Amen RevJim I agree 100%. Anyone with access to the internet can search on church violence. And sad to say it is getting worse. BGs know that when churches or other places where people gather in numbers that does not allow people to have a gun means an they have potential targets to hurt or kill people. As I have told everyone BGs don't follow the law that is why they are BG's . And putting limits on law abiding people makes it easier for them. That's why gun control will never lower the crime rate . That would only mean BSs would be armed .
Firearms & Ammo for Church Security
- Thread starter BarryLee
- Start date
They collect money in them Churches and that makes it a target for the idiot druggies and other idiots in need of easy cash.
Ever been in a temple? Armed guards in the ones around here, lots of gold items in there and other valuables to tempt the idiots.
Why would a person carry daily but leave it off at home just because he will be in a Church. Heck even Jesus got violent in one
and did what he had to do. I bet he would carry in this day and age bless him.
Ever been in a temple? Armed guards in the ones around here, lots of gold items in there and other valuables to tempt the idiots.
Why would a person carry daily but leave it off at home just because he will be in a Church. Heck even Jesus got violent in one
and did what he had to do. I bet he would carry in this day and age bless him.No, not at all. I said that environment, where people at packed in like sardines. But I concede I was probably not as clear as I should have been.
I would not be crazy about a group of unknown individuals who believe it is their job to protect me, wading into a very crowded room full of people, with no options OTHER than deadly force. You'll remember in my original I never said no lethal firearms. I said lethal firearms as a last resort.
I would be more comfortable with people in the congregation that are CCW than any "team" whose competance and training is a complete unknown. At least with CCW holders you have an idea of what they've done in order to get the license. I'd still rather depend on me to take care of my own rather a complete unknown.
I personally think that having perhaps your ushers armed with a pocket gun or a XD/Glock (take your pick of polymer hi cap pistols). Then have some others with pepper or tasers. I feel that if you are going to organize it like it sounds like you are doing there should only be a couple with pistols and they should rotate weekly. Maybe another in the congregation itself with a pistol as a surprise or last resort. I think you would want to keep the amount of lethal weapons low.
I took mine to church when we went for my son's cubs scouts. When my wife asked about it I asked her what made one building inherently safer then another.
I took mine to church when we went for my son's cubs scouts. When my wife asked about it I asked her what made one building inherently safer then another.
At the church I attend, we generally run about 300 in church on Sunday. I'm a retired federal law enforcement agent and carry 24/7. It's natural for me to carry my .45ACP to church as it is anywhere else. We also have a university police officer (state certified) who also carries his 1911 every service. The pastor knows we carry and a few others know I carry also. It's nice to say that one shouldn't carry in church, but what about going to and from church? What if it's your habit to go out to eat after church? Would you want to leave your carry weapon in your car locked up just so you don't carry it in church? I'm uncomfortable leaving my weapon in my vehicle anywhere. I sincerely hope that I never need it at church, but I also would regret not carrying and someone coming in shooting church members and knowing I was not prepared for that outcome. So, everyone has their opinions and ideas about what is best for them, and I respect that decision. But for me, I will carry all the time, whether I'm in church or the mall, and do the best I can do where ever I am.
OK, I guess it's closer to "average" for the town where I live. I guess it just seems small since I know just about everybody (and they know me) and can tell immediately if there are new/unfamiliar faces in the crowd... I certainly agree that ten is small. That's about how many people I graduated high school with, and yup, small is the word.
Personally, I'd like to be able to carry in church, not for security, but I do go places besides home afterward and dislike leaving my weapon in the car. That's something I've yet to see a good solution for. There are strong-boxes and whatnot, but if I were a criminal and I saw one in a car, I'd probably assume there was something valuable inside and either rip the whole box out of the vehicle or steal the car and worry about getting into the box later. This has been a source of great frustration for me, since I carry, but am often required to leave my gun in the car...
Back on topic, I used to do Schutzhund training with my German Shepherds (from Czech and DDR bloodlines, for any of you GSD aficionados), what about a K-9 unit? I'd much sooner trust an average SchH3 dog in that situation than a even a well trained shooter. And if the guy runs (not that he's likely escape the dog mind you), you're ready to track him. There might even already be someone with a certified working dog in the congregation, and I'm sure he'd like to tag along. Not only that, dogs also provide a huge psychological boost when used in security applications. For whatever reason, a lot of people are more afraid of a working dog than a a heavily armed officer. I don't get it, but it seems to hold true.
Personally, I'd like to be able to carry in church, not for security, but I do go places besides home afterward and dislike leaving my weapon in the car. That's something I've yet to see a good solution for. There are strong-boxes and whatnot, but if I were a criminal and I saw one in a car, I'd probably assume there was something valuable inside and either rip the whole box out of the vehicle or steal the car and worry about getting into the box later. This has been a source of great frustration for me, since I carry, but am often required to leave my gun in the car...
Back on topic, I used to do Schutzhund training with my German Shepherds (from Czech and DDR bloodlines, for any of you GSD aficionados), what about a K-9 unit? I'd much sooner trust an average SchH3 dog in that situation than a even a well trained shooter. And if the guy runs (not that he's likely escape the dog mind you), you're ready to track him. There might even already be someone with a certified working dog in the congregation, and I'm sure he'd like to tag along. Not only that, dogs also provide a huge psychological boost when used in security applications. For whatever reason, a lot of people are more afraid of a working dog than a a heavily armed officer. I don't get it, but it seems to hold true.
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I think every religion has it's share of nutcases. Same as you find outside of religion. Also, it doesn't take much of a discussion to understand that all churches are a potential target of outside extremists----because they have been.
What type of defense? From a nutcase who would enter your place of worship and proceed to mass murder it's occupants? Best plan for that is being armed, since once the chaos starts, previous plans as to nature and scope of the threat won't be relevent.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
So are workplace shootings, likely more so than random shootings in churches. Shootings in shopping centers and schools also make the list.
If a priest, minister, rabbi, or the congregation believe they have a likely threat than they need to organize a practical discussion on it. Such a discussion can separate the wheat from the chaff. Fluff and air, posturing and posing won't do.
tipoc
As an NRA certified pistol instructor I can without hesitation tell you that the last folks I want waving or perhaps firing guns around me are those only trained to CCW license requirements. The courses I teach are basic pistol and first steps and prepare one to be safe and have a foundation to build proper shooting skills and not a drop more.
Now I will agree that I would also be uncomfortable not knowing what type or level of training the team staff was receiving. That said I would simply ask. Ask for the training regimen. Ask to have video of the training practice. Ask for a mock drill to be run.
I also agree that I would rather trust my ability than an unknown one.
spacecoast
New member
According to the latest Gun Digest there are over 6 million CC licensees in the US, so no matter where you go there are going to be folks around with CC guns, organized or not. I agree that more training is always a good thing and have taken several courses myself beyond the basics.
Threats to churches run a wide range from Islamic Extremists to a disgruntled member. Most center around theft however.
The word "team" could be as few as two members. You hear security team and automatically you think wow thats heavy. Why do we need that here. What are we anticipating here. Every church should have a security team based on realistic threats they anticipate.
Heck our shops have a security team should a riot or hurricane threaten the contents of either business. What are those odds? Still these threats are real and potentially devastating to for the business. A prudent owner understands this as do prudent pastors.
Quote
"I understand preparedness, but seriously...What threat do you anticipate? "
The same question could be asked of people who want to CC . But the Answer is because they want to be prepared for a situation just in case. That is why Churches should be ready just because it can happen. So yes either have church members that can CC or have a team of people who could be ready if something was to happen . Because just because a building is a church does not mean BGs are not willing to go in.
"I understand preparedness, but seriously...What threat do you anticipate? "
The same question could be asked of people who want to CC . But the Answer is because they want to be prepared for a situation just in case. That is why Churches should be ready just because it can happen. So yes either have church members that can CC or have a team of people who could be ready if something was to happen . Because just because a building is a church does not mean BGs are not willing to go in.
Microgunner
New member
Doesn't the JDL use sub guns to protect Synagogues?