Kevin Rohrer
New member
You never need a hi-capacity pistol for SD carry, unless you are John McClain retaking the Nakatomi Building from Hans Gruber. For the rest of us, 9 (1911 in .45ACP) to 11-rounds (BHP in .40 cal) is more than enough.
Do we need Hi-Capacity in everyday Carry?
- Thread starter Brit
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man, that blows, I am sorry
OldMarksman
Staff
Usually.
I could not agree more with your well written and well though out post!Of course! If there are no rounds present in the firearm it is something of major importance if the firearm is used defensively!
What one cannot do is equate a certain number of rounds with effectiveness.
One cannot truthfully say X number of rounds is enough. Because it simply isn't true all the time. For every example of when X number of rounds got the job done, you can find examples where that same number of rounds did NOT get the job done, and you can find examples where someone had X number of rounds in the gun, and only needed 1 or even none to successfully defend themselves.
Number of rounds held by the gun ALONE is not an important factor, likewise bullet design or "lethality of bullet impact zone" (which I'm not sure precisely what you mean by that..)
The purpose of defensive use of a firearm is to STOP a deadly threat. It is not to kill the attacker, but to make them STOP. IF they happen to die as a result of being stopped, that's their karma.
Due to the complexities of our legal system, and our language, stating that your intent was to kill (not stop, not defend yourself, but kill your attacker) could turn an otherwise valid self defense shooting into you being prosecuted for murder or manslaughter.
In this regard, how lethal a projectile or the bullet impact zone is, is irrelevant, what is important is how effective it is at STOPPING an attacker.
As a corollary we could also say that just because you have X number of rounds in your defensive pistol, that does not mean you have to spend all the rounds to STOP a threat.
As you say, as civilians we are legally only allowed to use enough lethal force to stop the threat, NOT TO KILL. Military duty is a different issue.
Thus the discussion should focus on how many rounds are necessary to stop a threat (by incapacitating it, or causing an attacker to flee or desist).
My EDC holds 9 + 1 in the chamber, I think this is enough (unless I ever have to face a whole gang of "Zetas").
My post #258.
A group, highly trained, were attached to the NYPD (The stakeout squad) a long time ago, formed to combat murders committed by criminals in robberies, in the City. Headshots were taken, from cover. Handguns, Ithica 37 short shotguns, and I believe a .30 calibre carbine? It worked.
I wonder how many of this group were prosecuted for Manslaughter, or murder?
As they hid and took headshots, shots that from an average distance of 7M?
(A guess) Shots that were intended not to STOP! But to kill, and any survivors to flee. (well seeing your criminal associates head blown apart by a 12 gauge slug would in most cases cause beat feet to be an automatic and sensible reaction?)
The recruitment of these NYPD Officers was on average, were young, single, and if possible, hunters? Not sure what reason they were disbanded?
Do they still have a swat team? not called that, EST maybe? The carbines had 15 round magazines, a military capacity weapon. (early hi-capacity trend?)
A group, highly trained, were attached to the NYPD (The stakeout squad) a long time ago, formed to combat murders committed by criminals in robberies, in the City. Headshots were taken, from cover. Handguns, Ithica 37 short shotguns, and I believe a .30 calibre carbine? It worked.
I wonder how many of this group were prosecuted for Manslaughter, or murder?
As they hid and took headshots, shots that from an average distance of 7M?
(A guess) Shots that were intended not to STOP! But to kill, and any survivors to flee. (well seeing your criminal associates head blown apart by a 12 gauge slug would in most cases cause beat feet to be an automatic and sensible reaction?)
The recruitment of these NYPD Officers was on average, were young, single, and if possible, hunters? Not sure what reason they were disbanded?
Do they still have a swat team? not called that, EST maybe? The carbines had 15 round magazines, a military capacity weapon. (early hi-capacity trend?)
Tactical Jackalope
New member
Crystal ball game is strong!
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I have to disagree. First, not all 1911s hold 9 rounds in .45 ACP. You are assuming that the gun has 8-round magazines and that it's loaded 8+1. But the original 1911 magazines only held 7 rounds, and many people (including myself) consider 8-round, flush-fit magazines to be less reliable and thus something to be avoided.Kevin Rohrer said:
You are also assuming a full-size or Commander 1911. My Colt Officers ACP magazines hold 6 rounds, so the best I can do without a reload is 6+1.
Frankly, I don't see a huge difference between 7+1 and 6+1. I carry a spare magazine. I started doing that after the Trolley Square mall shooting in Salt Lake City a few years ago. The person who initially engaged the shooter and pinned him down until the cavalry arrived was an off-duty police officer from another jurisdiction. His personal carry gun was a Kimber subcompact that held 6+1. He only had the magazine that was in the gun and, when he was interviewed afterwards, he said he really wished he had had at least one reload.
I firmly believe that you should carry what you are comfortable with. If that is a 15+1 with 3 backup mags, then so be it. If that is a 5 shot J frame by itself, then so be it.
I carry Shields in 9 and 45 and Mod 2's in 9 and 45. Shields are single stack and Mod 2's are double stack. It depends on the area I am headed for me to decide which firearm to put in my waistband. I hardly ever carry extra magazines.
Joe
I carry Shields in 9 and 45 and Mod 2's in 9 and 45. Shields are single stack and Mod 2's are double stack. It depends on the area I am headed for me to decide which firearm to put in my waistband. I hardly ever carry extra magazines.
Joe
Walt Sherrill
New member
Brit said:
As I'm sure you understand, things HAVE changed over the years.
Nowadays, if unarmed persons are shot by a "stakeout squad" and one or more of those persons end up with multiple rounds in the back (apparently done while running away), then one or more members of such a squad might be prosecuted for manslaughter or murder. But if those shot (or killed) were armed and not running away, manslaughter or murder prosecutions would be much less likely.
Walt.
I think in a stakeout, with hidden Officers present in some cases where short distances were the order of the day? If headshots were available? They would be taken.
A friend of mine, a Constable, in 41 Division, close to where I lived in Scarborough, Ont. Toronto. Tony was in court, he was giving evidence, on the arrest.
"Why were you not carrying your baton?" "Tony said he had left in the sun in the Squad car, and it bent into a big curve" So he was carrying his big D 5 cell flashlight.
The defence Lawyer asked how hard he struck his Client on the top of his head.
"Just absolutely as hard as I could!" The judge had no problem with that answer.
I think in a stakeout, with hidden Officers present in some cases where short distances were the order of the day? If headshots were available? They would be taken.
A friend of mine, a Constable, in 41 Division, close to where I lived in Scarborough, Ont. Toronto. Tony was in court, he was giving evidence, on the arrest.
"Why were you not carrying your baton?" "Tony said he had left in the sun in the Squad car, and it bent into a big curve" So he was carrying his big D 5 cell flashlight.
The defence Lawyer asked how hard he struck his Client on the top of his head.
"Just absolutely as hard as I could!" The judge had no problem with that answer.
armoredman
New member
That has a legal term - murder.Brit said:
Originally Posted by Brit
No one mentioned a coup de grâce on a downed assailant!
That has a legal term - murder.
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I did notice the time of your post? Someone else who can't sleep well?
I looked back on some of your posts. Saw your birthday one, you have just seen 50 YOA! A mere whippersnapper said this 84-year-old!
Most Police Depts teach headshots nowadays. In extreme close quarters.
It just makes sense.
In holstering a defensive pistol, prior to exiting your abode, in the AM. Where you live is a factor, your mode of transport, lots of known, and not known factors control our lives. As so many have said, "It depends!"
As we, the law-abiding, own vehicles, so do criminals!
So they can be where you are, at any given time of the day or night.
One tool I have used for several years now, Cell phone stays in a pants pocket, Blue Ant earpiece, that weighs nothing, hooks onto my left ear!
Phone rings, I say answer, and it does.
All around people walk and drive with Cell phones in hand. (now illegal in FL)
Driving that is. Totally oblivious. I see several people who do not carry a spare magazine? In this post. In my mind that is an error, as most faults that beset semi-automatic pistols, stem from magazine problems? Carrying a spare one is a no brainer, yes? As we have no plans to do anything later, I am off back to bed. My bedside table has no Glock decoration! Good night!
No one mentioned a coup de grâce on a downed assailant!
That has a legal term - murder.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did notice the time of your post? Someone else who can't sleep well?
I looked back on some of your posts. Saw your birthday one, you have just seen 50 YOA! A mere whippersnapper said this 84-year-old!
Most Police Depts teach headshots nowadays. In extreme close quarters.
It just makes sense.
In holstering a defensive pistol, prior to exiting your abode, in the AM. Where you live is a factor, your mode of transport, lots of known, and not known factors control our lives. As so many have said, "It depends!"
As we, the law-abiding, own vehicles, so do criminals!
So they can be where you are, at any given time of the day or night.
One tool I have used for several years now, Cell phone stays in a pants pocket, Blue Ant earpiece, that weighs nothing, hooks onto my left ear!
Phone rings, I say answer, and it does.
All around people walk and drive with Cell phones in hand. (now illegal in FL)
Driving that is. Totally oblivious. I see several people who do not carry a spare magazine? In this post. In my mind that is an error, as most faults that beset semi-automatic pistols, stem from magazine problems? Carrying a spare one is a no brainer, yes? As we have no plans to do anything later, I am off back to bed. My bedside table has no Glock decoration! Good night!
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Center-mass, body shot, head shot, "double tap," "triple tap," "Mozambique," whatever terminology is used, most law enforcement agencies today as well as most reputable "civilian" self-defense firearms trainers teach shooting to stop the threat. Irrespective of where they teach you to put the shot(s), the [expressed] intention is supposed to be to stop the threat, not to kill the adversary. Obviously, this is taught this way for liability reasons. If a shoot is in any way questionable and ends up in court, it comes across to a jury much better to say something like, "I shot to end the threat and, unfortunately, one of my shots was fatal" rather than, "I shot him in the snot locker because that was the best way to end his worthless life."BRIT said:
Irrespective of the above, you used the term "coup de grâce on a downed assailant." That's a different story from making a head shot or a triple tap/Mozambique as the initial engagement. There are a great many trainers today who teach the triple tap (two shots to center-mass and one to the head) as an initial approach, due to the possibility of a perp wearing body armor. If you were trained that way, and if you used that in an armed confrontation, it's arguably defensible to testify that you resorted to a triple tap because that's what your training called for.
That is NOT a coup de grâce.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup de grâce
Merriam Webster said:
An example of a coup de grâce on a downed assailant might be Jerome Ersland, the Oklahoma pharmacist who shot a would be robber in his store, pursued a second robber out of the store, then returned to the store, switched guns, and shot the wounded first robber five more times. Ersland was convicted of murder and is currently in prison. It is almost universally agreed that his first shot or shots was/were justified and that, if he had left it at that, he would have been regarded as a hero.
But he didn't leave it at that. He returned and administered FIVE coups de grâce to the downed assailant. That's what a coup de grâce is -- it's a follow-up blow or shot after the engagement has ended, it is not an initial blow, stroke, or shot administered in the course of the engagement. The former is defensible; the latter is murder. Making your initial shot a head shot when engaged at close quarters is not the same thing as a coup de grâce.
OldMarksman
Staff
Yes, excellent!
When teaching LEOs I did state that body armour was being sold to criminals. Maybe in a roundabout way, via a second party?
There are two alternative areas to direct your handgun fire, the head, and the depth of a plastic water bottle under the chin. Should clear a ballistic vest.
And at the belt buckle, and lower. Shooting below a vehicle (No the ejected cartridge case will not bounce back into the chamber! (a question asked more than once!) lie on your side, hold pistol parallel to the deck.
If you can do this with as much of your body behind the front, or rear wheel as possible. Safety glasses are not a bad piece of kit to wear at work.
A projectile, or shrapnel to a foot or ankle, tends to drop the recipient to good old mother earth. But not always.
The Israelis tend to think black tip sub gun ammo would penetrate some vests when fired from MP5s? Does everyone know that since going from Browning High Power pistols to Glock 9mm Pistols, they have one in the pipe now?
Same inside the pants holsters, and double mag pouches.
Bit of trivia... When the El Al Security Officers went from BHP to Glock 17s, they arrived in cargo at Toronto Airport, sans magazines, 10 rounds were the maximum allowed in Canada. And they did not want to request special dispensation. Glocks in, BHP out on same flight!
Nice pistols, leather in pants holsters, and mag pouches. No magazines!
As they knew I had worked for Glock GA for a while, I got the panic call.
"We can not jump ahead of orders that have already been placed!"
My buddy in Smyrna gave an alternative. They would make a gift of these magazines (ten rounders) my name on the paperwork? a gift to the Glock Sports Foundation (guess on the amount!) would be forthcoming.
The first ten-round magazine was not the ideal solution, could be altered to fit more rounds. El Al, New York had no such problems.
Also well stated Aquila Blanca!
There are two alternative areas to direct your handgun fire, the head, and the depth of a plastic water bottle under the chin. Should clear a ballistic vest.
And at the belt buckle, and lower. Shooting below a vehicle (No the ejected cartridge case will not bounce back into the chamber! (a question asked more than once!) lie on your side, hold pistol parallel to the deck.
If you can do this with as much of your body behind the front, or rear wheel as possible. Safety glasses are not a bad piece of kit to wear at work.
A projectile, or shrapnel to a foot or ankle, tends to drop the recipient to good old mother earth. But not always.
The Israelis tend to think black tip sub gun ammo would penetrate some vests when fired from MP5s? Does everyone know that since going from Browning High Power pistols to Glock 9mm Pistols, they have one in the pipe now?
Same inside the pants holsters, and double mag pouches.
Bit of trivia... When the El Al Security Officers went from BHP to Glock 17s, they arrived in cargo at Toronto Airport, sans magazines, 10 rounds were the maximum allowed in Canada. And they did not want to request special dispensation. Glocks in, BHP out on same flight!
Nice pistols, leather in pants holsters, and mag pouches. No magazines!
As they knew I had worked for Glock GA for a while, I got the panic call.
"We can not jump ahead of orders that have already been placed!"
My buddy in Smyrna gave an alternative. They would make a gift of these magazines (ten rounders) my name on the paperwork? a gift to the Glock Sports Foundation (guess on the amount!) would be forthcoming.
The first ten-round magazine was not the ideal solution, could be altered to fit more rounds. El Al, New York had no such problems.
Also well stated Aquila Blanca!
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armoredman
New member
Well, Brit, I work graveyard, and I'm the shift commander, so not really a problem with posting times, as long as nothing is going on. Second, I've been qualifying with MY Dept for over 17 years and never once did we ever train for head shots. I will say the new POST does have that as an option, but we do not use it. Not sure how the age difference adds up, but you disregarded the original statement, as so eloquently described by Aquila Blanca - coup de grace is murder. As for spare mags and not be oblivious, yes, I see that and yes I carry spares, even thought my standard magazine is over 10 rounds. I like flexibility and options, which is why I also usually have at least one pocket knife, multi tool, flashlight, home made trauma kit, and sometimes a second sidearm that uses the same magazines.
Not all the time, but sometimes - we make enemies in this line of work, sometimes for life.
Not all the time, but sometimes - we make enemies in this line of work, sometimes for life.
You are smarter than I! You are getting paid to be awake.
(coup de grace is murder.) it certainly is, but I have never, and would not ever state a shot fired "To finish some one-off" is allowed, my stated aiming parts were in my last post, and the reasons given. That range you were shooting steel on, I have shot on, at an IALEFI conference, I think, the backstop was a Mountain, real safe backstop.
I liked your loadout. As an old chap, mine is much simpler. Glock 43X and a spare mag, on the offside, Surefire flashlight (Torch in the UK) also in belt pouch. Benchmade folder. Tiny multi-tool. As a none LEO, never felt I needed a second pistol. Your stated second pistol reason, good idea.
My original reason behind this post, how little or how much capacity was a good idea, here in the USA, my final destination, with my second, and final Lady. Of 26 years.
To have the ability to holster a pistol, for protection, is a unique and great privilege God bless the Second amendment. Thank you for your service. I am off back to kip.
(coup de grace is murder.) it certainly is, but I have never, and would not ever state a shot fired "To finish some one-off" is allowed, my stated aiming parts were in my last post, and the reasons given. That range you were shooting steel on, I have shot on, at an IALEFI conference, I think, the backstop was a Mountain, real safe backstop.
I liked your loadout. As an old chap, mine is much simpler. Glock 43X and a spare mag, on the offside, Surefire flashlight (Torch in the UK) also in belt pouch. Benchmade folder. Tiny multi-tool. As a none LEO, never felt I needed a second pistol. Your stated second pistol reason, good idea.
My original reason behind this post, how little or how much capacity was a good idea, here in the USA, my final destination, with my second, and final Lady. Of 26 years.
To have the ability to holster a pistol, for protection, is a unique and great privilege God bless the Second amendment. Thank you for your service. I am off back to kip.
How about...walk into a bank..see guy at counter with gun out, pointing at teller..you walk up, not saying a word, and put a round behind his ear, killing him...??
Execution?
Maybe this needs to be in 'insurance' thread...
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