Do we need Hi-Capacity in everyday Carry?

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Tactical Jackalope said:
I don't see it in the pic, but I do see the safety. I wanted to ask you about that.

When it's not being engaged, does it lay flat against the pistol? When does it pop up to be pushed down?
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It lays flat against the pistol. It is basically like one of those after market vanity back plates, but this one has a hinge at the top of it.

When you pull on the trigger, the firing pin moves rearward, and as it does it pushes "the gadget" back. So by putting pressure on "the gadget" backplate with your thumb, you prevent the trigger from being pushed: basically the pressure on your thumb is fighting the pressure of your trigger finger on the trigger.

And of course if something was inadvertedly depressing the trigger as your reholster, you would feel that pressure against your thumb.


When trigger not engaged, "the gadget" is flush with the slide:
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Thumb on gadget while depressing the trigger, only for demonstration purposes. In practice the pressure of the thumb would keep the trigger from being depressed:
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Reholstering technique for AIWB:
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hahaha, mine goes up only when I press the trigger!! : )

Now seriously the dingus is flush against the slide as in the first pictures I posted of my pistol above. It is only when you press the trigger that the dingus goes up. Installing it is a piece of cake too, I have zero mechanical ability and I was able to do it in 3 minutes.

I edited the picture with a couple of arrows to see if it makes sense. Video would be perfect but I don't think it can be done in this forum.
 
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Lance Thomas!

Interesting to read how he progressed from one pistol on a shelf to multiple pistols around his shop, to a holstered hi-cap pistol. Sig?

The time it took him to reach the conclusion of carrying? Lucky he did not end up dead, yes? His biggest victory, get the hell out of his shop on a main street!

He ended up mail sending his goods, I believe.

My Son one time called me at 10 AM? Can I go to a Jewelry Store, on the main road, close to the Florida Mall, in Orlando?

The gist of the panic, all his armed Security Officers were working posts, none free. Dad not so much. Why this situation came about, this store had a Hood directly behind its locations, rear parking lot. Each evening, when the shop closed, hood rats were congregating sat on hoods of their vehicles, or on the tailgates of pick up trucks. And sprouting filthy words at the young attractive young Lady Salespersons as they went to their cars.

The top salesperson said, "No armed Guard tomorrow, we are not coming to work!" So I get the call, (we, my Son and I had a waiver, Shotgun for when we did vehicle escorts) I thought this sounds like shotgun waiver territory?

Did not want to worry my Son? So I never asked permission!

So my ex Sheriffs black shotgun, with the word Security on each side of the one-piece stock, purchased for $87.00 from B&H. Encased in a gun case.
Into the Managers Office, behind the door.
Dressed all in black, the uniform of the day, SECURITY in big letters on the back. Glock 19, two magazines.

We had a powwow, prior to leaving.

"I will leave first, walk to the full depth of the parking lot. Staff will leave next, enter vehicles, lock doors start engines" I will walk back to meet Manager, he locking up, escort him to his vehicle, when he leaves, you all follow him to the lights. Closest first. I go home.

Sure enough, the audience arrived, store doors locked, expensive stuff on carts, in a big vault. Night lights on.

I left, pumped shotgun! High port, marched across the parking lot! Stood at port arms, facing store! Sounded like the start of Le Mans! Engines starting, tires squealing, gone!
And they never came back. I had an audience of one, one night, Highway Patrol Vehicle, doing his reports? In the parking lot. Did my little act? He never looked up! Once. My Son never got a phone call, not one.

The gig lasted 6 months. Still got that old shotgun, sits in my safe. Six rounds of double O Buckshot. Never used it since.
 
Pistoler0, ooooh...Now I see. Okay, that makes sense now.
Thanks for that. I remember Jeff Bloovman told me to pick one up a while ago and I brushed it off. But now I'm interested and of course, they're sold out. Seem to be out of production.
 
There is no way to determine in advance how many rounds one would "need" in the event of a violent encounter.

How "comfortable" one may "feel" with a given number is of no value, unless it is based on objective facts and analysis.

Do NOT consider averages--means, modes, or medians. Median numbers only cover 50% of the incidents.

Now suppose for a moment that one could, through simulation and realistic assumptions regarding handgun wounding effectiveness, reasonably predict that a certain number of rounds will suffice in the vast majority of incidents. Would that be the magic number?

NO! One would want a safety margin. When engineers design a bridge, a roof, etc. ,they make the best assessment they can of the dynamic loads that the stucture will experience. But they do not design to that. They add a safety margin--a considerable one.

So, if one could somehow divine that the magic number is six rounds, one might prudently decide on nine.

That happens to be near the low end of my preference. And no, I do not "feel comfortable' with nine, or with any number, for that matter. Carrying a gun and being able to use it may not suffice.

Each person must make his or her own assessment....but first, they should try their hand in a realistic defensive training class---and FoF training, if possible.

AND they should lean what they can about handgun wounding effectiveness, and forget about screen fiction, water jugs, and "one shot stops".

Why not 17+1?

Not for me, Too bulky, and too much weight.

One has to balance carryability, best with smaller guns, and shootablity, better with larger guns. Somewhere close to the sweet spot, one should be able to find a good semi-auto with adequate capacity.
 
Nothing changes as fast as what-ifs! Visiting my wife's youngest here in Sacramento. And today going grocery shopping, a fairly reasonable supermarket. Seeing several men, with concealable type shirts? Checking for printing? No way. No one appeared to be carrying. In Orlando, every other Guy, had a folding knife in his right side pants pocket?
Not one (except me!) small children would smile, and say hi? So different than home.

I played a trick on a couple (their late fifties?) my wife was close to them picking meat.
I said to my wife, P don't be so aggressive, give people some space!

Well, this guy says "No problem she is fine" backing my wife up. Hilarious!
 
Pistoler0 said:
"" Interesting in that I just did something similar(not chopped but)...bought a -19 magazine for my -G26, got one of those sleeves and now have a 'short barrel' G19(15+1)..when clothes allow or a 11+1, or a 10+1..versatile.. ""

Yep, USNRet93 (in the beautiful and extremely anti-gun republic of Boulder) versatility is the idea. BTW I am close to you, in Evergreen (near Red Rocks). I go to Boulder often to do research in the library on campus.

My reason for going with the longer slide is that my pistol, if using 45 Super ammo, is legal for big game hunting in CO (we need at least a 4" barrel). I don't actually hunt with the pistol, but I have used it to finish off an animal felled by my bow (during rifle season) or by my rifle. In CO it would be illegal to do that with a 9mm and the pistol must be legal for big game hunting. It also does double duty as a woods defense gun.

My significant other limits me to 1 gun (I have convinced her that should mean 1 pistol, 1 rifle and 1 shotgun) and that's why I needed to have a versatile set-up that is good for everything.

The chopped G21 conceals great. I carry it AIWB for full concealment at work, and that's why a put a thumb safety and Tau's "the gadget" on it. And since the barrel is full length, it is also good for competition.

Jack of all trades (master of none) pistol.
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Boulder has that rap but isn't really any more 'anti gun' than the rest of the state.

Boulder is an open carry town(Denver city is NOT), has a GREAT gun store, is serviced by a GREAT Sheriff's department (my CCWP in 3 weeks)..I have not seen or heard of any anti gun anything since I returned in 1993..

I know 3 Boulder PD guys who are anything but 'antigun'...
 
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We take an extremely unlikely event - the use (not display) of deadly force. We then cherry pick out specific case studies (so and so needed 40 rounds) and build our plans to those even though they fall in the extreme tails of a T-test while hiding behind some words and basic observations in statistics. I’m well aware of what mean and median are. We give the allusion that doing so assures success


I want to assure success. What’s the magic number of rounds of ammunition I need on me to guarantee I survive should the legitimate use of deadly force arises?
 
We take an extremely unlikely event - the use (not display) of deadly force.
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How likely the event may be has nothing whatsoever to do with how many rounds may be needed in the event of occurrence.

We then cherry pick out specific case studies (so and so needed 40 rounds) and build our plans ...
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"We"? Not I. Too many variables, too few data.

Better to employ simulation and analysis.

...while hiding behind some words and basic observations in statistics.
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Hiding?

We give the allusion that doing so assures success
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I have never come across anyone who has attempted that.

What’s the magic number of rounds of ammunition I need on me to guarantee I survive should the legitimate use of deadly force arises?
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There is no number of rounds that will so guarantee.

There are other very important considerations.
 
Would not common sense indicate that the actual amount of rounds, present in the firearm
prior to a reload would be the major factor in surviving a self-defence episode?

Followed by the bullet design, and lethality of the bullet impact zone?
 
A factor. Perhaps. I’m not sure when major becomes the correct term. There are a lot of factors before round count - if there wasn’t the PM30 would likely be a benchmark. There is also a limit. For instance even the most “margin of error” argument doesn’t argue for 1000 rounds.
 
Would not common sense indicate that the actual amount of rounds, present in the firearm
prior to a reload would be the major factor in surviving a self-defence episode?
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Of course! If there are no rounds present in the firearm it is something of major importance if the firearm is used defensively! :rolleyes:

What one cannot do is equate a certain number of rounds with effectiveness.

One cannot truthfully say X number of rounds is enough. Because it simply isn't true all the time. For every example of when X number of rounds got the job done, you can find examples where that same number of rounds did NOT get the job done, and you can find examples where someone had X number of rounds in the gun, and only needed 1 or even none to successfully defend themselves.

Number of rounds held by the gun ALONE is not an important factor, likewise bullet design or "lethality of bullet impact zone" (which I'm not sure precisely what you mean by that..)

The purpose of defensive use of a firearm is to STOP a deadly threat. It is not to kill the attacker, but to make them STOP. IF they happen to die as a result of being stopped, that's their karma.

Due to the complexities of our legal system, and our language, stating that your intent was to kill (not stop, not defend yourself, but kill your attacker) could turn an otherwise valid self defense shooting into you being prosecuted for murder or manslaughter.

In this regard, how lethal a projectile or the bullet impact zone is, is irrelevant, what is important is how effective it is at STOPPING an attacker.
 
USNRet93 said:
Boulder has that rap but isn't really any more 'anti gun' than the rest of the state.

Boulder is an open carry town(Denver city is NOT), has a GREAT gun store, is serviced by a GREAT Sheriff's department (my CCWP in 3 weeks)..I have not seen or heard of any anti gun anything since I returned in 1993..

I know 3 Boulder PD guys who are anything but 'antigun'...
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But they still have a city ordinance banning magazines with a capacity larger than 10 rounds no? I know that Colorado limits mag capacity to 15, but Boulder went even further. Maybe the PD and Sheriff do not actively enforce those?

And if I am not mistaken they had a city ordinance banning "assault weapons" but State law preempted that.

Maybe I am wrong on this IDK, but yes, the city does have an "anti" reputation. Boulder is more than just the city, the county is very rural and mountainous and I am sure there is much less of an "anti" mentality in places like Netherlands.
 
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44 AMP. below.

Quote. Number of rounds held by the gun ALONE is not an important factor, likewise bullet design or "lethality of bullet impact zone" (which I'm not sure precisely what you mean by that.) Shooting to stop?

Two rounds, centre chest I taught, (a Double Tap) Was quite often lethal. Especially with 9mm 147g hollow points. Shooting to stop was bandied about by defence lawyers when badgering Police Officers in Court.

"Did you not shoot to wound, but to kill, my Client, who was not even charged with a crime at that moment!"

"Yes I did, damm right I did, he had just shot my partner of 5 years, in the face, with a shotgun!" Remember, this was Canada before North America became bleeding hearts.

The word Lethality became a non-starter when headshots came into Police training.

I personally came under scrutiny, when I introduced the last two shots of my test being headshots! That was in 1980. The Staff Sgt. in charge of firearms training in Toronto, stated emphatically that the Student who delivered that headshot would be charged with murder, me also, for teaching him.

That died on the vine after they taught headshots from 2004. Toronto PD.
 
Gentlemen -- This is the Semi-Automatic Handguns discussion area, not the Training and Tactics or the Law and Civil Rights discussion area. The topic of discussion is capacity. Let's stay on topic, please.
 
No one mentioned a coup de grâce on a downed assailant! Back in 1980, capacity was a huge factor in Police circles. As only revolvers were carried.
My training program was tied to capacity, and smooth reloads. In order to emphasise the way an S&W cylinder rotated, and to turn a test score into a number of rounds into a test result. Three full cylinders, = 18, first 6 rounds loaded by hand, next two, speed loaders. Last two, loaded by hand. Making twenty.

The SAS Canada target centre block was 6" across, wide that is. And 18" deep. All rounds to impact that area, at 5 points, equalled 100 points, or 100%.

I might respectively point out that capacity and lethality are twin concerns of any individual, who carries a handgun. Otherwise, why add sights?

A group who I rented my range too, for 16 years, came normally once a month. (Location was Canada) Armed with Browning High Powers. No idea what exercises, or were they train nowadays. But the last exercise of the day, 3 rounds at 15M, the target was suspended from a wire, not a target stand. Advance at speed, use a rather strange stopping motion, the range floor was smooth concrete. To avoid falling.

Last round fired at a 4" ballon, taped to the deck. It was just a static exercise, that emphasized extreme conditions, somewhere.

A group, highly trained, were attached to the NYPD (The stakeout squad) a long time ago, formed to combat murders committed by criminals in robberies, in the City. Headshots were taken, from cover. Handguns, Ithica 37 short shotguns, and I believe a .30 calibre carbine? It worked.

Back to the originally formed blog, discussing capacity I started a lot of pages ago. In my own case, my Pistol of choice, a Glock 19 4th gen.

Has shrunk to that fabulous 9mm Glock 43X for my EDC, night sights, and a spare magazine! 11 rounds. Enough? I don't know.
 
Would not common sense indicate that the actual amount of rounds, present in the firearm prior to a reload would be the major factor in surviving a self-defence episode?
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As 44AMP put it in his example, it would only be a "major" facor if it proved inadequate. An empty gun? Yes. A derringer? Could well be, but at some number, round count would not usually prove a major factor

Followed by the bullet design,....
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Penetration is important, and bullet design is one of the facors that drive penetration.

....and lethality of the bullet impact zone?
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.No.

Relatively few people die from handgun wounds, and those who do may still be able to deliver a lethal shot or a lethal strike with an edged weapon before they expire. That would not help with the defender's survival.

The "major factors", if avoidance and deescalation do not work, are (1) shooting before it is too late and (2) shooting effectively.
 
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