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Define Loaded Gun
- Thread starter BarryLee
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If that's the case, then you could carry any single action revolver or any semi auto with a manual safety.=)The state of Utah defines a loaded gun as being a gun which requires only a single mechanical action for it to fire.
Anyone still feeling argumentive needs to go re-read Tom Servo's post on page 4.
"I didn't think it was loaded/chambered" is the immediate response to an ND or some fool woth a round in the pipe or loaded mag in the gun. Someone wanting to argue semantics or what they learned at boot at that point isn't going to get very far.
"I didn't think it was loaded/chambered" is the immediate response to an ND or some fool woth a round in the pipe or loaded mag in the gun. Someone wanting to argue semantics or what they learned at boot at that point isn't going to get very far.
Because there are certain circumstances when the person handling the gun, and immediate parties can assume that it is not......
But in general, I do agree with your point, and that should be the overriding understanding.....except for when a gun the gun is in use as an unloaded gun.
But in general, I do agree with your point, and that should be the overriding understanding.....except for when a gun the gun is in use as an unloaded gun.
dragline45 said:Not sure if you realize this, but this is the semi auto handgun forum....I cant even find an example of a true open bolt semi-auto pistol.
Where else would you discuss semi-auto handguns? I can't help you if your Google-Fu is weak in finding examples, but as a hint you may want to do a little research on the history of the Mac-10 and Mac-11
Few for sale:
Semi-auto open bolt Mac-10 in .45 for sale here:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=493996448
Semi-auto open bolt Mac-10 in 9mm for sale here:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=494495407
Semi-auto open bolt Mac-11 in .380 for sale here:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=494071205
Bunch more on Gunbroker if you want more, they're not hard to find.
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dakota.potts
New member
Law aside, I believe a gun to with the magazine (or cylinder) loaded and inserted into the gun is loaded. One with a magazine in and a round in the chamber is loaded and chambered.
When shooting competition locally, you're allowed to have loaded magazines on you and your gun on you but the magazines can't be in the gun and rounds can't be chambered. Then you'll step up to the starting box and receive your instructions (typically something like load and chamber handgun, start with full magazine in rifle but empty chamber etc.)
If your gun stores ammunition in the grip or stock, it is not loaded. If your revolver cylinder has ammunition in it but is in a separate bag from the gun, the cylinder is loaded but not the gun until the two are brought together.
If you're coming into a shop where I work with a gun, I expect it to either be safely holstered or to be unloaded with magazines empty or well separated from the gun. Don't come in with a loaded gun or an empty gun in a case with loaded magazines. Maybe that's just me though. Ammunition shouldn't be handled with a gun in a shop environment. That's different than what happens on the range, in your home, in your car, or according to the laws of your state.
When shooting competition locally, you're allowed to have loaded magazines on you and your gun on you but the magazines can't be in the gun and rounds can't be chambered. Then you'll step up to the starting box and receive your instructions (typically something like load and chamber handgun, start with full magazine in rifle but empty chamber etc.)
If your gun stores ammunition in the grip or stock, it is not loaded. If your revolver cylinder has ammunition in it but is in a separate bag from the gun, the cylinder is loaded but not the gun until the two are brought together.
If you're coming into a shop where I work with a gun, I expect it to either be safely holstered or to be unloaded with magazines empty or well separated from the gun. Don't come in with a loaded gun or an empty gun in a case with loaded magazines. Maybe that's just me though. Ammunition shouldn't be handled with a gun in a shop environment. That's different than what happens on the range, in your home, in your car, or according to the laws of your state.
Lots of great responses here. While we should always treat every gun as loaded, which is just an easier way of saying that it is prudent to ensure all ammunition is removed from the firearm before handling it, of course that doesn't mean that all guns are always loaded. Just that we should always make sure they are clear. This quickly becomes habit as any gun that comes into my hands, whether it's mine or not, is checked unless I already know it's condition. I don't need to constantly check my loaded guns because I'm sure they're loaded. Picking up a gun I haven't touched in a while, well, it's just habit. The action is opened and inspected first and foremost.
Many of the other posters here are right. The legal definition, while varying in different municipalities and states, typically defines loaded as any ammunition in the gun regardless of chamber condition. That's an important definition to know when transporting or travelling, so make sure you find out what those definitions are beforehand. As far as the range guy, that's his definition and you must oblige him. While I also consider ammunition in a gun to be legally loaded, I don't believe it to be technically loaded. I am a firm believer that an unchambered gun is inert even if it can quickly be put into battery.
Many of the other posters here are right. The legal definition, while varying in different municipalities and states, typically defines loaded as any ammunition in the gun regardless of chamber condition. That's an important definition to know when transporting or travelling, so make sure you find out what those definitions are beforehand. As far as the range guy, that's his definition and you must oblige him. While I also consider ammunition in a gun to be legally loaded, I don't believe it to be technically loaded. I am a firm believer that an unchambered gun is inert even if it can quickly be put into battery.
Having said all that--I'm not sure what the purpose of CCW is if you don't have one in the well ready to go.
First off, the purpose of concealed carry is to allow you carry the weapon concealed. Not to be able to win a fast draw contest, but to have the weapon ON YOU, without others knowing it. Sure, it is useful to be able to draw and fire in one motion, but its not a requirement, and while a CCW with an empty chamber might not be as useful, it is not useless.
Also, your choice of terms gives you away. The "well" to me says MAG WELL, meaning in the magazine, not in the chamber (often referred to as one in the pipe)
As to open bolt handguns, they exist, and you could get one, fairly cheap, up until the early 80s. IIRC the original Cobray M11/9 (open bolt 9mm), was essentially a semi copy of the MAC 10 SMG design. Was either $169 or $189 back in those days. Then the ATF decided that they (meaning all open bolt handguns) were "too easy" to convert to full auto. For various reasons (I suspect the main one being a desire to stay in business) these open bolt semi handguns were redesigned to operate from the closed bolt.
Last time I saw one for sale in person was some time ago, and the <$200 handgun of a few years before was $850 and climbing.
As I read the discussion, it seems that some folks cannot wrap their minds around the fact that a gun with an empty chamber can be loaded. IT ABSOLUTELY CAN. It isn't dangerous with an empty chamber, but it CERTAINLY IS LOADED.
leaving aside the military usage or the arcane laws that can make a gun legally loaded even with no ammo in it, just look at the common everyday use of terms. We LOAD our guns, then chamber a round. The gun is LOADED BEFORE a round is chambered.
OR look at any revolver. Empty chamber in line with the barrel (or fired case), the rest of the cylinder full of live ammo. Would you say it is not loaded??? No one I know would. Nor, I think, would any court, anywhere.
A gun with an empty chamber and rounds in the cylinder or magazine is not a danger of AD or ND (without further human action) but it IS LOADED.
Perhaps you can get this analogy;
All ostriches are birds, but all birds are not ostriches.
And if you think a gun with ammo in it isn't loaded, you are sticking your head in the sand, too.
lifesizepotato
New member
44 AMP said:And if you think a gun with ammo in it isn't loaded, you are sticking your head in the sand, too.
According to your definition of "loaded." Your entire argument is predicated on you already having the correct definition. It's begging the question in its purest sense.
Ok, let's start with some basic premises we can all agree on.
Premise 1: There is value in distinguishing between loaded and unloaded because it provides insight into whether or not a firearm can be discharged.
Premise 2: A firearm that can be discharged by pulling the trigger is not unloaded.
Fact: A firearm that operates from an open bolt can be discharged by pulling the trigger even if the chamber is empty as long as a loaded magazine is installed.
It follows from the starting premises and the stated fact that a definition of unloaded that states "chamber empty" = "unloaded" can not be correct because it results in an "unloaded" firearm that can be fired by pulling the trigger.
Premise 1: There is value in distinguishing between loaded and unloaded because it provides insight into whether or not a firearm can be discharged.
Premise 2: A firearm that can be discharged by pulling the trigger is not unloaded.
Fact: A firearm that operates from an open bolt can be discharged by pulling the trigger even if the chamber is empty as long as a loaded magazine is installed.
It follows from the starting premises and the stated fact that a definition of unloaded that states "chamber empty" = "unloaded" can not be correct because it results in an "unloaded" firearm that can be fired by pulling the trigger.
Jim Watson
New member
Another Cooperism to consider:
He would also refer to Condition 3, magazine loaded (and inserted) as "half loaded."
And while we are at it, ever notice how the mass media gloatingly reports someone with a FULLY loaded weapon?
He would also refer to Condition 3, magazine loaded (and inserted) as "half loaded."
And while we are at it, ever notice how the mass media gloatingly reports someone with a FULLY loaded weapon?
Guggmeister
New member
Open-bolt guns are loaded when a loaded magazine is inserted. Closed bolt guns are loaded when a round is chambered (in any chamber in a revolver/multibarrel).
Guggen, I hope you never hand an inexperienced shooter an "unloaded" closed bolt gun, only to have them rack the slide/bolt, and have them ND because they took it as an "empty" or cold gun.
While ultimately the responsibility of the person pulling the trigger, you would had likely provided info that can logically had been taken to mean something completely else.
While ultimately the responsibility of the person pulling the trigger, you would had likely provided info that can logically had been taken to mean something completely else.
For practical purposes I agree that a loaded gun should be considered to be any gun with any ammunition in it, either chamber, magazine or cylinder, safety on ,safety off, doesn't matter. Plus whenever handling a gun you should always treat it as loaded. That's just basic gun safety principles. However for the sake of discussion here's the actual Utah statute on what a loaded gun is legally in the state of Utah. Kind of quirky and certainly more gun friendly than many other states. Interesting for conversation:
U.C.A. 76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
U.C.A. 76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
That would create a definition that is only useful to a person who can identify the type of firearm in question at a glance.Open-bolt guns are loaded when a loaded magazine is inserted. Closed bolt guns are loaded when a round is chambered (in any chamber in a revolver/multibarrel).
Are we really saying that the concept of loaded is so complex that there isn't a single definition that applies across the board?
Ok, everyone pull out all your manuals and look up the sections which explain how to unload the firearm. I'm interested to see if ANYONE can quote a manual which states that a firearm (other than a single shot firearm) is unloaded as soon as a chambered round is extracted & ejected regardless of the presence or absence of any other ammo in the firearm.
JohnKSa said:Are we really saying that the concept of loaded is so complex that there isn't a single definition that applies across the board?
I believe that is probably a true statement.
=JohnKSa said:I'm interested to see if ANYONE can quote a manual which states that a firearm (other than a single shot firearm) is unloaded as soon as a chambered round is extracted & ejected regardless of the presence or absence of any other ammo in the firearm.
On the flip side, ignoring open bolts, can anyone quote a manual in which the "LOADING" instructions DO NOT include chambering a round in a semi-auto?
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