FBI Raids Liberty Dollar – Confiscates All Ron Paul Dollar
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DonR101395
New member
Well, if he truly believed what he's saying I would expect him to keep his capitol in silver. He was playing both sides of the fence to get rich and it may have backfired on him.
I do have issue with the way he presents the coins as "the new $10 silver coin" he is implying that it is legal tender from the govt. I would have no problem if he said something like "It's a $10 silver coin I produce" "It's $10 dollars worth of silver", but the way he says it when he passes one and the directions he gives to pass them IMO is fraud.
I also have no problem with people knowingly accepting other forms of currency as long as they understand that they are not govt/bank recognized tender.
I grew up in an area where it wasn't uncommon for people to trade two chickens for putting in a couple of screws to fix their step or give you a pig for helping bail their hay. Everybody understood they couldn't go try to deposit one of their chickens even though they were worth $3. I'm sure more than one person has tried to deposit "the new $10 silver piece" only to find out it's not accepted by the bank and then to find out that the local silver merchant will only give them $6 for it.
Just my $.02
Huchahucha
New member
So when are the FEDs going to arrest somebody? It is my understanding that they haven't yet. I don't know much about "Liberty Dollars" or von Nothaus, but I do know there is a description for a situation when somebody with lots of guns invades a person's property and takes millions of dollars in precious metals and anything else of value with total disregard for the owner. That is called armed robbery.
JuanCarlos
New member
Unless it's being used in the commission of a crime. Then it's called "gathering evidence." Though obviously if cleared (or probably even if not) I'd agree it should be returned.
I'm not a business owner either, but the entire business model of trying to create your own currency to compete with the government doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. There doesn't seem to be much potential for legitimate profit or utility, and there seems to be a lot of potential for fraud and/or other shady activities.
cloverleaf762
New member
If they thought they actually had Bernard on any kind of crime they would have had an arrest warrant to go with the multitude of search and seizure warrants. This is similar to what I got put though last year, and 13 years ago. They whine like a bunch of kids who don't like what the see to get a warrant, and then hope that they can actually find something wrong after the fact. That is the reason for taking the computers and records. If they start shouting about porn instead of finding proof of organized crime then we will all know they really screwed the pooch (again) on this one. Then Bernard will end up like me. Charges dropped because no crime was committed, and a great civil suit and tort claims.
cloverleaf762
New member
That is one point in particular I think will bite the feds bad. The legal tender law says LD has to accept FRN's if someone offers them in payment. To say that taking them is somehow some other crime is a catch 22 the law will not allow.
DonR101395
New member
Sorry if there was confusion on my part. I'm not talking about what charges they are charging him with or what they assert he has done. I just find it odd that he was supporting the very system he has made a life's work out of trying to get repealed. I understand that working strictly in silver would be difficult for him, but being a martyr isn't easy work.
You said a mouthful there, but again, how on earth do you procure silver by paying for it in silver? And how do you purchase silver coins using silver coins?
Simply not possible. To supplant a currency you have to replace it.
Getting back to the central topic, I just read over the entire affidavit twice. There is nothing at all in there establishing probable cause of mail fraud, wire fraud, or money laundering.
Doesn't that constitute an illegal search and seizure?
I'm not a lawyer and I'd love to get some thoughts from one on this.
Also, the affidavit admits that the coins tested just as advertized, there was meticulous auditing, and every "e-dollar" and "silver note" was indeed backed with correct contents in the vault.
All the books balanced too.
Again, not a lawyer but I think the Feds just screwed themselves on this deal.
Are you "supporting the system" of violations of the Second Amendment when you apply for a Class III tax stamp, a concealed-carry license, or an Illinois FOID permit-to-possess when you're a member of the NRA, GOA, or JPFO working to restore the fundamental right to armed self-defense of all Americans?
Actually I think the federales accomplished their intentions. Liberty Dollar is shut down. Assets have been confiscated. Pending business is suspended. Company cash flow stopped. Information to the public is constrained. Similar businesses such as Phoenix Dollar have ceased shipping bullion. Intimidating stories litter the webscape. A pesky presidential wannabe now has his credibility challenged. Federales now control information flow. Defendants and supporters are now (and this is most important) have to spend their own money for defense against charges which may or may not be reasonable WRT the law.
Some times you just gotta applaud good work when you see it.
waitone,
I'm not certain any charges are pending at all. As I read the affidavit he's not actually charged with the crimes justifying the S&S warrant.
The feds are going to have a heckuva time dealing with the flak from the disgruntled public who want the assets they paid for that the government just seized.
It appears that the only act of fraud prepetuated here is from the FBI. This is the same circumstances that caused heads to roll over at F-troop a while back.
As far as "controlling information", the links upstream suggest otherwise.
I'm not certain any charges are pending at all. As I read the affidavit he's not actually charged with the crimes justifying the S&S warrant.
The feds are going to have a heckuva time dealing with the flak from the disgruntled public who want the assets they paid for that the government just seized.
It appears that the only act of fraud prepetuated here is from the FBI. This is the same circumstances that caused heads to roll over at F-troop a while back.
As far as "controlling information", the links upstream suggest otherwise.
DonR101395
New member
Here is the difference I see in "supporting" those systems of failure; I'm don't and won't advocate or support breaking the law by manufacturing title 2 weapons without the proper paperwork as established by current laws. I do advocate trying to get those systems changed within the constraints of the law. I don't make my living by screeching they should be abolished and at the same time support them directly with the money I make from my screeching. IMO that is the definition of a hypocrite. Either he supports the system he professes fully and deals with the hard life it brings or he doesn't.
GS,
You bet it's hard to buy silver without dollars, not many brokers want chickens for payment on silver. That is the flaw in his system and why it won't work. Without govt backing of currency it has no legitimacy in the market place. The days of widespread bartering are gone with the days of the horse drawn carriage.
this has to be a joke.
wow! i thought about minting my own coins and using it to purchase some soda and gas. i think everyone should do it too! this is ridiculous! so they explained that this ron paul "coin" could be used for barter and trade (how to attempt to decieve a business). tell you what, for anyone out wanting to mint your own "money" and use it to purchase goods with, how about doing everyone a favor and try buying goods within your own home (and i do mean home as in within your own house). those ron paul coins are not currency. they are only worth their actual weight in precious metal and should be traded in the appropriate manner (...pawn shop?). and could someone explain to me how in the heck can you "buy" money? like someone said before - trade your fake federal currency for "real" ron paul dollars...please. makes me sick to my stomach.
wow! i thought about minting my own coins and using it to purchase some soda and gas. i think everyone should do it too! this is ridiculous! so they explained that this ron paul "coin" could be used for barter and trade (how to attempt to decieve a business). tell you what, for anyone out wanting to mint your own "money" and use it to purchase goods with, how about doing everyone a favor and try buying goods within your own home (and i do mean home as in within your own house). those ron paul coins are not currency. they are only worth their actual weight in precious metal and should be traded in the appropriate manner (...pawn shop?). and could someone explain to me how in the heck can you "buy" money? like someone said before - trade your fake federal currency for "real" ron paul dollars...please. makes me sick to my stomach.
And it now looks like the days of trying to pass off Ron Paul dollars as genuine US currency are long gone, too.
I can imagine a business owner whose employee had been suckered by this scam: the owner would possess non-legal currency that will not be accepted by the bank for deposit. So the business owner got ripped off: he provided goods and/or services in exchange for non-legal tender. The liberty dude may think that that his scheme to pass off the fake Ron Paul currency as legal US currency it is funny or cute or whatever, but I'll bet those who have been scammed didn't think that it was funny at all.
I know, I know, it's just another vast super-secret conspiracy by the FBI against Ron Paul, liberty, and fraud. I mean, freedom.
Edited to add: once again, an illegal scam with Ron Paul's face and name plastered all over it. I heard a pundit mention it on one of the Sunday morning political discussion shows; she was smirking when she mentioned it. It makes Ron Paul look like a Kook.
I can imagine a business owner whose employee had been suckered by this scam: the owner would possess non-legal currency that will not be accepted by the bank for deposit. So the business owner got ripped off: he provided goods and/or services in exchange for non-legal tender. The liberty dude may think that that his scheme to pass off the fake Ron Paul currency as legal US currency it is funny or cute or whatever, but I'll bet those who have been scammed didn't think that it was funny at all.
I know, I know, it's just another vast super-secret conspiracy by the FBI against Ron Paul, liberty, and fraud. I mean, freedom.
Edited to add: once again, an illegal scam with Ron Paul's face and name plastered all over it. I heard a pundit mention it on one of the Sunday morning political discussion shows; she was smirking when she mentioned it. It makes Ron Paul look like a Kook.
Latest article from the Wash. Post:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/11/19/if_its_good_enough_for_mickey.html
If It's Good Enough For Mickey, Why Not For Paul?
Pirate's booty valid at Walt Disney World. (Walt Disney World News).
News of a federal raid last week on a "sound money" outfit that is selling "Ron Paul Dollars," reported in Saturday's Post, is generating no end of quips in the blogosphere about what this development says about the Paul campaign's eye-popping recent fundraising success. Wags ask: How much of that record $4.2 million one-day haul that Paul collected earlier this month actually came in the form of dubloons imprinted with Paul's face, not U.S. legal tender?
But these jokes may be missing the point entirely. In fact, the lack of confidence that many Paul supporters have in U.S. currency may well be one reason why they are sending so many of their greenbacks to Paul's campaign, and thereby making his outsider libertarian bid for the Republican presidential nomination a force to be reckoned with. For sound-money supporters who fear a coming collapse in the value of the dollar, it makes eminent sense to send a few hundred dollars to the one candidate who is arguing for a monetary revolution, instead of simply watching that money rapidly crumble in value.
As Exhibit A, consider Peter Schiff, a financial adviser and sound-money advocate whose Connecticut firm, Euro Pacific Capital, specializes in investing clients' money in overseas assets to spare them what he argues will be a destructive decline in the value of the dollar followed by major deterioration in the U.S. economy. Schiff, who earlier this year published the investment guide "Crash Proof," recently sent out a "call to action" e-mail to the 60,000 people in his database urging them to send the $2,300 maximum-allowed contribution to Paul's campaign, describing this as one of the most productive uses for their rapidly fading U.S. dollars.
"If you are fortunate enough to be one of my clients, writing a $2,300 check should not be a problem. As I have likely made you tons of money over the years, here is an opportunity to donate some of it to a worthy cause. We have made our money by betting against the U.S and betting against the dollar. Giving $2,300 of our winnings to Ron Paul gives us the opportunity to bet ON America for a change. And it's a bet none of us can afford to lose, and the best part about it is that if we all make this bet together we can't lose," Schiff wrote in the e-mail. "My penchant for foreign investments has from time to time caused some of my critics to label me unpatriotic. While such attacks are clearly out of line, using some of our foreign profits to secure the election of Ron Paul goes a long way toward defusing such allegations. If you are not a client and you think $2,300 is a lot of money, it's not. In fact, if Ron Paul is not our next President, such a sum will be practically worthless by the end of the term of whoever is. So what do you have to lose? Just write the check and hope for the best."
In an interview today, Schiff said he expects that the federal raid on the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code had added more weight to his argument for giving to the Paul campaign. "The federal government is debasing the currency and then it comes in and punishes people who are doing something to protect themselves," he said. "The fact that these guys would come in and raid this organization shows how much they've got to fear from this. If more and more people start shunning the currency, it takes away from their power."
Norfed, which is based in Evansville, Ind., says that in the last decade it has put into circulation more than $20 million in "Liberty Dollars," metal medallions and paper certificates that it says are backed by silver and gold stored in Idaho. The group's founder and director, Bernard von NotHaus, says that federal agents seized more than 50,000 copper "Ron Paul Dollars" that the group was selling for $1, in addition to smaller amounts of silver Ron Paul Dollars that sold for $20, gold ones that went for $1,000 and platinum ones that went for $2,000. Agents also raided the Idaho minting company that makes the organization's medallions, seizing the huge pallets of silver and gold stored there, von NotHaus said.
The FBI and U.S. Attorney's office in western North Carolina, which is handling the case, have declined to comment on the raids, but an affidavit filed in Asheville earlier this month describes a two-year long undercover investigation of the group, based partly on evidence obtained by an informant who posed as someone wanting to become a regional associate for the group. The affidavit states the group is being investigated for federal violations including "uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal" and "making of possessing likenesses of coins." "The goal of Norfed is to undermine the United States goverment's financial systems by the issuance of a non-governmental competing currency," the affidavit states.
This argument met with ridicule over the weekend from the prolific on-line network of Ron Paul supporters and sound money advocates, some of whom sarcastically predicted that the feds would next be going after Disneyworld for selling "Disney Dollars" for use inside the amusement park. "Here is a Mickey Mouse coin issued by that criminal, separatist organization, the Walt Disney Corporation. Did someone fail Common Sense 101?" wrote one commenter on the Post's Web site, offering a link to an image of the offending Mickey dubloon. Wrote another, "With commemorative coins advertised in every Sunday newspaper, and given the Donald Duck silver coins sold at Disney Land, this is an obvious attack on Ron Paul, a legitimate Presidential candidate, by the Federal Government. I am going to respond by going to Ron Paul's web site, easily found with Google, and giving $100 today."
Lawrence White, an economics professor at the University of Missouri-St. Louis, said Liberty Dollar supporters had a point in charging overreaction on the part of the federal government. The question to be asked of Liberty Dollars, he said, is whether they make any sense for customers to buy -- while the certificates may offer a hedge for those convinced that the dollar will go in the tank, they come with the obvious downside that it is difficult to find others willing to accept the Liberty Dollars as a legal tender (though not in Berryville, Ark., where, according to the chamber of commerce, about half of the town's 80 merchants accept Liberty Dollars.)But that choice should be up to Americans to make, White said. "Unless they think people are being defrauded, it seems absurd to me," he said of the raid."The public ought to have a choice. Thank goodness we have an alternative to the post office."
A spokesman for the U.S. Mint responded to questions today by pointing reporters to the "consumer alerts" portion of its Web site, which carries warnings against using Liberty Dollars alongside warnings against mistaking as legitimate currency coins including: "Silver surfer" quarters created to help market the Fox movie "Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer"; a "Freedom Tower Silver Dollar" originating from the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands; and an "Elvis Presley 25th Anniversary Tennessee State Quarter Tribute."
A Paul campaign spokesman, Jesse Benton, today reiterated that the campaign has no connection with the Ron Paul Dollars (though supporters have taken pictures of grinning Paul next to the coins.) He said the campaign is seeing an "uptick" in Web site visits and contributions following reports of the raid. The real test of the campaign's fundraising strength, though, will come next month, when supporters are organizing another one-day fundraising "bomb" timed with the anniversary of the Boston Tea Party.
Von NotHaus is doing his part, urging on his Web site (which he says has seen a huge spike in traffic) that supporters respond to the raid by contributing to Paul, as well as urging them to sign up as part of a class-action lawsuit against the federal government over the coin seizures. He is biding his time at his home in Miami, expecting to be arrested and indicted sometime in the near future. In fact, he said today that he is kind of hoping that the government makes its move sooner than later, so eager is he to make a stand on the part of sound money theories.
"I'm sure I'm going to be arrested, and I'd be disappointed if I'm not," he said. "I want to get going. I think it's going to be exciting."
--Alec MacGillis
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/11/19/if_its_good_enough_for_mickey.html
If It's Good Enough For Mickey, Why Not For Paul?
Pirate's booty valid at Walt Disney World. (Walt Disney World News).
News of a federal raid last week on a "sound money" outfit that is selling "Ron Paul Dollars," reported in Saturday's Post, is generating no end of quips in the blogosphere about what this development says about the Paul campaign's eye-popping recent fundraising success. Wags ask: How much of that record $4.2 million one-day haul that Paul collected earlier this month actually came in the form of dubloons imprinted with Paul's face, not U.S. legal tender?
But these jokes may be missing the point entirely. In fact, the lack of confidence that many Paul supporters have in U.S. currency may well be one reason why they are sending so many of their greenbacks to Paul's campaign, and thereby making his outsider libertarian bid for the Republican presidential nomination a force to be reckoned with. For sound-money supporters who fear a coming collapse in the value of the dollar, it makes eminent sense to send a few hundred dollars to the one candidate who is arguing for a monetary revolution, instead of simply watching that money rapidly crumble in value.
As Exhibit A, consider Peter Schiff, a financial adviser and sound-money advocate whose Connecticut firm, Euro Pacific Capital, specializes in investing clients' money in overseas assets to spare them what he argues will be a destructive decline in the value of the dollar followed by major deterioration in the U.S. economy. Schiff, who earlier this year published the investment guide "Crash Proof," recently sent out a "call to action" e-mail to the 60,000 people in his database urging them to send the $2,300 maximum-allowed contribution to Paul's campaign, describing this as one of the most productive uses for their rapidly fading U.S. dollars.
"If you are fortunate enough to be one of my clients, writing a $2,300 check should not be a problem. As I have likely made you tons of money over the years, here is an opportunity to donate some of it to a worthy cause. We have made our money by betting against the U.S and betting against the dollar. Giving $2,300 of our winnings to Ron Paul gives us the opportunity to bet ON America for a change. And it's a bet none of us can afford to lose, and the best part about it is that if we all make this bet together we can't lose," Schiff wrote in the e-mail. "My penchant for foreign investments has from time to time caused some of my critics to label me unpatriotic. While such attacks are clearly out of line, using some of our foreign profits to secure the election of Ron Paul goes a long way toward defusing such allegations. If you are not a client and you think $2,300 is a lot of money, it's not. In fact, if Ron Paul is not our next President, such a sum will be practically worthless by the end of the term of whoever is. So what do you have to lose? Just write the check and hope for the best."
In an interview today, Schiff said he expects that the federal raid on the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code had added more weight to his argument for giving to the Paul campaign. "The federal government is debasing the currency and then it comes in and punishes people who are doing something to protect themselves," he said. "The fact that these guys would come in and raid this organization shows how much they've got to fear from this. If more and more people start shunning the currency, it takes away from their power."
Norfed, which is based in Evansville, Ind., says that in the last decade it has put into circulation more than $20 million in "Liberty Dollars," metal medallions and paper certificates that it says are backed by silver and gold stored in Idaho. The group's founder and director, Bernard von NotHaus, says that federal agents seized more than 50,000 copper "Ron Paul Dollars" that the group was selling for $1, in addition to smaller amounts of silver Ron Paul Dollars that sold for $20, gold ones that went for $1,000 and platinum ones that went for $2,000. Agents also raided the Idaho minting company that makes the organization's medallions, seizing the huge pallets of silver and gold stored there, von NotHaus said.
The FBI and U.S. Attorney's office in western North Carolina, which is handling the case, have declined to comment on the raids, but an affidavit filed in Asheville earlier this month describes a two-year long undercover investigation of the group, based partly on evidence obtained by an informant who posed as someone wanting to become a regional associate for the group. The affidavit states the group is being investigated for federal violations including "uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal" and "making of possessing likenesses of coins." "The goal of Norfed is to undermine the United States goverment's financial systems by the issuance of a non-governmental competing currency," the affidavit states.
This argument met with ridicule over the weekend from the prolific on-line network of Ron Paul supporters and sound money advocates, some of whom sarcastically predicted that the feds would next be going after Disneyworld for selling "Disney Dollars" for use inside the amusement park. "Here is a Mickey Mouse coin issued by that criminal, separatist organization, the Walt Disney Corporation. Did someone fail Common Sense 101?" wrote one commenter on the Post's Web site, offering a link to an image of the offending Mickey dubloon. Wrote another, "With commemorative coins advertised in every Sunday newspaper, and given the Donald Duck silver coins sold at Disney Land, this is an obvious attack on Ron Paul, a legitimate Presidential candidate, by the Federal Government. I am going to respond by going to Ron Paul's web site, easily found with Google, and giving $100 today."
Lawrence White, an economics professor at the University of Missouri-St. Louis, said Liberty Dollar supporters had a point in charging overreaction on the part of the federal government. The question to be asked of Liberty Dollars, he said, is whether they make any sense for customers to buy -- while the certificates may offer a hedge for those convinced that the dollar will go in the tank, they come with the obvious downside that it is difficult to find others willing to accept the Liberty Dollars as a legal tender (though not in Berryville, Ark., where, according to the chamber of commerce, about half of the town's 80 merchants accept Liberty Dollars.)But that choice should be up to Americans to make, White said. "Unless they think people are being defrauded, it seems absurd to me," he said of the raid."The public ought to have a choice. Thank goodness we have an alternative to the post office."
A spokesman for the U.S. Mint responded to questions today by pointing reporters to the "consumer alerts" portion of its Web site, which carries warnings against using Liberty Dollars alongside warnings against mistaking as legitimate currency coins including: "Silver surfer" quarters created to help market the Fox movie "Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer"; a "Freedom Tower Silver Dollar" originating from the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands; and an "Elvis Presley 25th Anniversary Tennessee State Quarter Tribute."
A Paul campaign spokesman, Jesse Benton, today reiterated that the campaign has no connection with the Ron Paul Dollars (though supporters have taken pictures of grinning Paul next to the coins.) He said the campaign is seeing an "uptick" in Web site visits and contributions following reports of the raid. The real test of the campaign's fundraising strength, though, will come next month, when supporters are organizing another one-day fundraising "bomb" timed with the anniversary of the Boston Tea Party.
Von NotHaus is doing his part, urging on his Web site (which he says has seen a huge spike in traffic) that supporters respond to the raid by contributing to Paul, as well as urging them to sign up as part of a class-action lawsuit against the federal government over the coin seizures. He is biding his time at his home in Miami, expecting to be arrested and indicted sometime in the near future. In fact, he said today that he is kind of hoping that the government makes its move sooner than later, so eager is he to make a stand on the part of sound money theories.
"I'm sure I'm going to be arrested, and I'd be disappointed if I'm not," he said. "I want to get going. I think it's going to be exciting."
--Alec MacGillis
The difference between Mickey Mouse coins, disney dollars, chuck e cheese coins, and some game places is that their money can only be used at that place of business. It is non-negotiable and has no value except at the place of purchase.
Liberty Dollars were claiming that you could use their money anywhere and that is where the problem lays IMHO. The comparrisons are not valid.
Liberty Dollars were claiming that you could use their money anywhere and that is where the problem lays IMHO. The comparrisons are not valid.
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