Define Loaded Gun

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45 auto said:
I would guess that both of you have very little experience with open-bolt weapons.

If you ever go to shoot one, you may be surprised by what happens when you pull the trigger on an empty chamber with a loaded mag thinking that it's "unloaded". Make sure that you have it pointed downrange, because it's going to go off.

Trying to apply your personal terminology from your limited experience to everyone doesn't work very well.
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Not sure if you realize this, but this is the semi auto handgun forum. The overwhelming majority of open bolt weapons are rifles and submachine guns, I cant even find an example of a true open bolt semi-auto pistol. If we were having this discussion in the NFA section, you might have been onto something.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 45 auto
I would guess that both of you have very little experience with open-bolt weapons.

If you ever go to shoot one, you may be surprised by what happens when you pull the trigger on an empty chamber with a loaded mag thinking that it's "unloaded". Make sure that you have it pointed downrange, because it's going to go off.

Trying to apply your personal terminology from your limited experience to everyone doesn't work very well.
Not sure if you realize this, but this is the semi auto handgun forum. The overwhelming majority of open bolt weapons are rifles and submachine guns, I cant even find an example of a true open bolt semi-auto pistol. If we were having this discussion in the NFA section, you might have been onto something.
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All the responses are appropriate regardless of the weapon type--the OP did not specify a particular platform. If anything, the thread was not categorized properly from the beginning while this remains a very relevant and important safety discussion to all types of firearms.
 
45_auto said:
Trying to apply your personal terminology from your limited experience to everyone doesn't work very well.
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I bow to your profound and universal wisdom in showing me the error of my ways.

Or at least I would, if I said that my definition applied to all those open bolt firearms we encounter daily. I'll make further amendments for the belt-feds and the Dardick mag-fed revolvers we all have kickin' in the back of our safes.
 
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Mavracer, your DI isn't here, and the consequences for an accident for misunderstanding "loaded" are far more severe than him making you guys run or do more push-ups. People can end up dead. This isn't a controlled range, so not all rounds ND's are going one direction.
 
I realize the range probably posted the sign to avoid any confusion ... .
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I'm still confused.

No Loaded Guns or Magazines
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In my mind you comply with the first prong by removing the magazine (if loaded) and clearing the chamber. To comply with the second prong you unload any rounds in the magazine then reinsert the mag into the pistol. I don't know if these common-sense measure would put me into compliance with the way the range interprets their sign.
 
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DanTSX,
You should work on reading comprehension, my point was to illustrate that while the military uses the term load for actually load in the chamber it most certainly considers a firearm with rounds on the mag and the mag locked in place that it is loaded and to unload the arm one must remove all rounds;)
 
If the bacon bits, sour cream, and scallions are not touching the soft interior of the baked potato then it's NOT a loaded baked potato. Sprinkling those ingredients about an uncut baked potato imho does not make it a LOADED baked potato
 
Mav, I'm talking about the guy in the gun store, and the signs there. For various reasons, the military's definitions do not apply.

Moving on....:)
 
For various reasons, the military's definitions do not apply.
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Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

It's not a military definition of a loaded weapon. It's a command to load the chamber. The military considers a weapon with 1 round in the magazine a loaded weapon. The military considers a weapon with 5 rounds in the magazine a loaded weapon The military considers a weapon with 15 rounds in the magazine a loaded weapon, The military considers a weapon with 30 rounds in the magazine a loaded weapon no matter if there is a round in the chamber or not. Hence an unloaded gun for civilian or for military doesn't have any rounds in the magazine or the chamber and a loaded gun has rounds in it even if it doesn't have a round chambered.
 
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The state of Utah defines a loaded gun as being a gun which requires only a single mechanical action for it to fire. This means that a loaded magazine without one in the chamber is not a loaded gun under Utah law. If it is a revolver and you have to pull the trigger twice it is also not considered loaded. It is illegal in Utah to carry a loaded gun concealed without a concealed carry permit. However I am an attorney in Utah and I know of individuals who were carrying a firearm concealed without a concealed carry permit and the prosecutor had to drop the charges because although the gun had a loaded magazine there was not one in the chamber and therefore was not considered a concealed weapon. Interesting definition given this discussion
 
The way I look at it is, would I handle a gun without concern and dry-fire it, in my home or in a gun store, if it contained a loaded magazine? Absolutely NO, I would remove the magazine, clear and check the chamber, and look it over very carefully before deciding it is safe to do those things. If there is a loaded magazine in the gun, even if the chamber is empty, it is loaded and gets the full respect a loaded gun deserves.
 
Loaded

In Pa. if you have a hunting rifle in your vehicle with rounds in the magazine and chamber empty it is considered loaded by the Pa Game Commision and you WILL get busted if your weapon is in this condition and they check you.

During Flintlock only season if your piece has a load in the barrel but no priming charge in the pan it is considered UNLOADED and is legal for transport in a vehicle. Same with cap locks/inlines, the possibility of ignition is the factor.

"All guns are always loaded", I think it was Jeff Cooper who said there are two kinds of shooters in the world; those who have had an accidental discharge AND THOSE WHO WILL! This is something to ponder very seriously.

Obviously Rule #1 is not technically true, it means potentially loaded and needs to be observed. Even if you observe just one of the 4 rule and break all the others you probably avoid shooting something you don't want to.
 
Is this range owned by one of bloomies crying mommies??
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Maybe it's owned by someone who's grown long tired of having patrons wave loaded guns around. He's also probably done with the "it doesn't have a round chambered" arguments.

We've been over this before. Range policies are defined by two primary factors:

  • a desire to avoid accidents and liability
  • the hard-won knowledge that know-it-all gunnies are the source of said accidents and liability

I lost count of how many times I've had people whip out guns and try to unload them at the counter, usually by sweeping others with the firearm. I've seen negligent discharges happen in the sign-in area. I've had innumerable arguments over whether or not a gun was loaded...except for the round Joe Bob forgot was in the chamber.

For anyone working as an RSO, the words "it's not loaded" are a dangerous lie.

It's their range, and their rules. If they say a loaded magazine constitutes a loaded firearm, then it does.
 
"All guns are always loaded", I think it was Jeff Cooper who said there are two kinds of shooters in the world; those who have had an accidental discharge AND THOSE WHO WILL! This is something to ponder very seriously.
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Yup--and the only way to 100% ensure that never happens is not have a cartridge in the weapon. I'd add to that reliance on the mechanical construction and function of safeties, triggers etc of a weapon assuming a weapon can't fire can also lead to an AD eventually.

Having said all that--I'm not sure what the purpose of CCW is if you don't have one in the well ready to go.
 
BarryLee said:
Ok, had a friendly disagreement with someone concerning a sign at a local range and wanted a little feedback. A local indoor range has sign posted that reads, “No Loaded Guns or Magazines”.

I told the guy behind the counter that I understood the ban on loaded guns, but didn’t understand the issue with loaded magazines. He basically said that if the magazine was loaded and in the gun someone might chamber a round presenting a safety issue. I responded that a loaded magazine in a gun was actually a loaded gun. However, he disagreed and said a loaded magazine was simply that and that the gun itself wasn’t actually loaded until a round was chambered.

So, I understand this isn’t really a big deal, but just curious what others might think.
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When you put a loaded magazine into a gun, the gun becomes loaded, even if no round is chambered.
 
stagpanther said:
Having said all that--I'm not sure what the purpose of CCW is if you don't have one in the well ready to go.
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Some of us learned to use firearms in the service and this is how the service carries arms due to administrative handling; only chambering a round when going out on mission.
 
Quote:
Is this range owned by one of bloomies crying mommies??
Maybe it's owned by someone who's grown long tired of having patrons wave loaded guns around. He's also probably done with the "it doesn't have a round chambered" arguments.

We've been over this before. Range policies are defined by two primary factors:
a desire to avoid accidents and liability
the hard-won knowledge that know-it-all gunnies are the source of said accidents and liability

I lost count of how many times I've had people whip out guns and try to unload them at the counter, usually by sweeping others with the firearm. I've seen negligent discharges happen in the sign-in area. I've had innumerable arguments over whether or not a gun was loaded...except for the round Joe Bob forgot was in the chamber.

For anyone working as an RSO, the words "it's not loaded" are a dangerous lie.

It's their range, and their rules. If they say a loaded magazine constitutes a loaded firearm, then it does.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
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Yup this. I've always thought that a good sign for a range would be "Live fire permitted only at YOUR target AFTER the range has been declared CLEAR and HOT--Otherwise you may expect RETURN FIRE !!":D

I think one's opinion on these things changes dramatically after having a bullet impact within few yards of one's self.
 
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