as compared to a high pressure rifle round is significant. None are good. Even with muffs on, one can feel the difference in the pressure effects easily in a room. Outside, the difference is not significant.

 

[FireForged]

In an enclosed space, the comparative hearing damage from a shotgun or pistol as compared to a high pressure rifle round is significant. None are good. Even with muffs on, one can feel the difference in the pressure effects easily in a room. Outside, the difference is not significant.

Slow down Bro.. this sort of logic does not seem very popular in this thread

 

[natman]

A 30-30, or just about any centerfire rifle, will have way too much penetration for use in an apartment.

Go shotgun.

 

[natman]

Remington builds a variety of ammo for your 30-30. One is named The Accelerator which featured a 22 caliber bullet fitted into a plastic sabot. Muzzle velocity is about 3,000 fps which would down a bad guy with ease but this light bullet does not have the over penetration concerns.

Jack

I remember the Accelerator rounds for 30-30, in fact I think I have a couple of boxes around somewhere, but I don't think Remington has made any for quite some time.

 

[MarineVaquero]

Remington builds a variety of ammo for your 30-30. One is named The Accelerator which featured a 22 caliber bullet fitted into a plastic sabot. Muzzle velocity is about 3,000 fps which would down a bad guy with ease but this light bullet does not have the over penetration concerns.

Jack

Thanks for this, I heard about this round before from another forum and found some for sale online but held off ordering till I found out more about them. I still see them advertised so I think they are still produced but are all sold out for obvious reasons. I think this may be my answer.
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/.30...00-fps-20-rounds-per-box/FC-047700054308.html

 

[SHR970]

Back in the 90'a a writer for a popular gun rag did a penetration test using amonst other tings a 9mm with 115 gr HP ammo. He made nice squares with 2x4's and standard 1/2" sheet rock. The 9mm penetrated 12 layers of sheet rock. You 30-30 can go through a lot more than that. Heck, your 30-30 will go through a bad guy AND the next two walls. You can find a gel test on line where the 150 gr. Core Lokt went 28" into the blocks @ 100 YARDS. Gel Test Video I suggest you use something else like your 44 loaded with specials.

 

[MarineVaquero]

Back in the 90'a a writer for a popular gun rag did a penetration test using amonst other tings a 9mm with 115 gr HP ammo. He made nice squares with 2x4's and standard 1/2" sheet rock. The 9mm penetrated 12 layers of sheet rock. You 30-30 can go through a lot more than that. Heck, your 30-30 will go through a bad guy AND the next two walls. You can find a gel test on line where the 150 gr. Core Lokt went 28" into the blocks @ 100 YARDS. Gel Test Video I suggest you use something else like your 44 loaded with specials.

There are special game loads that don't exit deer. If you're smart and choose the right ammo it shouldn't go too far through the bad guy provided you hit him which you increase your odds of doing so with a rifle.

 

[natman]

Thanks for this, I heard about this round before from another forum and found some for sale online but held off ordering till I found out more about them. I still see them advertised so I think they are still produced but are all sold out for obvious reasons. I think this may be my answer.
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/.30...00-fps-20-rounds-per-box/FC-047700054308.html

You may be waiting a while. The Accelerator load isn't listed in the 2020 Remington catalog. I also looked in the 2014 catalog and it's not offered there either.

I'm pretty sure it has been discontinued.

 

[Aikibiker]

Karl from Tactical Rifleman, a former Green Beret with lots of experience using ammo on humans prefers a 5.56mm rifle with light (~45 gr) expanding "varmint" rounds for home defense and breaks down the difference between home defense and battle field use. Because it works well enough on people and does not go through AS MANY walls as most other ammo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5KzAA7JME4