Define Loaded Gun

[FrankenMauser]

I think we are splitting hairs here just so we can demonstrate how well we understand various firearms operating systems, local and game regulation and laws, and how well we memorized the writings of Old man Cooper.......

What's the point of a discussion, if real world situations are not brought in for consideration?

 

[kilimanjaro]

As far as I'm concerned, any firearm I pick up is loaded until I check it and clear it. And when I pass it to you, you'd better consider it loaded and do the same thing.

 

[stagpanther]

Upon leaving a range once I was asked if my rifle was unloaded--I performed a full clearing--and when working the action a spent case was ejected. No recriminations since technically it was unloaded-- but I was still very embarrassed since it could have just as easily been a live round.

 

[44 AMP]

I started by showing a Colt 1911 A1 pistol, with the empty mag inside and the slide back to one of the students. I would ask if it was loaded. They always said no. I told them they were wrong. It was fully loaded. I then pulled the mag to show it had no cartridges in it and there wasn't one in the chamber. I said that made no difference, it was still fully loaded.
I change Rule #1 to "There is no such thing as an unloaded gun, even if you have checked it and double checked it, as I always do".
Made quite an impression on them.

That would have made an impression on my kids, or on me, as a child, but it would NOT have been a favorable one.

I believe I understand the philosophy behind the safety rules, and I see no need to change them. I also think your change to "Rule #1" could be easily misunderstood by those who do not already understand that philosophy, and being the obvious opposite of physical reality, your personal credibility suffers, and because of that, to a degree, so does that of the message itself.

As to arms with on board ammo storage, not connected to the action of the firearm, (such as a butttrap, etc. ) I believe that the word loaded could still be applied. Several words in English have multiple meanings in different contexts. I think loaded would apply in a different context than the common usage, but would still apply. Ammo was loaded into the cartridge trap, speedfeed tube, etc.

I've looked around a bit, and can only find two types of definition of a loaded weapon. The common usage, all variants of which use the physical state of the gun and ammunition as the determining factor, and a legal definition created by some laws (primarily game & transportation laws) that rely on the ability of a person to load a gun as the determining factor of a violation of statute. In other words, the potential to be loaded is the same violation as an actual physically loaded gun.

Every definition of "loaded" that relies on the actual rather than the potential has one thing in common, that there is ammunition in the gun.

Personally, I think that's a reasonable place to stop.

 

[45_auto]

Ammunition in auxiliary compartments or devices which do not communicate or connect in any way to the action or chamber of the firearm is obviously very different from cartridges in the firearm that can be fed into the chamber by operating the action.

It would appear that there are at least a few (even among the limited number of respondents on this thread) who do not agree with you, hence my agreement with your earlier statement that possibly the concept of "loaded" is so complex that there isn't a single definition that applies across the board.

In common English, when you place ammo in a gun, you are loading the gun.

Putting ammo in it, loads it. Period.

Just my opinion, but I don't see how you can make a case for anything else.

As to arms with on board ammo storage, not connected to the action of the firearm, (such as a butttrap, etc. ) I believe that the word loaded could still be applied.

A gun is loaded if it has ammunition anywhere inside it.

Not sure what's so hard to get about that.

If there's a round inside the gun in any way, shape or form, the gun is loaded.

It's as simple as that.

There's a lot of thick skulls participating in this thread.

 

[stagpanther]

It's sorta like asking if a car has fuel or not--it could be in the tank--or it could be in gas cans in the trunk. Oh--and that fuel could possibly blow up.

 

[mavracer]

It would appear that there are at least a few (even among the limited number of respondents on this thread) who do not agree with you, hence my agreement with your earlier statement that possibly the concept of "loaded" is so complex that there isn't a single definition that applies across the board.

I'm quite sure that anyone not just being obtuse can see the difference between ammunition being in the gun and ammunition being on the gun.

Why would you teach your kids and their friends that it's okay to clean or do maintenance on a fully loaded gun?

Because you want them to treat them as loaded guns even when cleaning and maintaining it. So even though you just cleared your Glock you still point it in a safe direction when you pull the trigger to disassemble it.

 

[45_auto]

As to arms with on board ammo storage, not connected to the action of the firearm, (such as a butttrap, etc. ) I believe that the word loaded could still be applied.

I'm quite sure that anyone not just being obtuse can see the difference between ammunition being in the gun and ammunition being on the gun.

Are you implying that 44 AMP is being purposely obtuse?

 

[mavracer]

Are you implying that 44 AMP is being purposely obtuse?

No I was implying you are, but if the shoe fits.

 

[44 AMP]

Am I being obtuse by not recognizing I am being obtuse?

 

[Rachen]

The real definition should be that a loaded firearm means any firearm that contains not only live ammunition in the attached magazine or cylinder but with a round in battery and ready for immediate firing.

However, some states like NY state that merely possessing a firearm, and at the same time possessing any quantity of ammunition in THE SAME RESIDENCE that is chambered for the firearm constitutes a loaded firearm. No rounds have to be in the gun, but lets say, simply possessing a Glock in your living room and having a box of 9mm ammo in the bedroom means you have a "loaded firearm".

Using this Einstein logic, one can assume a waiter can kick me out of a restaurant for having a "lit cigarette" just because I possessed a pack of cigs AND a lighter in my other pocket at the same time

 

[JimPage]

Rachen: I believe you are mistaken. That definition only applies to a handgun left unattended in a car in New York State.

 

[44 AMP]

The real definition should be that a loaded firearm means any firearm that contains not only live ammunition in the attached magazine or cylinder but with a round in battery and ready for immediate firing.

I disagree.

Certainly the term "loaded" should include having a round in battery and ready for immediate firing, but it should not be limited to just that.

In basic English, putting something in or on something else "loads" it. It can be responsibility on your shoulders, cartridges in a gun, boxes in the trunk of your car, or a host of other things. You may add descriptors, "partially loaded, half loaded, loaded to capacity, fully loaded", etc., but they are ALL LOADED.

A gun is either loaded, or it unloaded. Placing a single round in the gun loads it. There is no other condition possible. Owners manual instructions (for all action types where ammo is not directly placed in the chamber) tell you to load the ammunition, then chamber a round in order to fire. NOTE THE ORDER. Load, then chamber. So in both standard English and the makers instructions a gun is loaded before it can be fired.

THEREFORE, choosing a definition that requires a round in position to fire immediately in order to be "loaded" is incorrect.

Round(s) in the gun, chamber empty, the gun is loaded.
Round(s) in the gun, chamber loaded, the gun is loaded.
No round in the gun, unloaded / empty / not loaded.

These are the only physical conditions possible.

Some have gone so far as to say "the gun is always loaded". (even when it's not). I think this is a poor idea. TREAT the gun as if it were loaded, sure, absolutely. EXPLAIN (over and over) WHY WE treat the gun as loaded, even when it is not.

But don't say its loaded when it is not. That just makes you look rather ..stupid.

(this does not apply to legal definitions, other than the stupid part...)

 

[45_auto]

In the military terms lock and load.
load refers to loading the chamber.

Are you uneducated in the loading of a typical open bolt machine gun, for example an M240 (US Army open bolt machine gun), or are you just being obtuse?

Depending on the type of action, the term "load" when used in loading a military weapon frequently has NOTHING to do with "loading the chamber".

M240 loading procedure (no round is in the chamber, weapon is loaded when first linked round is against the feed tray cartridge stop) is here:

071-025-0003 (SL1) - Load an M240B Machine Gun

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/SMCT_CTT_Tasks/Skill_Level_1/0710250003-sl1-load-an-m2.shtml

2. Load ammunition.

Note. Position the open side of links in the down position.

a. Place link belt on feed tray with the first round against the cartridge stop and tip of round pointing toward the barrel.

b. Close the cover assembly ensuring the latches lock into place.

 

[SHR970]

For those who believe all guns are always loaded...what about when I have it disassembled? If I have the barrel out of my 1911 and chamber a round it still can do NOTHING that the round couldn't already do by itself. A round chambered in that barrel doesn't mean a thing. By law that part of the gun with the serial number IS THE GUN.

All guns are loaded until proven otherwise. Mag out (if applicable), slide / bolt / action open. An open action can do nothing. A closed action may or may not be loaded.

Again, In my state by law there are two definitions of loaded. One is in the Penal Code, the other in Fish & Game. The problem is that they overlap when traveling in a vehicle over a road.

 

[mavracer]

When the range is ready to fire, the standard range command is "Firers LOCK and LOAD" your weapon. This means that you LOCK the loaded magazine into place, then LOAD the firearm by cycling the slide or charging handle.

the term "load" when used in loading a military weapon frequently has NOTHING to do with "loading the chamber".

I'm out of this one you can argue with yourself.

 

[Gunplummer]

I was in the Military twice. Seems like after somebody accidentally got shot with a .45 the shooter always said "It wasn't loaded!". You split hairs with "Loaded" and "Unloaded" and sooner or later you will have an incident. Been there. Seen that.

 

[JohnKSa]

It would appear that there are at least a few (even among the limited number of respondents on this thread) who do not agree with you...

Until the idea of auxiliary ammunition storage devices or secondary compartments in stocks that hold ammo was introduced, it's safe to say that no one was posting with such things in mind. The discussion started and centered around the idea of whether or not a loaded magazine in a gun made the gun loaded. It was admittedly creative to bring up the idea of whether or not a round stored in a hole under the buttplate of a rifle makes the rifle loaded or not. However, it wasn't relevant or helpful and it's a mistake to try to interpret the comments of those less concerned with creativity and more concerned with practical safety in such a contrived context when the actual context is so clear.

...my agreement with your earlier statement that possibly the concept of "loaded" is so complex...

I made no such "statement". I did ASK a rhetorical question which, I think, most people would correctly understand to have a negative answer.

I've been sitting here for the last 15 minutes trying to think of a good reason to leave this thread open and the only one I can come up with is that I don't like responding to a thread and then locking it. Unfortunately I don't believe that's a good enough reason to let this train wreck continue.