leadcounsel said:
Sadly, you're wrong or lying to inflate your information. From the manufacturer, Dillion:
https://www.dillonprecision.com/cont...catid/1/XL_650
Cost is $1128 for this setup. So, it is more than my example, in terms of cost and production.
So you said $1,000, I used something that actually cost $1,128. Sorry, I didn’t realize that equipment cost was that big of a driver in your calculations.
If you are really serious about having an intellectual discussion, you would at least have bothered to read my post and also noticed that I only used 400 rounds per hour in my calculations to be conservative, NOT the 800 rounds per hour claimed by Dillon. I did that because in my experience (admittedly limited, I’ve only had my XL650 since 1992, so I’ve only got 23 years of experience on it) I can easily do 500 – 600 rounds per hour. So I used 400 to be conservative, since as I pointed out in an earlier post your conclusions are EXTREMELY rate sensitive.
leadcounsel said:
You're clearly only factoring the actual time sitting in front of the press. That's not a fair comparison or calculation. I was also factoring in the lifetime average, which accounts for all those hours picking up brass, cleaning brass, hunting for primers at gun shows, and on and on and on... all unpaid, unproductive hours when not directly pulling the lever and spitting out a bullet. I'm also quite conservative on their capable figure, as these for most products are often inflated. If you spent 10 hours total buying components, cleaning brass, hunting for brass, weighing, etc., but only load for say 4 hours, then you have to divide all ammo produced by 10 hours, not 4.
None of this stuff should be near as big of a problem as you’re making it for someone like you with your experience at lifetime averages and advanced degrees. You can quantify it with 7th grade algebra. Together we can easily develop an equation that quantifies your variables, although I would question your reloading experience since you use 10 hours buying components, cleaning brass, hunting for brass, weighing, etc., for 4 hours of loading.
However, for arguments sake, we will grant that you are an extremely experienced reloader who is well aware of how many hours your processes take you. I bow to your superior knowledge. If you will enlighten me to my errors and provide some of your "lifetime averages" we can adjust our equation to model your process as closely as possible. As a starting point, I’ll use my experience as a baseline.
Let’s clarify a couple of variables that you seem to feel are important before we start:
Picking up brass – outdoor - At all of the outdoor ranges I shoot at informally, EVERYONE picks up their brass. Doesn’t matter whether you reload it, give it away, or throw it away, “picking up brass” time is the same for everyone. In the few cases where someone has just walked away and left their brass, ammo boxes, targets, etc, on the ground, we’ve picked them up as a group, reloaders and non-reloaders alike. At club competitions, everyone picks up brass after each stage and throws it in a bucket. After the match, if you want some brass we split it among everyone. Takes about 5 seconds to hold out your bag and get some brass dumped into it. Takes the non-reloaders that long to throw away their ammo boxes. At major competitions, it's "lost brass" anyway and no shooter picks up their brass. I don’t see any difference between reloaders and non-reloaders here.
Picking up brass – indoor – I don’t shoot much at indoor ranges except in competitions, which are considered “lost brass” – the range keeps the brass. In that case no one picks up brass, a range employee sweeps it away between competitors. At the indoor ranges I’ve shot at informally, everyone sweeps their brass into a dustpan when they’re done. The reloaders dump theirs into their bag and take it home, the non-reloaders dump theirs into a pail and the range sells it. Again, I don’t see any difference between reloaders and non-reloaders here.
Sorting brass – (you didn’t mention this one) I use a system of plastic trays with different size slots in them for the different calibers, don’t remember the name, cost about $20 if I remember correctly. I usually dump all the brass into 5 gallon buckets until the bucket is about full. It takes about 15 minutes to run the full bucket through the sorters, and I believe that a bucket is about 5,000 rounds. So that’s 5,000 rounds / (15 min x 60 sec/min) = 5.56 rounds per second, or .18 seconds per round sorting brass.
Cleaning brass – Tumbler does about 1,000 rounds per bowl. Takes me about 30 seconds to dump a bucket of sorted brass into the tumbler, put on the lid, and turn it on. Takes about a minute to turn it off, take off the lid, and run it through the media separator when it’s done. 1,000 rounds in 90 seconds = 11.11 rounds per second, or .09 seconds per round to clean the brass.
Hunting for primers at gun shows – this is somehow different from “hunting for ammo” at gunshows for non-reloaders? I’ve never hunted for ANYTHING at a gunshow or anywhere, I personally order all my reloading supplies and ammo and stock up when they’re cheap. You’ll have to supply me with a factor for this one.
and on and on and on – you’ll have to supply names and factors for these. I’ve included everything I can think of from getting the brass off the ground to getting it sorted and cleaned and polished and ready for reloading.
So let’s set up our equation:
Picking Up Brass (PUB) = same thing for both the reloaders and non-reloaders I shoot with, I’d call this one zero. You’ll have to give me your take on it.
Cleaning Brass (CB) = .18 seconds for sorting + .09 seconds for cleaning = .27 seconds per round. We’ll keep everything in hours, so that’s .27/3600 = .000075 hours per round.
Hunting For Components (HFC) = I still don’t see the difference between hunting for components and hunting for loaded ammo. If you’re not smart enough to look ahead and stock up, it seems to me that it would be the same for both. Again, I’ll need your help since you obviously see this differently.
On And On And On (OAOAO) = You’ll have to give me these. I’ve gone through everything I can think of from picking up brass, to getting it ready to load, to buying components. But you did mention weighing. I guess you assume that Dillon doesn’t include that in their “rounds per hour” figure. I spend about 30 seconds setting and verifying the weight of the powder charge before I start, and another 30 seconds checking it every couple of hundred rounds. So if I’m loading for an hour (400 rounds) and I spend 1 minute weighing, that’s .15 seconds per round or .000042 hours per round.
Lever Time (LT) = Time actually pulling the lever reloading. Dillon says 800 rounds an hour, I’m still going to use 400. I’m not reloading to try to break any speed records. So Lever Time = 400 rounds per hour, or .0025 hours per round.
So far our reloading equation to calculate the hours spent reloading is:
Number of rounds x (PUB + CB + HFC + OAOAO + LT) = hours spent reloading
For example, for 1,000 rounds, it would be:
1,000 x (0 + .000075 + 0 + .000042 + .0025)
= 1,000 x .00267
= 2.7 hours to load 1,000 rounds.
It’s pretty easy to look at prices and see that the components in reloaded 9mm ammo are about half the cost of the cheapest factory 9mm. Adding the component cost into the economic cost of reloading equation makes it:
((Number of rounds x .00267) x (wage per hour)) + (.5 x factory ammo cost)
Last thing I can think of is equipment cost. We’ll use your Dillon price of $1200 and double it. So equipment cost is $2400.
As I said, I’ve had my Dillon for 23 years. Between 1992 and 2002 I easily shot 2,000 rounds per month. Since then I’ve dropped off to 500 rounds per month. That means that I’ve loaded (10 years x 12 months/year x 2,000) + (13 years x 12 months/year x 500) = 318,000 rounds. We won't include the rounds that my friends, kids, and grandkids have loaded on it. So the amortized cost of my equipment, using your price and doubling it, is $2400 / 318,000 = $0.0075 per round
If we add the equipment into our equation for the reloader, the economic cost of reloading becomes:
((Number of rounds x .00267) x (wage per hour)) + (.5 x factory ammo cost) + (number of rounds x .0075)
The economic cost of NOT reloading is pretty simple. It’s the factory ammo cost.
To determine the economic break-even point of the two methods, you simply set them equal to each other and solve for the wage:
((.00267 x Rounds) x (wage/hr)) + (.5 x factory ammo cost) + (number of rounds x .0075) = factory ammo cost.
7th grade algebra gives us;
Wage/hr = (factory ammo cost – (number of rounds x .0075) – (.5 x factory ammo cost)) / (.00267 x rounds)
Let’s see what the break-even wage is for 9mm, using $180/1,000 for factory ammo cost:
Wage/hr = (180 – (1,000 x .0075) – (.5 x 180)) / (.00267 x 1,000)
= (180 – 7.5 – 90) / 2.67
= $30.90 per hour
Using your numbers for equipment cost and wage, and an extremely conservative rate of production, economically you would have to be making about $31.00 per hour to justify buying your 9mm rather than reloading it.
Again, as I stated in a previous post, your assumptions are extremely sensitive to production rate. For example, if you were to use Dillon’s 800 round/hr production rate with the same factors for sorting, cleaning, etc, the time to produce 1 round would be .00137 instead of .00267 hours, making the break even wage:
Wage/hr = (180 – (1,000 x .0075) – (.5 x 180)) / (.00137 x 1,000)
= (180 – 7.5 – 90) / 1.37
= $60.22 per hour
Hopefully you’ll enlighten me by pointing out my errors and omissions. I’m looking forward to incorporating them into my calculations and experiencing some economic enlightenment!
leadcounsel said:
I picked $30 an hour giving good folks here the benefit of being employable in good jobs, not working at sweeping floors for a living. If you can only earn $11 and hour, then use those numbers.
I would consider that pretty insulting to everyone on here making less than $30 per hour ($60,000 per year). You come across as a self-righteous, highly educated individual with very little common sense or experience at what you’re discussing trying to justify your claims based on your education, which you apparently didn’t understand very well!
But you’ll probably make a very successful lawyer, as you already seem well aware of Carl Sandburg’s First Rule of Law. Since neither the law nor facts are on your side, it appears that you’re now resorting to the third option:
“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell”
Carl Sandburg
Hopefully you'll prove me wrong by pointing out my errors in the above calculations. For example, I used my own experience in amortizing the $2400 in equipment, let me know what you consider to be a reasonable amount of rounds to use in the amortization.
He then went on to talk about weights and scales and how there is only one official scale in the US . If the check weights were not checked there you really have no idea if there are accurate . Just because he was not wrong does not make what he was saying right . The fact the weights were not checked by NASA does not mean anything .
. Nobody puts a cost on everything they do . So why are you picking on reloading . oh no wait , I had friends over to watch the game . Now I must add the cost of the sq footage there cars took up in the drive way . Man , It's just not worth the cost to watch sports at my house on my day off anymore . 