loose_holster_dan
New member
my church has plain clothes armed security, but many of us still carry as well. JUST MAKE SURE THE SECURITY TEAM KNOWS YOU ARE CARRYING! you don't want one of them shooting you when you pull on a threat!
Firearms & Ammo for Church Security
- Thread starter BarryLee
- Start date
For those doubters that churches are wise to setup security details.......just over the wires on Fox News......jewish church in LA has a pipe bomb explode outside......its running on Fox right now.
Be safe and be prepared no matter what others think. It is the right thing, the smart thing, the responsible thing, to do.
Be safe and be prepared no matter what others think. It is the right thing, the smart thing, the responsible thing, to do.
My 2 good friends Rand P. and Mike Lessman have been putting thoughts together for just such a class. Randy is retired from Reno PD and was a SWAT member for years. Mike is a current SWAT member and Sgt on Reno PD.
Mike is the man that invented the DSM banner and is the owner of DCM Safety Products.
We have come to the conclusion that the best guns and ammo for a church are exactly the same as what works for cops in crowded areas. A 45 or 40 cal pistol with lighter weight bullets that expand well limit over penetration, and still have good terminal effect.
The best plan (which I am happy to say is the plan being adopted by some churches and synagogues) is to have several people armed at all times with pistols AND have few rifles locked up in a safe with keys in the hands of a few of the church leadership or the heads of security.
The very best arms for such a team is an AR-15s or FN 5.7s, again with light weight bullets (45 and 50 grain) and one that is a potential “sleeper” for large crowds where accuracy is super important and a there can be NO over penetration a Ruger 10/22 with a dot sight zeroed in at 20 yards.
With 38 grain hollow point ammo such a gun could be a priceless asset in an active shooter situation.
In Europe and some of the middle east, the new FN 5.7 is gaining favor for just such use. 22 LRs and 5.7 FNs are not the last word in stopping power by a long way, but in most such situations a shot or two that hits the criminal is going to at least put him down or make it a LOT harder for him to fight his way free of dozens of people that would be able to hold him down after such wounds were delivered.
Mike is the man that invented the DSM banner and is the owner of DCM Safety Products.
We have come to the conclusion that the best guns and ammo for a church are exactly the same as what works for cops in crowded areas. A 45 or 40 cal pistol with lighter weight bullets that expand well limit over penetration, and still have good terminal effect.
The best plan (which I am happy to say is the plan being adopted by some churches and synagogues) is to have several people armed at all times with pistols AND have few rifles locked up in a safe with keys in the hands of a few of the church leadership or the heads of security.
The very best arms for such a team is an AR-15s or FN 5.7s, again with light weight bullets (45 and 50 grain) and one that is a potential “sleeper” for large crowds where accuracy is super important and a there can be NO over penetration a Ruger 10/22 with a dot sight zeroed in at 20 yards.
With 38 grain hollow point ammo such a gun could be a priceless asset in an active shooter situation.
In Europe and some of the middle east, the new FN 5.7 is gaining favor for just such use. 22 LRs and 5.7 FNs are not the last word in stopping power by a long way, but in most such situations a shot or two that hits the criminal is going to at least put him down or make it a LOT harder for him to fight his way free of dozens of people that would be able to hold him down after such wounds were delivered.
I go to one of the "mega-churches" with attendance over 8,000 every weekend. That kind of size makes the church and staff potential targets for nut cases of different stripes. Just a couple of weeks ago, the lead minister mentioned someone tried to physically attack him over a point of scripture. A couple of off-duty cops were there as security and tackled the guy. Who's to say that next time, a nut won't show up with weapons? So, yes. Church security can be very critical.
The fact that this thread needs to exist is a good indicator people are nuts. I just can't imagine attacking somebody because the little book they keep by their bed has the wrong words in it, or I disagreed with their point of view on something. If I attacked everybody I considered wrong, misguided, or totally unwilling to use their brain, there would be a lot fewer people around and I'd be in jail. Violence has never made sense to me... with the exception of the occassional smack of a deserving sibling when you're little. 
I think the suggestion for low penetration 40 and 45 rounds is probably good.
I think the suggestion for low penetration 40 and 45 rounds is probably good.
Posts, church/large areas, building materials...
Let me 1st start by saying I did not read all the topic messages posted by will add my input;
Depending on a few important factors like $$$/budget, skill levels-training, the overall layout & construction of the church/related property, size of the crowds etc, I'd suggest the following;
The security detail members should be armed with either the HK P2000 LEM in .357sig or .40S&W, the Beretta PX4 C model in .40S&W, the Smith and Wesson M&P in .357sig or .40S&W(with the ambi safety), the SIG Sauer P226R or P229R DAK format in .357sig or .40, the Ruger SR40 .40S&W(if budgets are a major problem).
All the sidearms should have 3 dot night sights.
If any of the armed staff are in uniform or carry in the open, ambi-safety type models should be selected but overall, a DA only pistol(DAK, LEM or C type) should be issued. DA only pistols are safe & you avoid false claims of reckless or improper conduct(panic, cocking hammers, etc).
I'd suggest the armed church staff use a Safariland SFS or Blackhawk SERPA type security holster for weapon retention/officer safety. I also advise to use frangible or pre-fragmented rounds in .357sig or .40S&W from Glaser Safety Slug or Magsafe. ExtremeShock USA is on the US market but the quality is very low, in my opinion. The Hornady Critical Defense or TAP rounds may work too.
Special purpose or frangible loads are not cheap but may be a smart choice based on the building material(wood, marble, glass, etc) and large groups of church members. These rounds are designed to avoid over-travel, riccochets, etc. New designs feed well in quality semi auto pistols and function ok.
White lights & lasergrips are a good option but may be best for night use or low light conditions.
In closing I'd suggest using the .357sig first & if not practical, the .40 or larger .45acp.
Special purpose or frang
Let me 1st start by saying I did not read all the topic messages posted by will add my input;
Depending on a few important factors like $$$/budget, skill levels-training, the overall layout & construction of the church/related property, size of the crowds etc, I'd suggest the following;
The security detail members should be armed with either the HK P2000 LEM in .357sig or .40S&W, the Beretta PX4 C model in .40S&W, the Smith and Wesson M&P in .357sig or .40S&W(with the ambi safety), the SIG Sauer P226R or P229R DAK format in .357sig or .40, the Ruger SR40 .40S&W(if budgets are a major problem).
All the sidearms should have 3 dot night sights.
If any of the armed staff are in uniform or carry in the open, ambi-safety type models should be selected but overall, a DA only pistol(DAK, LEM or C type) should be issued. DA only pistols are safe & you avoid false claims of reckless or improper conduct(panic, cocking hammers, etc).
I'd suggest the armed church staff use a Safariland SFS or Blackhawk SERPA type security holster for weapon retention/officer safety. I also advise to use frangible or pre-fragmented rounds in .357sig or .40S&W from Glaser Safety Slug or Magsafe. ExtremeShock USA is on the US market but the quality is very low, in my opinion. The Hornady Critical Defense or TAP rounds may work too.
Special purpose or frangible loads are not cheap but may be a smart choice based on the building material(wood, marble, glass, etc) and large groups of church members. These rounds are designed to avoid over-travel, riccochets, etc. New designs feed well in quality semi auto pistols and function ok.
White lights & lasergrips are a good option but may be best for night use or low light conditions.
In closing I'd suggest using the .357sig first & if not practical, the .40 or larger .45acp.
Special purpose or frang
IowaYoungGun
New member
I agree with EdInk that you should try to utilize current members of your church... Maybe you have some LEO's?
Also, if you do decide to hire a team you should do a cost analysis. If this is going to be a permanent thing how long would it take for the costs to equal out the cost of the proposed training and equipting of your own church personel?
Good luck
Also, if you do decide to hire a team you should do a cost analysis. If this is going to be a permanent thing how long would it take for the costs to equal out the cost of the proposed training and equipting of your own church personel?
Good luck
armsmaster270
New member
Air Marshals use 357Sig Gold Dot JHP's.
The FBI evaluation they did for the marshals is at:
https://sites.google.com/a/armsmaster.net/www/gunsandammo
The FBI evaluation they did for the marshals is at:
https://sites.google.com/a/armsmaster.net/www/gunsandammo
A very simple answer to your equipment question is quite simple: Most any combination that is in wide use as a service weapon by LEO's will do nicely. There are a lot of other choices that will work, but you can't argue against using what the local police use (in terms of liability, function, etc).
Most replies reflect my feelings that a well thought out policy and training for the security team is FAR more important than what guns would be carried. Preventative measures such as locking all side entrances from the outside (that they may still be freely opened from the inside in case of fire), allowing only one main entrance, should be the focus. Preventing a threat from entering the church should be the primary focus. Preventing a threat by locking them out is far better than preventing one by engaging in a gunfight. In the event that a threat does enter the church, the security team is pretty much handcuffed in what it could do.
Also, a frank discussion of what constitutes a "threat" should be had. I don't think this is paranoid talk at all, but I think a thread in the tactics and training for organizational and training tips would be more beneficial than discussing what firearms/calibers/ammunitions should be used. IMHO.
Most replies reflect my feelings that a well thought out policy and training for the security team is FAR more important than what guns would be carried. Preventative measures such as locking all side entrances from the outside (that they may still be freely opened from the inside in case of fire), allowing only one main entrance, should be the focus. Preventing a threat from entering the church should be the primary focus. Preventing a threat by locking them out is far better than preventing one by engaging in a gunfight. In the event that a threat does enter the church, the security team is pretty much handcuffed in what it could do.
Also, a frank discussion of what constitutes a "threat" should be had. I don't think this is paranoid talk at all, but I think a thread in the tactics and training for organizational and training tips would be more beneficial than discussing what firearms/calibers/ammunitions should be used. IMHO.
I have been actively involved in a church security ministry since 2005. I have attended many conferences and taught in a couple.
All churches no matter what size are at some risk. Like many individuals, churches don't normally see the need for a team until after the fact.
The last conference I attended gave this as a guide for church size:
Small: 1-200 (2-6 team members)
Medium: 200-500 (10-20 team members)
Large: 500-5000 (20-50 team members)
Mega Church: 5000-25,000 (? team members + paid full-time staff)
My particular church has around 350 attend on any given Sunday, and we have had several incidents that required team attention in the last 6 years. This is rural Alabama, not downtown NYC or LA.
Regardless of how many team members (if any) are officially armed, I still wouldn't try to limit carry by licensed CCW holders either.
Whatever equipment you choose to carry and train with remember this: You are more likely to deal with medical issues, finding lost children, or evacuating the nursery and elderly in event of a fire than you are to have to deal with an active shooter.
However, all contingencies need to be addressed.
All churches no matter what size are at some risk. Like many individuals, churches don't normally see the need for a team until after the fact.
The last conference I attended gave this as a guide for church size:
Small: 1-200 (2-6 team members)
Medium: 200-500 (10-20 team members)
Large: 500-5000 (20-50 team members)
Mega Church: 5000-25,000 (? team members + paid full-time staff)
My particular church has around 350 attend on any given Sunday, and we have had several incidents that required team attention in the last 6 years. This is rural Alabama, not downtown NYC or LA.
Regardless of how many team members (if any) are officially armed, I still wouldn't try to limit carry by licensed CCW holders either.
Whatever equipment you choose to carry and train with remember this: You are more likely to deal with medical issues, finding lost children, or evacuating the nursery and elderly in event of a fire than you are to have to deal with an active shooter.
However, all contingencies need to be addressed.
rodwhaincamo
New member
LEO would be the ideal choice I believe. They are already trained, have a quality weapon and should be proficient with what they use.
There is an assumed advantage to using off duty LE by many church organizations. Part of this is due to the public seeing officers as defenders of the innocent and all being sharpshooters, after all they carry a gun for a living and are deemed worthy by the government.
Reality is quite different if you've spent any amount of time watching officer qualification. Many officers are barely able to certify with their sidearms. Many departments only qualify once or twice a year. Typically, many of these officers never fire their sidearm for any type of practice between the qualifications. If you only use them for traffic control this might not matter, but do not confuse this as actual protection inside the sanctuary.
Other considerations:
Is the officer trained in active shooter situations?
Is the officer covered by workman’s comp while working at the church?
Will the department stand behind the officer with legal support if an incident occurs and goes to court?
How do you handle the situation if the officer has an compatibility problem with the staff and members?
IMO there are many more negatives to hiring off-duty officers vs using trained volunteers.
my church would be in the mega category. we have 8 different "campuses" with about 8000 members (ChurchofTheHighlands.com check out the online service, Chris Hodges is a powerfull speaker) and my particular location is downtown 1/2 a mile from a BAD part of town. we have to stop at a redlight every sunday that is a great place to get jacked. i carry every day, go to the range 2 to 4 times a month, and shoot many different training methods. i have never seen combat or LE duty but feel like i am a great shot and do well under pressure. why wouldnt i carry ? i never thought about us having a security team (or not having) but i might suggest it now. i know i will have the tools to contribute if needed. it is a shame that noplace is safe anymore but we have to be, as armed citizens, ready at all times for the worst case scenario. my answer would be regular carriers and their primary weapon, hopefully with hollow point or frangible type ammo. i personally carry a full size 12+1, .45 with +P hollowpoints. barring adrenalin effects, i WILL hit my target.
Straightshooter629
New member
Unfortunately, all churches can't afford the cost to hire LEOs, off duty or not. All the members of our team are certified by the State Attorney General, and undergo regular training and range time.