Feeling Undergunned
- Thread starter Joe_Pike
- Start date
Bill DeShivs
New member
There is a reason Tom Givens prefers high capacity guns. Many years ago, he was accosted by someone, I believe in a double carport. Both he and his assailant emptied their revolvers at each other. No hits were made. At the time, Givens was one of the top "combat" pistoleers in the country.
Living in the same wonderful city as Mr. Givens (Memphis,) I had to rethink my carry options. I kept a Charter Arms .38 Undercover handy in the car, and carried a Star .380. My commute through this armpit of a city was rather long, and the natives are often restless- gangs and crime rampant, and rioting very likely. I moved up to a high capacity 9mm with extra magazines for my car gun because of the likelihood of multiple assailants. If tensions were really high, I carried my .30 carbine "Enforcer" pistol with multiple 30 round mags.
Living in the same wonderful city as Mr. Givens (Memphis,) I had to rethink my carry options. I kept a Charter Arms .38 Undercover handy in the car, and carried a Star .380. My commute through this armpit of a city was rather long, and the natives are often restless- gangs and crime rampant, and rioting very likely. I moved up to a high capacity 9mm with extra magazines for my car gun because of the likelihood of multiple assailants. If tensions were really high, I carried my .30 carbine "Enforcer" pistol with multiple 30 round mags.
jason.jardine72
New member
I'm canadian .30 carbine Enforcer pistol with 4 or 5 30 round mags boggles me .
jason.jardine72
New member
But I understand I.m aware !
jason.jardine72
New member
I suppose life in prison forbidden my .22. Cal 1455fps. With my 3 110 round mags would work somewhat! !!
Im 5'-6", and have carried full sized handguns, often with a back up as well, 18/7/365 for around 40 years now. Theres no need to handicap yourself with a "little" gun.
You can easily carry a full size, much easier to shoot well with handgun, even in the heat of summer, even in just a pair of shorts and a light shirt.
It simply takes what it takes, with any of them. There is no secret formula or caliber, you just keep shooting until they are down and out.
The trick is, to have enough on board ammo to allow you to deal with the unexpected and sustain fire until you can.
I would much rather have 16 left out of 17, than to need number 6 out of five. I have a couple of 642's, and a number of .380's and 32's, and all of them pretty much are simply range guns now, to stay on top of them. The smallest I usually go with these days, is a Glock 26, and thats still a back up.
Its also a "smart" back up, in the sense it can be a "big" gun, with a simple mag change.
jason.jardine72
New member
I have respect for you men you really care about this man's saftie !!!!! May all your rounds impact were intended in the future! !!!!!
OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by Moomooboo:
Are you aware that, more often than not, if you are involved in a use of force incident, you will be facing more than one assailant?
Do you like the idea of ending up with an empty firearm?
Are there hit rate and other assumptions that you prefer to the ones that John assumed? What likelihood of success with five shots do they yield?
Unfortunately, to my knowledge, there have only been two such studies, and only one has been officially published. That is the Rangemaster study. The man who put it together, Tom Givens, recommends against a five shot revolver. But both data samples are quite small, and there are a lot of variables.
Have you studied JohnKSa's analysis, posted above?
Are you aware that, more often than not, if you are involved in a use of force incident, you will be facing more than one assailant?
Do you like the idea of ending up with an empty firearm?
Are there hit rate and other assumptions that you prefer to the ones that John assumed? What likelihood of success with five shots do they yield?
Joe,
Is moving an option? Seriously, from what you describe I'd feel under gunned with ANY handgun. No offense intended, but life is too short to live in a pooh hole.
I guess were I in your situation, my default handgun would be the one I shoot best, the one that is the most instinctive for me to shoot that I can still carry concealed. When I visit a nearby town that has a high crime rate for my area, that's what I do. For me, at 6'7" and 200 lbs, that means a S&W Model 28 .357 with a 4" barrel. There isn't a handgun in my safe that I can shoot faster more precisely, whether I'm ducking behind "cover", standing upright or laying on the ground. Everyone has different criteria for handgun selection. If confronted with multiple assailants with no means of escape, IMHO my best bet is to quickly figure out who the pack leader is and engage that individual FIRST. Hopefully then his "followers" will flee. I'm simply not skilled enough to slug it out with 3 + attackers armed with firearms. For me, a hi cap auto in such a situation would just allow me to take more of them with me. God forbid I ever face such a situation.
I have autos that I carry or may carry one day. I love my 1911s, but both are down for repairs right now (the Colt needs extractor/ejector tuning because it throws brass in my face, and the Springfield that I've carried at times since 2007 I just learned has an out of spec lower barrel lug that is making contact with the lower part of the frame recess - not good, requires a new barrel). And the end, I just can't shoot a 1911 as well as a S&W K or N Frame. I have a hi cap CZ-75 that out of the blue began having near constant extraction problems (bad ejector). Went back to CZ where I learned it also had a weak mainspring (the gun only had 500 rounds through it at the time). So far I seem to do pretty well with it, and I love how it feels in my hands, though I have to rebuild my trust in it. I've also had intentionally induced limp wrist/arm failures with Glocks and XDs. Given my experiences and abilities, I'll still tend to lean more towards my revolvers, at least for the near future. Anything mechanical can fail, but knock on wood, my revolvers have been notably more trouble free. Looking back through my logbooks makes that clear.
One other option you have is the NY reload. Get a second x42 and carry it in your other pocket. This would have the added bonus of balancing weight between your left and right sides
.
Is moving an option? Seriously, from what you describe I'd feel under gunned with ANY handgun. No offense intended, but life is too short to live in a pooh hole.
I guess were I in your situation, my default handgun would be the one I shoot best, the one that is the most instinctive for me to shoot that I can still carry concealed. When I visit a nearby town that has a high crime rate for my area, that's what I do. For me, at 6'7" and 200 lbs, that means a S&W Model 28 .357 with a 4" barrel. There isn't a handgun in my safe that I can shoot faster more precisely, whether I'm ducking behind "cover", standing upright or laying on the ground. Everyone has different criteria for handgun selection. If confronted with multiple assailants with no means of escape, IMHO my best bet is to quickly figure out who the pack leader is and engage that individual FIRST. Hopefully then his "followers" will flee. I'm simply not skilled enough to slug it out with 3 + attackers armed with firearms. For me, a hi cap auto in such a situation would just allow me to take more of them with me. God forbid I ever face such a situation.
I have autos that I carry or may carry one day. I love my 1911s, but both are down for repairs right now (the Colt needs extractor/ejector tuning because it throws brass in my face, and the Springfield that I've carried at times since 2007 I just learned has an out of spec lower barrel lug that is making contact with the lower part of the frame recess - not good, requires a new barrel). And the end, I just can't shoot a 1911 as well as a S&W K or N Frame. I have a hi cap CZ-75 that out of the blue began having near constant extraction problems (bad ejector). Went back to CZ where I learned it also had a weak mainspring (the gun only had 500 rounds through it at the time). So far I seem to do pretty well with it, and I love how it feels in my hands, though I have to rebuild my trust in it. I've also had intentionally induced limp wrist/arm failures with Glocks and XDs. Given my experiences and abilities, I'll still tend to lean more towards my revolvers, at least for the near future. Anything mechanical can fail, but knock on wood, my revolvers have been notably more trouble free. Looking back through my logbooks makes that clear.
One other option you have is the NY reload. Get a second x42 and carry it in your other pocket. This would have the added bonus of balancing weight between your left and right sides
.Deaf Smith
New member
Model12,
I'm 5' 8". What I do is I use a belt slide holster and were a t-shirt. Over the t-shirt I wear a short sleeved Dockers shirt (Wal-mart.) Regular blue jeans to boot.
http://www.kohls.com/catalog/mens-d...2+4294722183+4294718815+4294719805+4294719810
Simple and it works.
When the Glock 43 comes out I'll try it and see if with a IWB I can pack it with just a loose t-shirt over it.
With full magnums that will do the deed! Not as many shots but with 125gr slugs at 1400+ it will take the starch out of the attackers.
Deaf
My gun is a last ditch effort to assist in the event that i somehow win the lottery and have to use it. There might be multiple assailants, but it aint like the movies. Theyre probably not going to stick around circling you if youve got a gun. If 3 of them have guns, good luck having a high capacity magazine and taking out all 3.
Obviously id love to be packing a 50 round mag with a bulletproof vest and kevlat in an uparmoured vehicle. But with statistically unfeasible chance that i will ever encounter this situation, i think ill refrain.
Many cry stranger danger in our own country which is not at war. I carried around one mag in a war torn country where people were actively targeting people like me and i interacted with locals and ANA on a daily basis. Sometimes i ran around without a piece or a knife. This was inside the wire so a bit safer, but nonetheless people were killed and still targeted. Its life, your number might get pulled no matter how much you try to prepare yourself for it. Just accept it.
How much do you weigh?
I live in Southwest Missouri, and I really do live in a good part of town despite the problems. I was speaking with law enforcement and they said it really made no difference where a person lived in the city as crime was on the rise in every part.
Unfortunately, moving is not an option at the moment.
OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by Moomooboo:
JohnKSa's analysis illustrates how six is better than five, how seven is better than six, and so on, using his assumptions. Vary the assumptions as you see fit, and see what you think. I carry eight. That's about as low as I want to go.
Personally, I think he understates it some, considering that one is likely to fire three or four rounds in very rapid succession at the onset of an attack.
I have availed myself of training, I carry what some of the best trainers carry (because they have seen much more than I how it prefers day in and day out) and I shoot it, I stay out of stupid places, I keep my eyes and ears open, and I will go to any length to avoid conflict.
Good. That is as it should be.
No, one would not expect them to "stick around circling". The question is whether they will break off the attack. I'm not willing to bet my life on that hope.
Really? Fifty? Not I.
JohnKSa's analysis illustrates how six is better than five, how seven is better than six, and so on, using his assumptions. Vary the assumptions as you see fit, and see what you think. I carry eight. That's about as low as I want to go.
Personally, I think he understates it some, considering that one is likely to fire three or four rounds in very rapid succession at the onset of an attack.
Not I.
I have availed myself of training, I carry what some of the best trainers carry (because they have seen much more than I how it prefers day in and day out) and I shoot it, I stay out of stupid places, I keep my eyes and ears open, and I will go to any length to avoid conflict.
All valid reasons oldmarksman. I guess im just more willing to take the gamble and roll the dice with less rounds and a 9mm. I will tell you that i pack a higher cap mag and possinly higher caliber when i go to ghetto neighborhoods.
I cant omagine carrying a full size g19. I carried a g26 for a while and that felt fat. When it comes wintertime though id be more willing to carry a bigger gun165-170
Ive been as high as 215 (as much as it tastes good, beer is not your friend), and it made no difference as far as carrying the gun, fat or skinny, its easily done.
Best to be as fit as you can though, theres more to this than just pulling a trigger.