We have at least 4 folks that regularly carry in church in Idaho, possibly more. One is a retired LAPD, his son does some sort of security detail in Iraq, I suspect he is armed as well. One is an 8th degree black belt with some serious credentials and he likewise carries, not sure why really when it comes down to what is more lethal, him or his .380 that he carries. I suspect he is. There are a couple of other folks I know about as well and we are actually quite a small church. It is just a way of life up there that many folks are just armed during their daily life. Going to church is just one more place that we continue that habit. Fortunately, in Idaho, it is just a normal part of life for a lot of folks.
Firearms & Ammo for Church Security
- Thread starter BarryLee
- Start date
spacecoast
New member
LOL, gotta agree. After all, as Matthew 5:9 says, "Blessed are the peacemakers..."
No problem. I think this is sort of a complicated issue both from a tactical standpoint and an etiquette one as well. There are a lot of folks that just do not want guns in Church and I can understand those feelings. Then others feel we have the right to carry anywhere we want and I must admit I totally understand those feelings as well. In Georgia it is currently illegal to carry in a Church even with a Firearms Permit, but a number of people are attempting to change that.
Personally I believe it should be up to each organization to determine how best to defend themselves. As everyone has pointed out there really is no one size fits all in group defense just like there is none in personal defense.
Dr. Strangelove
New member
This "team member" and I would be having a serious "come to Jesus talk". If you do have a security team, they need to be respectful and not a bunch of thuggy mall ninja wannabees.
A couple of thoughts:
If your church is one of the larger denominations, Catholic, Southern Baptist, etc., your regional or national offices have likely already addressed this issue and may offer guidance.
I'd recommend seeking legal advice to see what sort of liability a Church sponsored and armed "security team" exposes the the church to, as well as potential personal liabilities of the individual "team members".
stonewall50
New member
Just something to remember: if you have a visible security team then you are going to scare people away. If I saw ARs in security hands at a church I considered, that would probably cross them off of my list. I bet I am not the only one who feels that way.
But if you are a small town church with a large congregation and you DO need security for Sunday services, then I would say it might be best to discuss it with elders or whatever and keep it small and simple. More than likely ANY issue with someone causing a problem can be handled by a few grown men without violence if someone is not carrying a weapon (and even if violence ensues without weapon, then a few men should be able to restrain or throw the person out). Of course if weapons come out, the Church security needs to understand that any form of shooting WILL risk the lives of those in the sanctuary. They must be aware of how to handle the situation if deadly weapons are brandished.
But if you are a small town church with a large congregation and you DO need security for Sunday services, then I would say it might be best to discuss it with elders or whatever and keep it small and simple. More than likely ANY issue with someone causing a problem can be handled by a few grown men without violence if someone is not carrying a weapon (and even if violence ensues without weapon, then a few men should be able to restrain or throw the person out). Of course if weapons come out, the Church security needs to understand that any form of shooting WILL risk the lives of those in the sanctuary. They must be aware of how to handle the situation if deadly weapons are brandished.
I did a search and found a post which listed 19 church shootings in the last 12 years (1999 - 2010). I edited out the details and just kept the dates and municipalities. In most shootings there were multiple murders.
February 14, 2010 - Richmond, CA
March 8, 2009 - Maryville, Illinois
July 27, 2008 - Knoxville, TN
Dec. 9, 2007 - Colorado; 2 shootings same day one in Denver and one Colorado Springs
May 20, 2007 - Moscow, Idaho
Aug. 12, 2007 - Neosho, Missouri
May 21, 2006 - Baton Rouge, LA
Feb. 26, 2006 - Detroit, Michigan
April 9, 2005 - College Park, GA
March 12, 2005 - Brookfield, Wisconsin
July 30, 2005 - College Park, Georgia
Dec. 17, 2004, Garden Grove, CA
Oct. 5, 2003 - Atlanta, Georgia
June 10, 2002 - Conception, Missouri
March 12, 2002 - Lynbrook, New York
May 18, 2001 - Hopkinsville, KY
Sept. 15, 1999 - Fort Worth, Texas
April 15, 1999 - Salt Lake City, Utah
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...ch-shootings-11-years-comprehensive-list.html
This would seem to indicate that church shootings are not insignificant. How useful statistics are in predicting the threat you might face on any given day is beyond me. It is as easy to carry a concealed weapon in to a church as in to a grocery store.
Training would have to deal with the difficulties of many innocent people in the building, potential hostage situations, hostages as shields, the high probability that any round fired which missed the target would hit an innocent, the imperative to end the assailants continuing shooting of innocent people . . . (certainly not a complete list of challenges).
A bad situation which could be made worse by poor decisions of good people, or the inability of being able to respond in a defensive manner because firearms are denied to law abiding individuals.
February 14, 2010 - Richmond, CA
March 8, 2009 - Maryville, Illinois
July 27, 2008 - Knoxville, TN
Dec. 9, 2007 - Colorado; 2 shootings same day one in Denver and one Colorado Springs
May 20, 2007 - Moscow, Idaho
Aug. 12, 2007 - Neosho, Missouri
May 21, 2006 - Baton Rouge, LA
Feb. 26, 2006 - Detroit, Michigan
April 9, 2005 - College Park, GA
March 12, 2005 - Brookfield, Wisconsin
July 30, 2005 - College Park, Georgia
Dec. 17, 2004, Garden Grove, CA
Oct. 5, 2003 - Atlanta, Georgia
June 10, 2002 - Conception, Missouri
March 12, 2002 - Lynbrook, New York
May 18, 2001 - Hopkinsville, KY
Sept. 15, 1999 - Fort Worth, Texas
April 15, 1999 - Salt Lake City, Utah
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...ch-shootings-11-years-comprehensive-list.html
This would seem to indicate that church shootings are not insignificant. How useful statistics are in predicting the threat you might face on any given day is beyond me. It is as easy to carry a concealed weapon in to a church as in to a grocery store.
Training would have to deal with the difficulties of many innocent people in the building, potential hostage situations, hostages as shields, the high probability that any round fired which missed the target would hit an innocent, the imperative to end the assailants continuing shooting of innocent people . . . (certainly not a complete list of challenges).
A bad situation which could be made worse by poor decisions of good people, or the inability of being able to respond in a defensive manner because firearms are denied to law abiding individuals.
Well crossfire is a problem I would rather have than not have, who is the government to tell us not to protect us in Church. If it were my congregation I would ask a few members to bring AR-15s.
From my blog:
Allot of even pro gun individuals cringe when you talk about carry in a church, but it is perhaps one of the easiest places for a mass shooter to "get" as many people as they can. Lots of people in a confined place makes these locations really vulnerable. It doesn't matter that these places are filled with religious individuals that would likely never go on a rampage. Anyone can walk into a church.
serf 'rett
New member
Well, actually, our state doesn't allow concealed carry in church, but if they did I'd tote 9mm w/hollow points since my all metal 40S&W behemoth is simply so heavy I'm afraid I might inadvertently flash someone.
I do believe that is a BS law. The benefits of an armed public are non-circumstantial.
Church carry
The only question so far that has bothered me is when a poster asked, "what kind of church is this that you need guns...". That answer is extremely obvious. A normal church which cares about the safety of members.
Also to the poster who holds that you can't shoot safely around 100s of people... Yes, you can.
In the times we find ourselves managing to live in a church is not a safe area any longer. TWice recently our worship services have been interrupted by persons under the influence who were unruly and abusive. Neither time was safe due to Police presence. The Police cannot always be where you are when your life and safety, and that of others, is threatened. We HAVE to be prepared to help and protect ourselves. In neither of those two times was it necessary to use, or show, a gun. All needed was a show of force and an escort to the doors and off the property. The gun was there if needed.
I say that as a Retired Police Officer with 41 years experience.
I carry in church. A reason I do is that I have no intentions of seeing good and Godly people terrorized and made to fear for their lives. I have carried and qualified with handguns, shotguns and rifles for a very long time and have served as explosive ordnance control officer in the department.
I carry Glaser Silver safety slugs in my handgun in church,
For answers to the obvious questions; I don't "want" to hurt anyone. I do understand the legal responsibilities of using a firearm in public. I do know that I will probably be arrested if I shoot someone in church. Shooting will be an absolute final solution, but it won't be a result of an action by a committee.
I just won't stand by while good people are terrorized by a criminal. If I have the means to protect my family and myself and others and I don't use that means I believe that God would have some strong words for me about that. I'm sure this is a hot-button topic and I knew before I started typing that I am gonna get talked about. Knock yourselves out. You now know where I stand. You may never know me but you know that if I am around and the monkey backs into the fan there will be at least one man around who will do his best to protect you and your family.
The only question so far that has bothered me is when a poster asked, "what kind of church is this that you need guns...". That answer is extremely obvious. A normal church which cares about the safety of members.
Also to the poster who holds that you can't shoot safely around 100s of people... Yes, you can.
In the times we find ourselves managing to live in a church is not a safe area any longer. TWice recently our worship services have been interrupted by persons under the influence who were unruly and abusive. Neither time was safe due to Police presence. The Police cannot always be where you are when your life and safety, and that of others, is threatened. We HAVE to be prepared to help and protect ourselves. In neither of those two times was it necessary to use, or show, a gun. All needed was a show of force and an escort to the doors and off the property. The gun was there if needed.
I say that as a Retired Police Officer with 41 years experience.
I carry in church. A reason I do is that I have no intentions of seeing good and Godly people terrorized and made to fear for their lives. I have carried and qualified with handguns, shotguns and rifles for a very long time and have served as explosive ordnance control officer in the department.
I carry Glaser Silver safety slugs in my handgun in church,
For answers to the obvious questions; I don't "want" to hurt anyone. I do understand the legal responsibilities of using a firearm in public. I do know that I will probably be arrested if I shoot someone in church. Shooting will be an absolute final solution, but it won't be a result of an action by a committee.
I just won't stand by while good people are terrorized by a criminal. If I have the means to protect my family and myself and others and I don't use that means I believe that God would have some strong words for me about that. I'm sure this is a hot-button topic and I knew before I started typing that I am gonna get talked about. Knock yourselves out. You now know where I stand. You may never know me but you know that if I am around and the monkey backs into the fan there will be at least one man around who will do his best to protect you and your family.
"To SERVE & protect"...
I read over the last few remarks & I agree with a few posts.
For the church security detail to have & train with less lethal devices(OC spray, EDWs/taser, strobe lights, etc) is a good idea. Firearms or lethal force are the final step or line of defense in a serious event.
To have the staff members trained in CPR/first aid, AEDs, etc or being able to assist lost kids, disabled vehicles/keys locked in, etc etc would be a help
too.
As a uniformed security officer & as a MP(E-4) I'd say public assist calls or minor PR type incidents took up more of my shift time than fending off masked bad guys or armed evil doers. It's not tactical or high speed but it's what many cops & security staff deal with on duty.
Clyde
I read over the last few remarks & I agree with a few posts.
For the church security detail to have & train with less lethal devices(OC spray, EDWs/taser, strobe lights, etc) is a good idea. Firearms or lethal force are the final step or line of defense in a serious event.
To have the staff members trained in CPR/first aid, AEDs, etc or being able to assist lost kids, disabled vehicles/keys locked in, etc etc would be a help
too.
As a uniformed security officer & as a MP(E-4) I'd say public assist calls or minor PR type incidents took up more of my shift time than fending off masked bad guys or armed evil doers. It's not tactical or high speed but it's what many cops & security staff deal with on duty.
Clyde
The church I belong to seems to be a mix of the various scenarios I have seen at this thread. We have roughly 1200 members, of which about 800 show up on a typical Sunday, and a couple dozen of those carry. We also have a couple of our pastors who carry! In addition, the pastor team has asked the facilities manager (who is also a Deacon) to organize a security team to be added to the Emergency Planning that we already have (medical, weather, children [custody], etc). The Apex, NC, police department periodically sponsors a seminar on the subject of church security, and one of their messages is that a "security team" is only one part of a comprehensive security plan. A comprehensive security plan includes considerations of the hardware of the church (windows and doors, latches, electronic devices, for instance) plus thinking about how and where a BG would enter and hide (bushes too near the building, insufficient lighting, for instance). We (Yes, I'm on the security committee!) are organizing a small security team whose main job on meeting days (Sunday and Wednesday, primarily) will be to observe, looking for unusual behavior and/or circumstances. We plan to have radio communication to a central person. The central person would be the one responsible to call 911 if needed.
One other activity of the security committee will be an attempt to organize all those who do carry in church. We need to discuss many of the items that have been discussed in this thread, including where not to shoot. Of course we will not be able to cover every conceivable situation, but at least we will be doing some serious organizing.
The original question of this thread was "So, if you were specifying firearms and ammunition for use by a Security Team in a large (1000+) person assembly situation what would you select and why?" I'm on board with the posts at this thread which suggest that the firearms should be what the carrier is most familiar with (His/her own gun, probably!), and the ammunition probably hollow point, for all the reasons already discussed in this thread. But I'm also on board with the suggestions that it is the person behind the gun, and the skill (or lack of it) that is the most important factor. Practice, practice, practice! And the security team will hold regular "seminars" for those who carry.
One other activity of the security committee will be an attempt to organize all those who do carry in church. We need to discuss many of the items that have been discussed in this thread, including where not to shoot. Of course we will not be able to cover every conceivable situation, but at least we will be doing some serious organizing.
The original question of this thread was "So, if you were specifying firearms and ammunition for use by a Security Team in a large (1000+) person assembly situation what would you select and why?" I'm on board with the posts at this thread which suggest that the firearms should be what the carrier is most familiar with (His/her own gun, probably!), and the ammunition probably hollow point, for all the reasons already discussed in this thread. But I'm also on board with the suggestions that it is the person behind the gun, and the skill (or lack of it) that is the most important factor. Practice, practice, practice! And the security team will hold regular "seminars" for those who carry.
Winchester_73
New member
If the members were allowed to carry, there wouldn't be a need for a security team. I would just carry anyways if I were a member. A church that people could hate for insanity reasons or since it could be targeted for a hostage situation is irresponsible to stop its member's from carrying.
Did anyone stop and think that if the church was targeted by a well organized thought out terroristic team, they would simply target the guards? But they couldn't target people with a CCW because its concealed.
Allowing members to carry is a much wiser choice. The people who would carry to church are those who carry already on the outside anyways.
Did anyone stop and think that if the church was targeted by a well organized thought out terroristic team, they would simply target the guards? But they couldn't target people with a CCW because its concealed.
Allowing members to carry is a much wiser choice. The people who would carry to church are those who carry already on the outside anyways.
Sorry, but I missed the post talking about searching the attending members
An organized security team can possibly stop a threat before it reaches the Sanctuary (and the many seated people inside).
Beside, there is still a need of a team for the other contingencies that have been mentioned in this thread. People who know where the exits, fire extinguishers, AED's, etc. are located and how to get people where they need to be in an emergency. Otherwise it just becomes a church cluster.
If the guards carry concealed, who's going to know anyway?
I would never limit a members ability to CCW.