Firearms & Ammo for Church Security
- Thread starter BarryLee
- Start date
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I believe air marshals use frangible ammo in order to minimize penetration of anything other than their target so, unless they miss, the possibility of a round over-penetrating and wounding another passenger is small.Noreaster said:
By the way:
Why did you capitalize "security team"? It seems to me that's attaching a lot of significance to a hypothetical group that doesn't even exist yet.BarryLee said:
Crazy88Fingers
New member
Here in Florida armed security guards are allowed to carry 9mm semi-autos and .38 revolvers (or .357s with .38s loaded). These are efficient rounds that won't over-penetrate, can be easily controlled, and are cheap enough for plenty of practice.
A while back, my church was having some problems with a particular member (who had some mental problems) and so it was decided to hire two off duty cops for security. It cost $200 dollars a week out of the general fund. One stayed downstairs in the nave and the other sat in the choir loft. Of course there were two other regulars in the congregation who were usually there and always armed. One was an ATF agent and the other was FBI. It seemed to work well and was cheap. The guy showed up one Sunday (the church had already taken out a restraining order) and was promptly escorted out in handcuffs. That was nearly a decade ago and nobody has heard from him since. I forget how long they kept the cops around, maybe a couple of years after the incident. Anyway, my church is pretty small averaging around 300-500 total attendance spread over two services, and it was no great financial burden. I imagine that a much larger congregation could easily afford more (actually so could my church) but two officers were deemed adequate.
My parents go to a large church in Buckhead in Atlanta, and they hire off duty APD as I guess a kind of "security team" they hang out in the back during the service although really their main priority seems to be directing the traffic before and after the services. I really cant see members of their congregation carrying, although it would be fun to imagine.
FWIW the APD carry's M&P 40s, to add relevance to my comment.
FWIW the APD carry's M&P 40s, to add relevance to my comment.
stonewall50
New member
All of this depends on the church obviously. Someone mentioned their small church in a previous post, but the church had 300-500 members? My church averages about 15-20 each sunday across...Sunday school and our 1 service lol. We have never brought up the issue of security because we have never really had a need even though we ARE located in a bad area.
BUT since this appears to be a large church that we are discussing then I would say that if you cannot hire local law enforcement for security(OR you have none that are members of the congregation that are willing to work during the Sunday services), that it might be a consideration to hire a quality security team. By that I mean a team that has time to practice and has already handled LARGE events of similar size. I would say a close comparison might be a small concert. IF you do not have to go outside the congregation to get this GREAT, but it I would say it is VERY important that your team be FULLY aware of how to act within an environment of such high numbers and that they regularly practice this.
Being a proud member of the Don't Tase Me Bro University has really made me question how large groups are handled, but I certainly know that a taser was a good addition to the LEO belt in that sitaution. That was campus police though. ALSO I would say visible security is a nice thing to have in a large environment. It says we are ready for bad things, but of course it might take away from some of the church message too lol. It is all up to the Church body. BTW I would believe that sepparation of Church and state would apply right?
BUT since this appears to be a large church that we are discussing then I would say that if you cannot hire local law enforcement for security(OR you have none that are members of the congregation that are willing to work during the Sunday services), that it might be a consideration to hire a quality security team. By that I mean a team that has time to practice and has already handled LARGE events of similar size. I would say a close comparison might be a small concert. IF you do not have to go outside the congregation to get this GREAT, but it I would say it is VERY important that your team be FULLY aware of how to act within an environment of such high numbers and that they regularly practice this.
Being a proud member of the Don't Tase Me Bro University has really made me question how large groups are handled, but I certainly know that a taser was a good addition to the LEO belt in that sitaution. That was campus police though. ALSO I would say visible security is a nice thing to have in a large environment. It says we are ready for bad things, but of course it might take away from some of the church message too lol. It is all up to the Church body. BTW I would believe that sepparation of Church and state would apply right?
stonewall50
New member
Flavoraid....
Grape flavored I think - LOL
But really, my church isn't that big. It was built in the 1940's and has a maximum capacity of about 500 if you start seating people in the choir loft, and is usually not more than half full at a time, Christmas and Easter excepting. By comparison, there's a couple mega churches not too far from me that boast regular attendance of 2500+ per service, and one that has at least 5000! I went to a graduation being held there and felt like there should be some guy running around shouting "Peanuts! Getch'ur peanuts!" They actually have an information desk with seating section maps...
But really, my church isn't that big. It was built in the 1940's and has a maximum capacity of about 500 if you start seating people in the choir loft, and is usually not more than half full at a time, Christmas and Easter excepting. By comparison, there's a couple mega churches not too far from me that boast regular attendance of 2500+ per service, and one that has at least 5000! I went to a graduation being held there and felt like there should be some guy running around shouting "Peanuts! Getch'ur peanuts!" They actually have an information desk with seating section maps...
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The first place to start is in the church with a frank discussion of the nature and scope of the threat, if any. The discussion also must take of the type of defense needed. What caliber to carry in guns is far down on the list of what needs to be done and thought out.
The strength of the congregation, is the congregation. You will find that many churches already have the nucleus of security teams in them. This is what your Deacons were many years back. Though even they may have forgotten what they were established for.
Such teams were a part of the congregation. They knew it and the community. When they acted they did so with the authority of the congregation and community and their response was at the level needed.
It's difficult to have valid discussions of this subject in the abstract. If there is a threat to the church it should not be an abstract, generic one. If there is a threat to the church then an actual discussion needs to be held there based on the actual threat.
tipoc
The strength of the congregation, is the congregation. You will find that many churches already have the nucleus of security teams in them. This is what your Deacons were many years back. Though even they may have forgotten what they were established for.
Such teams were a part of the congregation. They knew it and the community. When they acted they did so with the authority of the congregation and community and their response was at the level needed.
It's difficult to have valid discussions of this subject in the abstract. If there is a threat to the church it should not be an abstract, generic one. If there is a threat to the church then an actual discussion needs to be held there based on the actual threat.
tipoc
GoOfY-FoOt
New member
+1 for post #33....
I think everyone is missing the point. Are you concerned with someone busting in and stealing the collection offerings or, an armed group utilizing 1,000 easily coerced, hostages?
If it is your House, the odds are already in your favor. Most churches have a foyer. I would establish a way to lock down the foyer, neutralizing a threat.
Most large congregations have someone acting as a sentry, posted in the entrance area. Mag locks on the doors would be sufficient until the SWAT/Commando Deacons suit up, and prepare for entry. Sweeper teams with ARs and flash-bangs, should be sufficient...
I understand preparedness, but seriously...What threat do you anticipate?
I think everyone is missing the point. Are you concerned with someone busting in and stealing the collection offerings or, an armed group utilizing 1,000 easily coerced, hostages?
If it is your House, the odds are already in your favor. Most churches have a foyer. I would establish a way to lock down the foyer, neutralizing a threat.
Most large congregations have someone acting as a sentry, posted in the entrance area. Mag locks on the doors would be sufficient until the SWAT/Commando Deacons suit up, and prepare for entry. Sweeper teams with ARs and flash-bangs, should be sufficient...
I understand preparedness, but seriously...What threat do you anticipate?
Pastor
Church shootings are a lot more common than most people think. Sometimes it is a domestic abuse situation and sometimes it is a deranged attacker. In 1999, a friend of mine was the youth minister at Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort Worth when a man walked into their Wednesday night service and killed seven. In 2007 a man walked into a Colorado church and began firing; he was stopped by the heroic Ms. Assam. In 2009 a gunman shot and killed a pastor as he preached the early morning service before church members wrestled him down and took the gun away. And last month a pastor in Arlington, TX was murdered during the week and his secretary was nearly killed by two men who wanted money.
As the pastor of a church that runs 120-140 in Sunday School, this issue is very important to me! We are far too small to hire a full-time security guard. But we have several people who carry concealed on Sunday morning. And there is always someone armed in the office during the week, but I will not say who!
What kind of weapon should people carry in church? One that works! Armed resistance stops most of these gunmen, one way or another. In the few cases where the shooter has been confronted by someone armed, the shooter gives up or turns the gun on himself.
For me, I am willing to die for my Savior. But I am not willing to allow an unsettled individual to kill innocent people, especially women or children. My church will not be a "gun free" zone!
Church shootings are a lot more common than most people think. Sometimes it is a domestic abuse situation and sometimes it is a deranged attacker. In 1999, a friend of mine was the youth minister at Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort Worth when a man walked into their Wednesday night service and killed seven. In 2007 a man walked into a Colorado church and began firing; he was stopped by the heroic Ms. Assam. In 2009 a gunman shot and killed a pastor as he preached the early morning service before church members wrestled him down and took the gun away. And last month a pastor in Arlington, TX was murdered during the week and his secretary was nearly killed by two men who wanted money.
As the pastor of a church that runs 120-140 in Sunday School, this issue is very important to me! We are far too small to hire a full-time security guard. But we have several people who carry concealed on Sunday morning. And there is always someone armed in the office during the week, but I will not say who!
What kind of weapon should people carry in church? One that works! Armed resistance stops most of these gunmen, one way or another. In the few cases where the shooter has been confronted by someone armed, the shooter gives up or turns the gun on himself.
For me, I am willing to die for my Savior. But I am not willing to allow an unsettled individual to kill innocent people, especially women or children. My church will not be a "gun free" zone!
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Glenn E. Meyer
New member
If you want to call people paranoid and tell them they should go to another church, perhaps this is the wrong forum for you.
Church shootings are not unknown, and we value being civil and not a wise guy.
Church shootings are not unknown, and we value being civil and not a wise guy.
Personally I think that in general lethal firearms in that type of environment is a bad abd idea, I dont car if its FBI, BATF, CIA, or gods own holy warriors, buf if the cheurch poweres that be deemed it neccessary I would suggest a front line of les than lethal such as tasers, or bean bags/rubber slugs via shotgun with actaul lead being an extrememly last resort. I'd much rather my kid take an errant shot from a bean bag or taser rather than Xmm of lead poisoning.
spacecoast
New member
Then you're saying that you don't want anyone to carry a firearm, anywhere. Think about it, where can you go where there are no innocent people to possibly take an errant bullet? Would you rather have some kind of chance against a maniac with a gun or just let him mow down your kid, and you?
If you think you "need" a gun, then you shouldn't be there in the first place. It's the situations nobody wants or expects that you carry for, duh.
Excellent. +1
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