Define Loaded Gun

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When the old runningbear was running to stay out of prison five years ago,when I was put on trial and falsely accused of pointing a deadly weapon at a person.

A felony and they were wanting to give me from 18 to 24 Months in prison.

The the state said I had a deadly weapon "a handgun" with a fully loaded magazine, and a live round in it's chamber.

This is what they the state called a loaded handgun.:)
 
Posted by ritepath:
Is this range owned by one of bloomies crying mommies???
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Irrelevant and off topic.

I know of no reasonable person who would contend that a firearm containing a loaded magazine was not loaded, and in the event of contention, either involving the discharge of a firearm or an action against trespass, I cannot imagine finding LEOs, attorneys, or a trial jury who would agree with that argument.

Dictionary definitions are generally in agreement--a loaded gun is one that contains ammunition, or contains ammunition in the chamber or magazine.

Unless an issue at hand happened for some reason to depend upon a relevant statutory or regulatory definition, say in a criminal case of some kind, any dispute would be decided on the basis of dictionary definitions.
 
old marksman said:
I know of no reasonable person who would contend that a firearm containing a loaded magazine was not loaded
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Obviously lots of people on here who've never qualified with a firearm in the military.

When the range is ready to fire, the standard range command is "Firers LOCK and LOAD" your weapon. This means that you LOCK the loaded magazine into place, then LOAD the firearm by cycling the slide or charging handle.

If placing a loaded magazine into the weapon made it loaded, the command would have to be "Firers LOAD and LOAD your weapon".

Try going out to qualify, then placing a loaded magazine in your M16 and not loading it by cycling the charging handle because it's already "loaded". Explain to your friendly drill instructor that the weapon is "Loaded" even though you haven't cycled the charging handle.

On the other hand, there are lots of people who would argue that DI's (Drill Instructors) and Drill Sergeants aren't "reasonable people"!

Army Marksmanship Study Guide is here, range commands start down in Annex 3:

http://www.armystudyguide.com/conte..._topics/m16a2/trainers-guide-to-success.shtml

Load the weapon only on the command from the tower.
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Firers lock and load one three round magazine.
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miltary definitions have nothing to do with this. They may in fact be poor comparisons if definitions are built on outdated doctrine. They are the last people you want to listen to in regards to basic pistol handling and marksmanship instruction.

The military can keep their definitions if it works for them.
 
I think it's something that could be debated until the cows come home . . . and there would be a half dozen answers.

Revolver . . . any range I've ever shot at, when it's cold that means an "unloaded" cylinder . . . not one with cartridges in the chamber but the cylinder swung out (if a swing out cylinder) . . . same for a SAA . . empty chambers.

Same for semi autos . . . empty chamber and either loaded OR empty magazine dropped. I've take a number of different classes . . in MI and AZ . . on a semi-auto, the instructor always gives the command to unload and clear your weapon - i.e. magazine out, slide locked open and you and he or she check it to make sure it's clear.

On a "cold range" . . . if someone is out front putting up or taking down targets . . . any that I have shot at you are to lay your "cleared" hand gun down and step back - mag out, slide locked back or cylinder swung out or loading gate open (on SAA).

I'm sure everyone has their own "interpretation" though . . . just like the state law mentioned about handgun & ammo being transported in the car. If I'm out in front of a "cold" range putting up a target or switching one out . . . the last thing I want is a handgun with ANY cartridges in it where some fool could start fiddling with it and accidentally let a round off . . . not every range has a range officer or a range officer who runs a "tight ship".
 
I don't subscribe to the saying "ALL GUNS ARE LOADED".
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Maybe because you are only using part of the saying?

its "assume (or treat) all guns as loaded until you are certain otherwise"

Meaning, until you, personally have verified it is empty, treat it as loaded for safety.


I don't know anyone who would argue that a gun with ammo in it (chambered round, or not) isn't "loaded".

That is just basic common sense.

Where it gets confusing is the state definition of loaded when the common definition is different.

This most often is applied during transport.

Some places use the common definition, rounds in the gun, loaded, no rounds in the gun, unloaded.

But some places use a MUCH broader definition. In those places, a gun with NO AMMO IN IT can legally be a loaded gun, and you can be prosecuted for it.

If the gun, and the ammo are within your control (meaning within reach, or within the same "room" (passenger compartment of a car or truck for example)
the fact that you COULD get the ammo and load the gun legally constitutes a loaded gun.

And there is virtually no defense. IF the conditions specified in law are met, then no matter your intentions, or what you THOUGHT was ok, buddy, you are guilty.

So, the real problem for shooters isn't when is a loaded gun a loaded gun, (because it always is), but when a physically unloaded gun IS A LOADED GUN in the eyes of the law.

So, some legal definitions (the sane ones) rely on the actual physical configuration of the gun and ammunition. Others rely on the POTENTIAL configuration of the gun and ammo. VERY IMPORTANT to know which does which, where!!!!
 
Skans said:

There are at least 2, if not 4 conditions that any given semi-auto can be in:
1. Magazine Loaded (and inserted), but no round chambered. That gun is loaded!
2. Magazine Loaded and round chambered, hammer/striker back, safety off That gun is loaded!
3. Magazine Loaded, round chambered, hammer/striker back, safety on. That gun is loaded!
4. Magazine loaded round chambered, hammer/or striker down. That gun is loaded!

Bold print notations mine.


Bob Wright
 
.45_Auto said:

Obviously lots of people on here who've never qualified with a firearm in the military.

When the range is ready to fire, the standard range command is "Firers LOCK and LOAD" your weapon. This means that you LOCK the loaded magazine into place, then LOAD the firearm by cycling the slide or charging handle.
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Ha! The original commands and actions were:

LOCK: Open the bolt of the rifle and engage the safety. The rifle is now locked open

....AND LOAD: An eight round clip is inserted and the bolt allowed to close.

The rifle is now locked and loaded. This when the Army used real rifles.:rolleyes:

Bob Wright
 
I responded that a loaded magazine in a gun was actually a loaded gun. However, he disagreed and said a loaded magazine was simply that and that the gun itself wasn’t actually loaded until a round was chambered.
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Legal definitions are a product of legislatures and courts and may or may not have any bearing on real-world practicality.

So, legal definitions aside...

A gun is loaded if it can be fired without loading it first.

A gun is unloaded if it can't be fired without loading it first.

Pretty simple.

Those definitions will stand as long as we can agree that nothing on the following list is equivalent to loading a gun.
  • Racking/dropping the slide
  • Turning the cylinder/cocking the hammer/pulling the trigger
  • Operating the bolt
  • Hitting the bolt release
  • Operating the lever
  • Shucking a pump
 
To me a loaded gun has to fire if I pull the trigger, that means that their has to be a round chambered. I can pull the trigger on an empty chamber all day with a loaded mag and the gun will do nothing, to me that is not loaded.

Like the saying goes, lock and load. Not load, lock, and load.
 
To me a loaded gun has to fire if I pull the trigger...
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By this definition, any single action firearm is unloaded as long as it is not cocked, even if the chamber is loaded.

That definition would also mean that a gun with a manual safety set to the safe position is unloaded even if a round is chambered since pulling the trigger wouldn't fire it.

I think it's pretty clear that by any definition or stretch of the imagination, a firearm with a round in the chamber is loaded.
 
TunnelRat said:
Someone either chambered a round or there was a round chambered in the first place.
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The slide was locked back when he handed the pistol to someone off-camera to verify that it was unloaded. It was handed back with the slide locked back. Paige then released the slide, pointed the gun at the floor (and his foot), and pulled the trigger. Obviously, he chambered a round. Which proves that a gun with a loaded magazine is not an empty (unloaded) firearm.
 
To me a loaded gun has to fire if I pull the trigger, that means that their has to be a round chambered. I can pull the trigger on an empty chamber all day with a loaded mag and the gun will do nothing, to me that is not loaded.

Like the saying goes, lock and load. Not load, lock, and load.
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Not necessarily true--A weapon with the bolt locked back can inadvertently strip a round and fire if bungled the right way--and has happened. However small the chances may appear to be to actually fire--if a live cartridge is in the gun--it's loaded. Unless the mag is out, the bolt/cylinder disabled and the chamber verified look and feel empty--then I assume the weapon is loaded. Murphy is your shooting instructor--he's gonna find a way to get you to AD!
 
What the US Army taught me to do in 1975, on command..

LOCK (a loaded magazine into the weapon)
&
LOAD (load a round into the chamber)

This was the command sequence for anything that used a magazine. (and fired from the closed bolt)

For weapons that did not use a magazine (belt fed) or used a magazine and fired from the Open Bolt)
the commands were

LOAD (insert belt or loaded mag)
&
MAKE READY (move bolt to the firing position)

Some instructors would use Load & Make Ready for magazine fed closed bolt weapons as well. LOAD meant insert a loaded magazine, and Make Ready was the command to chamber a round.

The definitions I learned and will continue to use are

Loaded =ammo in the gun. round in the chamber, or not

Unloaded = no ammo in the gun

for transport, loaded is what ever the law says it is.

and, if you must be more precise, I suggest "Ready", "live" or "hot" to indicate a round in the chamber beyond the assumption of one from the term "Loaded".

Use whatever terms you feel best with, but, if you think a gun isn't loaded when there are rounds in it, but none in the chamber, I hope you never find out differently.
 
dantsx said:
miltary definitions have nothing to do with this.
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Why not? What definitions do you believe have anything to do with this? Legal definitions? Personal definitions on a forum? I can show you thousands of different ones of either type that support any position that you want to take. Why are they any more relevant than military definitions?

lifesizepotato said:
Firmly believe that loaded = round in the chamber. A semi-auto with a full magazine but no round in the chamber is functionally identical to a semi-auto with ammo located in the next county over until someone consciously racks the slide or teleporting cartridge technology is invented. Pull that trigger all you want, nothing is going to happen.
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dragline45 said:
To me a loaded gun has to fire if I pull the trigger, that means that their has to be a round chambered. I can pull the trigger on an empty chamber all day with a loaded mag and the gun will do nothing, to me that is not loaded.
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I would guess that both of you have very little experience with open-bolt weapons.

If you ever go to shoot one, you may be surprised by what happens when you pull the trigger on an empty chamber with a loaded mag thinking that it's "unloaded". Make sure that you have it pointed downrange, because it's going to go off.

Trying to apply your personal terminology from your limited experience to everyone doesn't work very well.
 
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45 auto, you are projecting. My experience isn't limited.

To be clear, I am talking about the Army qualification range commands you cited. These commands and other regulations are rooted in older weapon types than we are talking about. Noteably, applied from bolt action arms as another poster thoughtfully pointed out. Would it be too much to read the entire conversation for context before admonishing me or berating anyone who didn't serve as an uneducated fool? You were taught a method that addressed the lowest common denominator to keep every joe who never touched a gun before safe and operating on the same page. That works for boot. (Maybe) but out here in the real world, we are having this very discussion of what it means when someone wants fool around with loaded ammunition supplies in the presence of cold guns.


Oh I know what happens on an open bolt firearm. Don't assume so much.
 
To me, it's simple. If there is ammo in the weapon, it's loaded. If it can be fired without adding anything, it's loaded.
 
Obviously lots of people on here who've never qualified with a firearm in the military.
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In the military terms lock and load.
load refers to loading the chamber.
Let your Drill tell you to unload the gun and you just empty the chamber and leave a loaded mag in place and see what happens:eek:
 
Wow, thought I’d get four or five responses and the thread would fade away. I didn’t count the actual responses, but it seems the general consensus is that a loaded magazine inserted into a gun equals a loaded gun even if there is nothing in the chamber.

I realize the range probably posted the sign to avoid any confusion and I obviously have no issue with that. The only thing that I disagreed with was the range employee’s assertion that a handgun with a loaded magazine inserted, but no round chambered was somehow not a loaded weapon.
 
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