Define Loaded Gun

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Are we really saying that the concept of loaded is so complex that there isn't a single definition that applies across the board?
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No, I think there is a single definition that could be applied across the board, but some folks are not willing to accept it as valid.

Further complicating matters are the legal definitions of "loaded gun" which range from "Loaded=requiring only a single act to fire the weapon" or, "having a round in the firing position" to "Loaded = weapon and ammunition in the same vehicle compartment".

Historically speaking, repeating arms have only been around for what? 150 years or so?? AND, those arms that existed before repeaters are still with us as well.

The American Heritage dictionary gives a definition of loading as "charging a firearm with ammunition". Indeed, this is the common usage. We load ammo into the gun. Once that is done, the gun is "loaded".

WHERE in the gun the ammo is, is a different matter. Gun design makes the difference where the ammo goes, and whether or not it can be fired with just a trigger pull, once there.

Ok, let's start with some basic premises we can all agree on.

Premise 1: There is value in distinguishing between loaded and unloaded because it provides insight into whether or not a firearm can be discharged.
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agreed
Premise 2: A firearm that can be discharged by pulling the trigger is not unloaded.
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agreed
Fact: A firearm that operates from an open bolt can be discharged by pulling the trigger even if the chamber is empty as long as a loaded magazine is installed.
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agreed. (added for clarification - an open bolt action ALWAYS has the chamber empty, except at the moment of firing. Pulling the trigger releases the mechanical action to load the chamber and then fire the round as a single continuous action. Absent mechanical failure of the gun or the ammo, an open bolt gun WILL FIRE when it chambers a round)

It follows from the starting premises and the stated fact that a definition of unloaded that states "chamber empty" = "unloaded" can not be correct because it results in an "unloaded" firearm that can be fired by pulling the trigger.
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agreed

There are many gun designs where loading ammo into the gun makes them ready to fire. Single shots and double barrels. For these guns, and ONLY these guns a definition of "chamber empty = unloaded" is generally accurate. For repeating firearms, it is not.

I believe that you have to be able to separate "loaded" from "immediately able to fire" for a constant and applicable definition.

Absolutely, every gun that is immediately able to fire IS LOADED. No question there. (note, I did not say "has a loaded chamber") BUT, not every gun that is loaded is immediately able to fire.

I think that the best definition for common use of "loaded" is "ammunition in the gun". All our common use terms and phrases have that in common, in order to be loaded, there must be ammunition in the gun. It can be, but does not have to be in the firing chamber.

I think legal definitions for transport, and game laws defining "loaded" as anything other than "ammo in the gun" ought to be a separate discussion. Those laws are for specific situation, and as we have seen, can vary a lot from the general use term and even physical reality.

In common English, when you place ammo in a gun, you are loading the gun. When you put ammo in a magazine, your are loading the magazine.

Putting ammo in it, loads it. Period.

Just my opinion, but I don't see how you can make a case for anything else.
 
This thread is reminding me to be super extra careful with guns that spend any time outside of my control, and never take anyone's word for it's condition. I'll check myself, and re-check again thank you.
 
On the flip side, ignoring open bolts, can anyone quote a manual in which the "LOADING" instructions DO NOT include chambering a round in a semi-auto?
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If you're going to take this approach, it's necessary to look at the whole procedure.

Of course the manuals will include chambering a round as PART of the process of loading just as they will include extracting/ejection a round as PART of the process of unloading.

That doesn't meant that those PARTS of the procedure tell the whole story.

With the exception of manuals for single shot firearms (where there's no other place but the chamber for ammo), all the manuals I've seen incorporate much more than simply loading the chamber as part of the loading process. Some even explicitly state that there are different "levels" or "states" of "loaded" which are achieved as the loading process progresses.
This thread is reminding me to be super extra careful with guns that spend any time outside of my control, and never take anyone's word for it's condition.
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That is always the only sane and safe policy.

But like you, I have to admit that while that has always been the approach I've taken, that this thread has opened my eyes. Before now I had never imagined that anyone with a working knowledge of firearms might intentionally hand me a gun with ammunition in it and state that it is unloaded.
 
I agree 100%. And yes, it is very simple.

But for those who need convincing, the information in the manuals that came with their firearms may help them get over the hump. ;)
 
Be careful traveling through the People's Democratic Republic of Maryland , as Maryland State Troopers consider a loaded magazine, whether inserted or not, when near the pistol as a loaded weapon.
 
Be careful traveling through the People's Democratic Republic of Maryland , as Maryland State Troopers consider a loaded magazine, whether inserted or not, when near the pistol as a loaded weapon.
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Several states have outright bans on high capacity semi automatics. But local government laws are not designed with practical shooting in mind--they are designed as a means of gun control--which is a separate issue from safe firearms operations. As a New England resident I regularly pass through some of the worst states in terms of gun control with many weapons that are illegal in them. Federal law overrides local laws if you are legitimately transporting these weapons from one legal residence to another or to/back a certified shooting match. What I do is fairly simple--all weapons are unloaded and individually locked in cases--all ammunition and magazines (which are also unloaded) are also stored in a locked container and physically separated in the vehicle in such a way that it would be impossible to use the weapons without exiting the vehicle and unlocking several layers of storage. This defeats the notion of a loaded weapon--more importantly, weapons with an intent to use.

HOWEVER--this does not mean the many jurisdictions with many laws, sometimes differing, do not have the right to pull you over and give you a hard time--it just means that the law is on your side--eventually--if they do.

PS--I went through Sandy Hook right after the massacre there and was very nervous--as an added "layer of defeat" I also removed bolts/firing pins from all weapons and locked them up too.
 
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DanTSX said:
This thread is reminding me to be super extra careful with guns that spend any time outside of my control, and never take anyone's word for it's condition. I'll check myself, and re-check again thank you.
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That's a fundamental rule of firearms safety.
 
Is something like a Savage 24c with ammo storage in the buttstock loaded if there's ammo in the buttstock? Is a shotgun with rounds in the "Speedfeed" stock loaded?

https://www.safariland.com/more.../speedfeed/

I've seen guns with holes bored into the stock under the buttplate to store emergency supplies and ammo. Are these loaded, even if you have to unscrew the buttplate to remove the ammo?
 
With a name like "speedfeed" I'm sure it has nothing to do with loading or feeding efficiency. ; ) But in these cases--borderline I'll admit--technically the ammo must first be removed--i.e. "unloaded" from the weapon before being loaded to fire, there is no way it can somehow through negligence or otherwise cause an
AD. ASSUMING nothing has been also been left in the chamber or stock magazine--and that is where the problem lies with any concept of storing cartridges on/in a weapon.

Just my opinion--I don't claim to be any kind of authority
 
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We all know the Four Rules of gun safety. Rule # 1 is "Treat all guns as if they are loaded". I don't like the wording on that.
My daughter went to a Christian school. Three years in a row I was invited to bring in several guns used by our military from the 1870s through the 1970s. It was perfectly legal as I had the school's permission. I always talked about the Four Rules. I started by showing a Colt 1911 A1 pistol, with the empty mag inside and the slide back to one of the students. I would ask if it was loaded. They always said no. I told them they were wrong. It was fully loaded. I then pulled the mag to show it had no cartridges in it and there wasn't one in the chamber. I said that made no difference, it was still fully loaded.
I change Rule #1 to "There is no such thing as an unloaded gun, even if you have checked it and double checked it, as I always do".
Made quite an impression on them.:cool:
Jim
 
I then pulled the mag to show it had no cartridges in it and there wasn't one in the chamber. I said that made no difference, it was still fully loaded.
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Why would you teach your kids and their friends that it's okay to clean or do maintenance on a fully loaded gun?
 
44AMP wrote: No, I think there is a single definition that could be applied across the board, but some folks are not willing to accept it as valid.
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That includes the idiots in Cowtown that wrote the Fish and Game Code and the Penal Code. There are at least two different deffinitions of "LOADED" in California law enforceable upon a person.
 
Aguila Blanca
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Posted back in post 35;

A loaded magazine in a firearm equals a loaded firearm.

How many of you remember Lee Paige, the DEA "undercover" agent who (literally as well as figuratively) shot himself in the foot with his "Glock fowtay"? He had just handed the gun to someone else in the room, who confirmed that there was not a round in the chamber. If that meant he gun wasn't loaded ... how did he manage to shoot himself with it?
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Bolding mine.
And I agree with your top line!
I dispute that Mr. Paige handed his handgun to someone else (Brian). I have trained with instructors that have felt impelled for some reason to practice this clearing drill as in lock slide open and stick the firearm into the face of someone then declaring the firearm to be "Unloaded".
I call that kind of action "Eye Wash" and declare my firearms "Loaded" because we teach to "treat every firearm as if it were loaded.
I was talking to our County Sherriff a few years back when a man walked up and excused himself and asked the Sherriff; If I have my handgun unloaded and cased in a motor vehicle, can I have ammo in the magazines, or must the magazines be unloaded also. The Sherriff stated, NO, the magazines must also be unloaded! My jaw dropped and the Sherriff saw that, and the Man walked away believing he knew the law and I am sure would have fought with anyone telling him he was wrong on the magazine issue, anyway when I asked the Sherriff why he lied to that man he stated that it would be the best way to transport the gun and ammo as it showed there was no "Intent" to use the gun??????????:confused: I was so glad when we got our new Sherriff!!
 
Law enforcement generally don't know what state the firearm is in--or any of the states or conditions-- when the firearm or person wielding it are not known to them. "Intent" might seem like a very subjective thing--but the reality is that if a deadly weapon is in the hands of someone not known to them--I would think they may have to use instinct and visual clues to determine what intent is, at least that's how I see the conundrum they face.
 
stagpanther wrote: Law enforcement generally don't know what state the firearm is in--or any of the states or conditions-- when the firearm or person wielding it are not known to them.
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I submit that Law Enforcement generally doesn't know what state their firearm is in....or else THEY wouldn't have so many Youtube & NewsMedia moments! There are WAYYYY too many records of LEOs having negligent discharges...let alone discharges under dubious circumstances.

This is not a bash on LEOS in general but considering they carry live for a living, many in their ranks do not do them a favor by the way they handle firearms.

Edit to add: Last year two Dept. of Fish & Game officers asked me to disarm for a conversation after I had talked to one several minutes prior. I handed the gal my rifle and the guy my Ruger SSM. Neither had a clue how to empty / safe them. I was handed back the rifle and asked to empty it. I did so. moments later, I was asked how to disarm the handgun. They were both on the younger side. When I mentioned the name of the guy I spoke to earlier they relaxed a bit but were still showing their novicesness. The guy I spoke to minutes earlier simply asked if I had my license (which I produced) where I was based out of , and if I had seen anything. He was a bit older than me. It didn't bother him that I had a rifle slung on my shoulder and a side arm in the holster. Funny thing about deer hunting...you might actually have a rifle and / or pistol on you.
 
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Is something like a Savage 24c with ammo storage in the buttstock loaded if there's ammo in the buttstock? Is a shotgun with rounds in the "Speedfeed" stock loaded?

https://www.safariland.com/more.../speedfeed/

I've seen guns with holes bored into the stock under the buttplate to store emergency supplies and ammo. Are these loaded, even if you have to unscrew the buttplate to remove the ammo?
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No, of course not. Ammunition in auxiliary compartments or devices which do not communicate or connect in any way to the action or chamber of the firearm is obviously very different from cartridges in the firearm that can be fed into the chamber by operating the action.

However, if one were going to do maintenance on, or dryfire a weapon so equipped, it would be wise to remove ALL the ammo from the firearm, including ammunition in any storage compartments or attached auxiliary ammunition holding devices.
Why would you teach your kids and their friends that it's okay to clean or do maintenance on a fully loaded gun?
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I realize you're being intentionally obtuse, but the topic is actually very important so I'll provide a straight answer.

Even when a gun has been unloaded and checked, it is still very important to take safety precautions. It is not always possible to follow all the safety rules, as when disassembling/maintaining a firearm, or when dryfiring, and in those cases it is critical to exercise additional caution and not relax the other rules. Tragic accidents very often involve activities like dryfiring and firearm disassembly when people incorrectly assume/believe a firearm is unloaded.

An example of what I'm talking about is using a safe backstop when dryfiring, even when one believes and has verified that the gun is unloaded. An acquaintance of mine killed a person in the next room when he set out to dryfire but didn't take the proper precautions.

Another example is making sure that, during disassembly, even after the gun has been verified to be unloaded, the muzzle is still pointed in a safe direction and not at any body parts/fingers/hands/legs until the gun has actually been taken apart. Another acquaintance of mine is missing a finger because he allowed it to get in front of the muzzle while he was disassembling an "unloaded" firearm.
 
I grew up in Utah, frequently visiting neighboring states.

So, I have two definitions of loaded/unloaded:
The right one (in my opinion), 'Utah Unloaded'; and the stupid one - what most states considered unloaded (nothing in the firearm).
(Yes, I understand the reasoning and safety aspects of the 'standard' definition. But I grew up where a single empty chamber was good enough for everything but non-transfer bar revolvers. So, to me, the 'standard' definition is "dumb." ;))


Edit to add: Last year two Dept. of Fish & Game officers asked me to disarm for a conversation after I had talked to one several minutes prior. I handed the gal my rifle and the guy my Ruger SSM. Neither had a clue how to empty / safe them. I was handed back the rifle and asked to empty it. I did so. moments later, I was asked how to disarm the handgun. They were both on the younger side. When I mentioned the name of the guy I spoke to earlier they relaxed a bit but were still showing their novicesness. The guy I spoke to minutes earlier simply asked if I had my license (which I produced) where I was based out of , and if I had seen anything. He was a bit older than me. It didn't bother him that I had a rifle slung on my shoulder and a side arm in the holster. Funny thing about deer hunting...you might actually have a rifle and / or pistol on you.
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It seems to me that most game wardens come to the realization, over time, that it is in their best interest to NOT have people manipulating firearms around them.

It's best to just leave the assumed-to-be-loaded firearms where they are, or have the person lay it on the tail gate, put in on a stump, etc., rather than have them screwing around with it and have an ND send a 165 gr bullet into the cab of the truck (or worse).

Around here, if a game warden wants to look at your firearm it means one of two things:
1. You're in a vehicle and the firearm is a long gun (handguns are legal under state self defense laws). They want to see if the long gun meets the definition of "unloaded".
2. They suspect you're using illegal ammunition, an illegal caliber (depends on the state and animal), or a barrel that's too short (handguns); or don't have a magazine plug installed (shotguns - for migratory birds and waterfowl).

They don't bother even mentioning the firearms under most other circumstances, unless it's a lone warden that just found himself greatly outnumbered by a hunting party and he simply asks everyone to put the firearms down somewhere. ...Or he sees something interesting and wants to talk about it. ;)
 
I think we are splitting hairs here just so we can demonstrate how well we understand various firearms operating systems, local and game regulation and laws, and how well we memorized the writings of Old man Cooper.......
 
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