Cost:Benefit Looking at Reloading
- Thread starter ChaoticRambo
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leadcounsel
Moderator
It's the difference between HOBBY and SAVING MONEY.
Reloaders are always saying to reload to 'save money' but for anyone with decent earning potential, that's not the case.
For instance, my tailor is a school teacher who used to work as a Nordstrom tailor. She moonlights on nights, weekends, and summer as a tailor from her home. And they buy up storage lockers and sell the stuff on Craigslist. She makes a KILLING in cash. WAAAYYYY more than a reloader could 'earn' sitting at a reloading press making .30-06 ammo (which has no financial value to anyone else if that person were forced to try to liquidate his ammo).
Reloaders are always saying to reload to 'save money' but for anyone with decent earning potential, that's not the case.
One might not take time off their day job, but if a person can moonlight in their career and earn $... doing work on the side, starting their own side business, etc.
For instance, my tailor is a school teacher who used to work as a Nordstrom tailor. She moonlights on nights, weekends, and summer as a tailor from her home. And they buy up storage lockers and sell the stuff on Craigslist. She makes a KILLING in cash. WAAAYYYY more than a reloader could 'earn' sitting at a reloading press making .30-06 ammo (which has no financial value to anyone else if that person were forced to try to liquidate his ammo).
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It will cost more money to buy 100 rounds of any ammo than to reload it. That equals saving money. The amount may be so small that it is not profitable but you are still saving money. What I chose to do with that money, load more ammo or keep it in my wallet is up to me. The equipment used can frequently be resold at close to the cost of new. Thus the price paid can’t be calculated as a total loss. The value of the ammo loaded to anyone else is irrelevant since I am not interested is saving money for them. Figuring in the square footage used is silly because you would be paying for it even if you didn’t reload. Just like clipping coupons saves money at the grocery store, sometimes not a lot but it would cost more if you didn’t do it. We are not talking about making money just saving it. There is a big difference in the two.
leadcounsel
Moderator
Sorry, this would be a failing grade in an economics course.
The thread is about COST BENEFITS of reloading. Not do I enjoy the hobby.
When you rent an apartment, or buy a home, you are paying X $ per square footage. The more things you fill the home with, the larger home you need, hence the more square footage and the larger the expense. Space costs money, plain and simple. More activities require more space.
Most reloaders I know have a designated, permanent room with a desk, cabinets, storage lockers, etc taking up on average 100 square feet or 10x10 give or take, so they can reload in private without being distracted or involving setup and teardown time. If you're paying $15 per square foot on your 10x10 reloading room, that's $150 per month in costs. In theory you could rent the room out to a tenant, use it for storage instead of a storage locker, or rent a smaller apartment instead and eliminate that 10x10 room. So, it's definitely a 'cost.' Otherwise known as an "opportunity cost."
Clipping coupons for an employed person is also not very economical unless you have no skills and are on minimum wage jobs. One might spend money to buy the paper, and spend an hour clipping $10 in coupons, and then spend additional time organizing them, carrying them around, applying them at the store hunting for the right item, checking to ensure coupons are not expired, blah blah blah. Maybe save $10 on the grocery bill, but spend 2 extra hours of time from clipping them to applying them to the final bill... for most people it's a waste of time/effort. If it takes 2 hours to safe $10, that's earning $5 per hour and a waste of time.
I'll pass on reiterating all of my other points... go back up to my earlier posts...
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jetinteriorguy
New member
The comparison between resale value of reloaded ammo vs factory can be mitigated by not loading up all your components, just load as you shoot. This way components are easily resold at pretty much full value. But then what fun is that. Personally I prefer sitting at my loading bench to watching the crap on TV or haunting gun forums on the Internet to get in endless silly arguments. 
shootniron
New member
Shootest...you are wasting your time.
He has a need to feel like he knows more than everyone and he has a need to try to prove that conventional wisdom is wrong.
But, it is very obvious that he has no experience with the subject that he seeks to be extolled for enlightening the uninformed, about.
Just another KEYBOARD COMMANDO...like all gun forums are repleat with.
He has a need to feel like he knows more than everyone and he has a need to try to prove that conventional wisdom is wrong.
But, it is very obvious that he has no experience with the subject that he seeks to be extolled for enlightening the uninformed, about.
Just another KEYBOARD COMMANDO...like all gun forums are repleat with.
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For me, the cost of reloading is what I spend. The benefit is that I get ammunition, crafted to my standards.
And MY standards are all that matters to me. The money I spend on floor space, and the time I spend making ammunition, not money, are not relevant, to me.
One reason for this is that the floor space, and my time, (and other things) would be spent on something else if I did not reload. Since I would be spending that money, or potential to make money anyway, I am losing nothing reloading.
Get a second job, spend your "free time" making money, enjoy your life. But don't bother telling me how bad off I am because I don't.
OK, I didn't spend years of my life getting a degree, so I won't pretend to understand why I'm losing money making something for less than it costs me to buy it. Just as I didn't understand the physics problem a co worker was working on one night. I found it interesting, but just couldn't accept what they said was the "right" answer.
Guy gets in a pool, swims down to the end, then swims back and gets out right were he got in. That part, I got. How far did he travel? That part, I thought I got. But their "correct" answer was he didn't go anywhere.
That part I never got.
Am I losing money having dinner with my wife? Or tucking in a granddaughter? Watching a movie, or being on TFL??
Looked at one way, I suppose I am. So?
I learned something a while back, something that too many people don't seem to get. We get more money. Daily, weekly, bi weekly, monthly etc, however your situation is, every so often a check comes in.
WE DON"T GET MORE TIME.
Everyone of us has an expiration date, and its somewhere none of us can read it from a distance. I don't consider the time I spend reloading wasted, or a financial loss, but then, I'm not in the business of making ammunition.
i have 3 rooms in my house that i haven't walked into in probably three weeks. i did not buy my house with the intent of having extra space for reloading. i am too old to ever have a roomate again. if i had nothing in my empty finished basement, then it would be a waste of money, luckily i have gun crap and exercise equipment to fill it with. i spent no more money on space that i wouldn't have if i didn't reload. even so, whats the rentable space of a large storage cabinet and a small gun safe anyways....maybe in japan
leadcounsel
Moderator
I applaud anyone that reloads. This isn't a PERSONAL attack or judgement or directive on how to spend your time.
It's a pure, unemotional economic analysis.
So if you remove the emotion and just purely look at it from economics, it's a different conclusion.
Walmart charges $50 to change my oil. The oil costs about $30, the filter $5. I *can* change my own and save $15. However, that takes an hour and I get filthy and then also have to dispose of the used oil, rags, filter, do cleanup, shower, etc. Alternatively, I can take it in, do my grocery shopping while someone else does it. The hour I save is way more valuable than the $15 I saved doing it myself...
Same analysis.
It's a pure, unemotional economic analysis.
So if you remove the emotion and just purely look at it from economics, it's a different conclusion.
Walmart charges $50 to change my oil. The oil costs about $30, the filter $5. I *can* change my own and save $15. However, that takes an hour and I get filthy and then also have to dispose of the used oil, rags, filter, do cleanup, shower, etc. Alternatively, I can take it in, do my grocery shopping while someone else does it. The hour I save is way more valuable than the $15 I saved doing it myself...
Same analysis.
Lost Sheep
New member
All those who object to the economics analysis
Some people enjoy shooting. Some people enjoy reloading. Some people enjoy running the numbers on cost analysis. Some people enjoy gardening. Some people enjoy more than one of these activities.
Don't knock how I get my pleasures, please. If I choose to make a hobby out of counting costs as well as making a hobby out of reloading and making a hobby of shooting, that is what I do and I do not expect to catch grief over it.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=663065
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7760989
The fish I catch might cost more than the fish I buy;
The veggies I grow might cost more than the those I buy;
The ammunition I shoot might cost more than retail;
Why do I fish, garden and handload?
If you have to ask why, you probably won't understand; these activities enrich my life.
Why do I calculate the cost of my ammunition, fish and zuccini, even including the dollar value of my time? If you have to ask why, you probably won't understand. Running the numbers satisfies my curiosity. Strange as it may seem knowing those numbers pleases me.
Lost Sheep
Some people enjoy shooting. Some people enjoy reloading. Some people enjoy running the numbers on cost analysis. Some people enjoy gardening. Some people enjoy more than one of these activities.
Don't knock how I get my pleasures, please. If I choose to make a hobby out of counting costs as well as making a hobby out of reloading and making a hobby of shooting, that is what I do and I do not expect to catch grief over it.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=663065
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7760989
The fish I catch might cost more than the fish I buy;
The veggies I grow might cost more than the those I buy;
The ammunition I shoot might cost more than retail;
Why do I fish, garden and handload?
If you have to ask why, you probably won't understand; these activities enrich my life.
Why do I calculate the cost of my ammunition, fish and zuccini, even including the dollar value of my time? If you have to ask why, you probably won't understand. Running the numbers satisfies my curiosity. Strange as it may seem knowing those numbers pleases me.
Lost Sheep
You shouldn't factor in the value of time unless you think of reloading as work. Do you factor in time when you go see a movie? Of course not.
The cost of space is rarely a factor as most people have a sunk cost in their home. The basement/garage already has space so all one is doing is optimizing the original cost. It's rare when someone buys a home and pays extra for dedicated space. If that happens, then it would have to be factored in. However, there is a residual value upon sale which would have to be included as well.
Finally, there is a residual value for the reloading equipment. I've never reloaded and am looking to buy equipment. In my analysis, the breakeven for reloading 45 Colt is ~1,700 rounds. After that point, it's all in the plus column and if I ever stop reloading, the equipment could probably be sold for 50% of the original cost.
I can't see how it doesn't put coin in one's pocket.
The cost of space is rarely a factor as most people have a sunk cost in their home. The basement/garage already has space so all one is doing is optimizing the original cost. It's rare when someone buys a home and pays extra for dedicated space. If that happens, then it would have to be factored in. However, there is a residual value upon sale which would have to be included as well.
Finally, there is a residual value for the reloading equipment. I've never reloaded and am looking to buy equipment. In my analysis, the breakeven for reloading 45 Colt is ~1,700 rounds. After that point, it's all in the plus column and if I ever stop reloading, the equipment could probably be sold for 50% of the original cost.
I can't see how it doesn't put coin in one's pocket.
I'm speaking as an individual with multiple college level courses in economics which comprised a portion of my honors degree Bachelor of Science in Aerospace Engineering, an MS in Mechanical Engineering, a private entrepreneur, and an MBA (4.0 GPA). Using your analysis methodology, I can show that it would be far cheaper to eat out every night at an expensive restaurant rather than cooking your own meals at home.
Cooking a meal:
-Cost of time - using your figure off $30/hour, it'll cost most people at least $30 of their time to prepare, then clean up from a meal.
-Cost of floor space - most modern kitchens are a substantial fraction of the floor space of the home. That is a factor X/sq.ft.
-Cost of startup equipment - fridge, stove, microwave, dishwasher, cabinets, counters, sinks, china, furniture, etc.. Even depreciating it over the max allowable time span it would still cost you thousands of dollars per year.
Let's say you can make a sustainable average 1 meal an hour for $20 per meal. It would take you 1000 hours + $20,000 in materials to make 1,000 meals (1 meal/hr x 1000 hours = 1,000 meals). 1,000 hours of foregone work @ $30/hr is $30,000 + $20,000 in raw materials + $10,000 (cheap kitchen!) for the setup. Total economic cost of this 1,000 meals is $60,000. The hand made meal also has no economic value to anyone but you, so nearly zero resale value (I'm sure there is a thread somewhere where someone died from food poisoning). And this doesn't factor the learning curve, floor storage space/cost, inconvenience, and risks of rolling your own.
Your total cost is $30,000 + $20,000 + $10,000 = $60,000 for the 1,000 hand made meals.
Shoot, let's say somebody GIVES you the food so groceries cost you nothing. Those 1,000 meals STILL cost you $30,000 + $10,000 = $40,000 for 1,000 meals.
Conversely, let's say you buy 1,000 restaurant meals for $50,000, or $50 per meal. And you work those 1000 hours at a profession or side-job, earning $30,000. Total cost is $30,000 earned minus $50,000 spent on meals.
Your total cost is $30,000 - $50,000 = $20,000 for the 1,000 restaurant meals.
Therefore, if you eat a $50 meal at a local restaurant each night rather than cooking at home you will save approximately $40,000/(1,000/365) = $14,600 per year.
Even if you get FREE food, it's still twice as expensive ($40,000 vs $20,000) for you to eat at home as it is to pay $50 per meal at a restaurant! Cooking free food at home instead of paying $50 for a dinner every night in a local restaurant will cost you $7,300 per year!
From a purist economic standpoint, if you're gainfully employed and could otherwise be working, you may never reach an economic "break even" point. If fact, you could actually lose money for each meal you make versus just buying meals at restaurants and working at your job instead.
Note that from a purist economic standpoint, if you're gainfully employed and could otherwise be working, you may never reach an economic "break even" point on anything! Anytime you're not working (cooking, eating, sleeping, playing with your kids, reading, watching TV, buying ammo, shooting, etc) you're losing money.
Heck, I like your analysis! I can eat a fancy restaurant meal every night, spend over $1,000 per month on ammo, and STILL be saving money!
leadcounsel said:
Cooking a meal:
-Cost of time - using your figure off $30/hour, it'll cost most people at least $30 of their time to prepare, then clean up from a meal.
-Cost of floor space - most modern kitchens are a substantial fraction of the floor space of the home. That is a factor X/sq.ft.
-Cost of startup equipment - fridge, stove, microwave, dishwasher, cabinets, counters, sinks, china, furniture, etc.. Even depreciating it over the max allowable time span it would still cost you thousands of dollars per year.
leadcounsel said:
Let's say you can make a sustainable average 1 meal an hour for $20 per meal. It would take you 1000 hours + $20,000 in materials to make 1,000 meals (1 meal/hr x 1000 hours = 1,000 meals). 1,000 hours of foregone work @ $30/hr is $30,000 + $20,000 in raw materials + $10,000 (cheap kitchen!) for the setup. Total economic cost of this 1,000 meals is $60,000. The hand made meal also has no economic value to anyone but you, so nearly zero resale value (I'm sure there is a thread somewhere where someone died from food poisoning). And this doesn't factor the learning curve, floor storage space/cost, inconvenience, and risks of rolling your own.
Your total cost is $30,000 + $20,000 + $10,000 = $60,000 for the 1,000 hand made meals.
Shoot, let's say somebody GIVES you the food so groceries cost you nothing. Those 1,000 meals STILL cost you $30,000 + $10,000 = $40,000 for 1,000 meals.
Conversely, let's say you buy 1,000 restaurant meals for $50,000, or $50 per meal. And you work those 1000 hours at a profession or side-job, earning $30,000. Total cost is $30,000 earned minus $50,000 spent on meals.
Your total cost is $30,000 - $50,000 = $20,000 for the 1,000 restaurant meals.
Therefore, if you eat a $50 meal at a local restaurant each night rather than cooking at home you will save approximately $40,000/(1,000/365) = $14,600 per year.
Even if you get FREE food, it's still twice as expensive ($40,000 vs $20,000) for you to eat at home as it is to pay $50 per meal at a restaurant! Cooking free food at home instead of paying $50 for a dinner every night in a local restaurant will cost you $7,300 per year!
From a purist economic standpoint, if you're gainfully employed and could otherwise be working, you may never reach an economic "break even" point. If fact, you could actually lose money for each meal you make versus just buying meals at restaurants and working at your job instead.
Note that from a purist economic standpoint, if you're gainfully employed and could otherwise be working, you may never reach an economic "break even" point on anything! Anytime you're not working (cooking, eating, sleeping, playing with your kids, reading, watching TV, buying ammo, shooting, etc) you're losing money.
Heck, I like your analysis! I can eat a fancy restaurant meal every night, spend over $1,000 per month on ammo, and STILL be saving money!
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I've started reloading for the sole purpose of building light loads for my daughters first hunting rifle so she can practice shooting it. I wanted something that isn't readily, affordable, and commercially available.
I've come to enjoy reloading as a hobby and am starting to work on loading my hunting rifles for accuracy. I don't consider the $/unit cost because it's a hobby I enjoy that I don't mind spending some money on.
I've come to enjoy reloading as a hobby and am starting to work on loading my hunting rifles for accuracy. I don't consider the $/unit cost because it's a hobby I enjoy that I don't mind spending some money on.
Many of us would reload ...even if the cost savings was a push.../ to many of us, its part of the gun hobby.
I'm semi-retired../ even if you assume my "employed time" is worth $50 an hour ...my personal time is most valuable when I'm doing something I like - not a chore....and reloading is something I like to do...
Many of us, or at least I do, use a progressive press that loads about 1,000 rds an hour without breaking a sweat...so your amortization calculations are off a little...
Reloading is also about customizing my ammo...faster, slower, less recoil or whatever I want it to do in my handguns...for my use, my adult kids or my grandkids.......and its also about passing this skill and hobby down to the boys and the grandkids in the family...( that's worth a lot to me too )...including the time spent with them in my shop reloading ( because its a "cell phone free zone"...and the sign, is proudly displayed as they enter the shop ) - they think its funny, but they respect the concentration it takes....to work in the shop ( reloading, woodworking, etc ).../ and getting disconnected is not a bad thing once in a while..for the kids or for me...
But bottom line is so what - its a hobby not a chore / changing my SUV's oil is a chore ( so I'm happy to let the dealer do it for $ 100 or whatever it costs...)...
Yet there is some value added by reloading as well ...as I get toward my late 60's and on a fixed income in my life...with the same ammo budget, I can shoot 2 to 3 times more with the same ammo budget.../ while I can afford to spend $10,000 a yr on ammo ...I wouldn't ..../ but I'm happy to spend $ 3,000 - $4,000 on components a year...and shoot as if I spent the $ 10K.
I'm semi-retired../ even if you assume my "employed time" is worth $50 an hour ...my personal time is most valuable when I'm doing something I like - not a chore....and reloading is something I like to do...
Many of us, or at least I do, use a progressive press that loads about 1,000 rds an hour without breaking a sweat...so your amortization calculations are off a little...
Reloading is also about customizing my ammo...faster, slower, less recoil or whatever I want it to do in my handguns...for my use, my adult kids or my grandkids.......and its also about passing this skill and hobby down to the boys and the grandkids in the family...( that's worth a lot to me too )...including the time spent with them in my shop reloading ( because its a "cell phone free zone"...and the sign, is proudly displayed as they enter the shop ) - they think its funny, but they respect the concentration it takes....to work in the shop ( reloading, woodworking, etc ).../ and getting disconnected is not a bad thing once in a while..for the kids or for me...
But bottom line is so what - its a hobby not a chore / changing my SUV's oil is a chore ( so I'm happy to let the dealer do it for $ 100 or whatever it costs...)...
Yet there is some value added by reloading as well ...as I get toward my late 60's and on a fixed income in my life...with the same ammo budget, I can shoot 2 to 3 times more with the same ammo budget.../ while I can afford to spend $10,000 a yr on ammo ...I wouldn't ..../ but I'm happy to spend $ 3,000 - $4,000 on components a year...and shoot as if I spent the $ 10K.
Gosh, if I had a dollar every time someone said 'you have to take the time it takes to reload into the equation as a cost'...
In real life, most people spend several hours per day doing things that earns them no income. This time might be spent watching TV, playing video games, reading, playing golf, sleeping, eating, cooking, watching YouTube, playing with the kids etc. etc.
This is just how it is.
Then, just because someone decides to handload ammunition there is a group of people who feel compelled to insist that when leisure time is spent on this particular activity, there is somehow an opportunity cost that needs to be considered... Humbug!
My leisure time costs me no more just because it is spent handloading.
In real life, most people spend several hours per day doing things that earns them no income. This time might be spent watching TV, playing video games, reading, playing golf, sleeping, eating, cooking, watching YouTube, playing with the kids etc. etc.
This is just how it is.
Then, just because someone decides to handload ammunition there is a group of people who feel compelled to insist that when leisure time is spent on this particular activity, there is somehow an opportunity cost that needs to be considered... Humbug!
My leisure time costs me no more just because it is spent handloading.
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