Controlling a suspect
- Thread starter BillCA
- Start date
We have some very good responses and some educational dialog going on here.
RantingRedneck, Powderman, JoeBlackSpade, Lurper and MikeJoneskd get it. It looks like Tanzer and Outcast get it too.
When I talk to people buying a gun for home defense and the subject of "bump in the night" comes up, I like to use this little reminder;
Never go looking for trouble, you might find it.
If a bonafide threat exists in the house before you encounter it, your best tactic is to take a defensive position to protect yourself & family. Call the cops to deal with the BG's while you keep them away from you and your family.
There are times and circumstances that may require modifying this approach.
For instance, you may have a child in a downstairs bedroom. Or you are investigating an unidentifiable noise that doesn't sound like an intruder. Maybe it's a sound from the kitchen that makes you wonder if you forgot to close the window. Or a noise that might be an intruder or it might be the cat knocked over a few tomes in the bookcase. While checking, you discover the intruder. Retreat is an option, though I think many of us might challenge from a corner or behind some object.
Since I'm in a fairly small, single-story townhome, my actions will probably vary from yours. My basic principles are:
Depending on the layout of your house, if the intruder retreats (i.e. he goes downstairs and you hear the door open or slam) do not relax until the PD arrives. If you lose sight of him, you don't know if he has left or not. If you haven't called the PD, do so and let them clear the house. They can bring as many officers and taticool weapons as they need to do the job safely.
Remember the intruder and tell him the police are enroute. Also tell him that if he makes any moves he may be shot.
To get someone prone;
If you have a tactical light, remember that while it blinds him, it also gives your position away as much as your voice.
Do NOT try to cuff the intruder, search them, or even get near them. Do NOT relax until the PD has arrived, then communicate with them clearly. Follow their instructions. If you have any remote light controls, use them when the PD arrives so the house is not totally dark.
RantingRedneck, Powderman, JoeBlackSpade, Lurper and MikeJoneskd get it. It looks like Tanzer and Outcast get it too.
When I talk to people buying a gun for home defense and the subject of "bump in the night" comes up, I like to use this little reminder;
Never go looking for trouble, you might find it.
If a bonafide threat exists in the house before you encounter it, your best tactic is to take a defensive position to protect yourself & family. Call the cops to deal with the BG's while you keep them away from you and your family.
There are times and circumstances that may require modifying this approach.
For instance, you may have a child in a downstairs bedroom. Or you are investigating an unidentifiable noise that doesn't sound like an intruder. Maybe it's a sound from the kitchen that makes you wonder if you forgot to close the window. Or a noise that might be an intruder or it might be the cat knocked over a few tomes in the bookcase. While checking, you discover the intruder. Retreat is an option, though I think many of us might challenge from a corner or behind some object.
Since I'm in a fairly small, single-story townhome, my actions will probably vary from yours. My basic principles are:
- Intruder? Defend from the bedroom, dial 911. State the problem, tell the operator I'm the pudgy gray-haired guy in my BVDs, leave line open.
- Focus, breathe, listen; Likely it will only be 30-90 seconds before he is visible down a short (~5 yard) hall. Focus & breathe to calm self. Listen to see if it sounds like one person or more than one.
- If intruder visible, deep breath and use a command voice to say STOP! DON'T MOVE!. Realize fear will make it sound like Don Knotts going through puberty!
- If intruder makes furtive move, approaches or makes threatening moves, remember to apologize to dispatcher for deafening noises in their earphone.
- If intruder "surrenders" get them prone with arms extended quickly. Assume a 2nd intruder, wait for PD to arrive. Do not focus solely on the prone intruder.
- Communicate to disptacher - may have to yell at the phone on the floor.
- Do NOT engage in converstation or discussion with the intruder. Only issue commands. If they try to converse with you, tell them Shut up! Be Quiet!
- If intruder flees (or it sounds like he did) stay put until the PD arrives.
Depending on the layout of your house, if the intruder retreats (i.e. he goes downstairs and you hear the door open or slam) do not relax until the PD arrives. If you lose sight of him, you don't know if he has left or not. If you haven't called the PD, do so and let them clear the house. They can bring as many officers and taticool weapons as they need to do the job safely.
Remember the intruder and tell him the police are enroute. Also tell him that if he makes any moves he may be shot.
To get someone prone;
- Get your hands up, now! Up all the way. [inspect beltline for weapons]
- Keep your hands up and kneel straight down. [you may need to order him to move 1-2 steps to a clear space.]
- Lay face down on the ground, and spread your arms out [or arms extended over the head in narrow areas]
- Turn your hands palms up. [check for weapons]
- Cross your feet at the ankles.
- Turn your head to the {right/left} [whichever is away from you to avoid visual contact]
- Stay there. Don't Move!
If you have a tactical light, remember that while it blinds him, it also gives your position away as much as your voice.
Do NOT try to cuff the intruder, search them, or even get near them. Do NOT relax until the PD has arrived, then communicate with them clearly. Follow their instructions. If you have any remote light controls, use them when the PD arrives so the house is not totally dark.
Someone commented about getting between the intruder and an exit or the exit. Someone else noted the tactical issues with their home layout putting the BG between them and their kids.
First - if at all possible you want to avoid putting yourself between the BG and the exit. Two reasons. 1) He may really want to leave without a confrontation, but if you're blocking the exit, he may panic and try to go through you anyhow. 2) a prosecutor may tell a jury you put yourself into danger by intentionally cutting off the escape route just so you could shoot the intruder.
In homes that are poorly laid out, such as in Tanzer's case, there aren't many options other than good planning. Placement of the furniture in rooms to reduce hazards and a family plan, such as kids getting on the floor may help.
MyXD40 - a solution for allowing the cops entry to your locked house is as follows;
1. One spare house key or set (knob and deadbolt)
2. One old wire coat hangar
3. One Cyalume lightstick (any color; green or orange work well)
4. Electrical or duct tape.
Cut hangar about 12" to 18" long. Add key(s) and Cyalume stick. Form into a circle and tightly twist ends together, cover with duct tape or electrical tape.
Put this in the safe room in a specific location. Activate light-stick and toss out of bedroom window into the yard. Notify dispatcher that the keys are attached to a glowing lightstick (green, orange, red, etc.) and approximately where to find it.
First - if at all possible you want to avoid putting yourself between the BG and the exit. Two reasons. 1) He may really want to leave without a confrontation, but if you're blocking the exit, he may panic and try to go through you anyhow. 2) a prosecutor may tell a jury you put yourself into danger by intentionally cutting off the escape route just so you could shoot the intruder.
In homes that are poorly laid out, such as in Tanzer's case, there aren't many options other than good planning. Placement of the furniture in rooms to reduce hazards and a family plan, such as kids getting on the floor may help.
MyXD40 - a solution for allowing the cops entry to your locked house is as follows;
1. One spare house key or set (knob and deadbolt)
2. One old wire coat hangar
3. One Cyalume lightstick (any color; green or orange work well)
4. Electrical or duct tape.
Cut hangar about 12" to 18" long. Add key(s) and Cyalume stick. Form into a circle and tightly twist ends together, cover with duct tape or electrical tape.
Put this in the safe room in a specific location. Activate light-stick and toss out of bedroom window into the yard. Notify dispatcher that the keys are attached to a glowing lightstick (green, orange, red, etc.) and approximately where to find it.
IMO, it's far better to die a man than live as a coward.
A man dies only one death, a coward dies a thousand deaths.
But suppose you only hear that one single "bump"?
No breaking glass, just that single "bump"?
Would you still call the police?
I wouldn't.
Could you go back to sleep and rest easy without investigating?
I couldn't.
That's for two reasons:
1) It is a legal libility issue if an police agency actually encourages you to clear your own home and you do get killed....and the agency's lawyers are not about to open themselves up for that lawsuit.
2) Cops think that every non-cop is a total idiot when it comes to guns, self defense, and home defense.
Most of the cops I've met don't think that the average citizen should even own a gun.
So I don't place my faith in the advice of such "experts".
I find it odd that there are men here who are prior military (like myself), or who were once cops, or who participate in all manner of dangerous life threatening pursuits (skydiving, mountain-climbing, scuba-diving, combat sports, and such) but who are afraid to clear their own home when they hear a noise at night.
It's just sad.
I just don't understand folks who claim to be a BTDT and yet they refuse to man up and take responsibility for their own home defense.
Face it, the local PD aint gonna send out the SWAT team to investigate a noise in your home....it'll most likely be some young kid in his twenties...he might have a partner and he might not.
And I can't imagine how I would feel if some fresh faced rookie was sent out and got killed clearing my house for me.
I have the advantage because I know my house better than anyone.
I know every creaking board, every blind turn, and every nook and cranny.
When it comes to clearing my own home there is no better person for the job than myself.
WOW Lurper!
Now that's impressive....only two other people are equal or higher in skill than yourself!!!
Please, tell me who they are, I'm just dying to know.
BikerRN
Excellent point on the "shoot and kill" language. It could be that there are some important considerations, depending on your jurisdiction. Here in Tennessee, the newly enacted castle doctrine creates a presumption of justification if you shoot an intruder in your home, and the dead suspect's estate bears the costs of civil litigation in an unjustified civil suit. That takes a LOT of the stress off of the mind of a homeowner when using a weapon in the home.
But, alas, you're right. It's not that way in many states! You have to be careful what you say to an intruder, because you may be admitting to a premeditated act.
Excellent point on the "shoot and kill" language. It could be that there are some important considerations, depending on your jurisdiction. Here in Tennessee, the newly enacted castle doctrine creates a presumption of justification if you shoot an intruder in your home, and the dead suspect's estate bears the costs of civil litigation in an unjustified civil suit. That takes a LOT of the stress off of the mind of a homeowner when using a weapon in the home.
But, alas, you're right. It's not that way in many states! You have to be careful what you say to an intruder, because you may be admitting to a premeditated act.
rantingredneck
New member
That's one reason I sleep in a pair of gym shorts or other "around the house" shorts. I don't wanna be caught with my pants down.
rantingredneck
New member
Uh, there are more than 100 people on the Earth. A good bit more.
BTW, I'd say his 98% figure is likely spot on.
rantingredneck
New member
You investigate every single noise? You must get up a lot at night. My icemaker would drive you to distraction.
ActivShootr
New member
I forsee the pad-lock on this one too in the near future
As for you "despensers of common sense", keep your bad ideas to yourselves.
As for you "despensers of common sense", keep your bad ideas to yourselves.
At least we can agree on something.
I wasn't talking about the police. I meant organizations like NRA and just about every defensive firearms organization and instructor in the country. Liability has nothing to do with it. Common sense does.
None of those occupations or hobbies bear any relevance to:
1. your ability to clear your house
2. your skill at defensive pistolcraft
3. your knowledge or ability to offer sound, educated advice on the subject
Just because someone was a cop, Ranger, SF, etc. doesn't mean they know what they are talking about when it comes to personal protection in the home or pistolcraft. Fear has nothing to do with it. It is about being smart and safe.
My claims (like my skill level) are easy enough to check and others on this forum have, so they are more than just claims. But, it has nothing to do with "man up" and everything to do with using your brain. Some just can't get beyond their egos. If you can't understand the tactical advantages of waiting for your assailant to come to you and the tactical disadvantages of trying to search them out, then I'm sorry you just don't get it and never will.
rantingredneck
New member
I hope this doesn't get locked. So far this has been kept mostly civil. 
And as BillCA notes it's resulting in some educational dialogue.
I'm a bit disturbed by some of the posters intentions to enter a life or death struggle over a TV or take it upon themselves to do the job of their local PD, but if reading and contributing to the discussion helps work these things through for them all the better. If not, well at least the rest of us tried, and maybe someone else who's quietly lurking in the background can benefit.
And as BillCA notes it's resulting in some educational dialogue. I'm a bit disturbed by some of the posters intentions to enter a life or death struggle over a TV or take it upon themselves to do the job of their local PD, but if reading and contributing to the discussion helps work these things through for them all the better. If not, well at least the rest of us tried, and maybe someone else who's quietly lurking in the background can benefit.
Human life is worth more than inanimate objects. The only item I would shoot to keep from being taken is an operational firearm. Think about it.
No, we don't.
You'd be surprised.
Your opinions are yours, and you are entitled to them. But, just curious...how many houses have YOU cleared? I lost count about my second year in police work.
By the way, just as a reference point, my son and I were talking about clearing houses one day. Now, he is even more qualified to talk about clearing houses than I am--he spent some quality time in Fallujah as a Marine doing the same, and has, undortunately, killed men in close combat while doing so. By close combat, I mean as in AK's vs. M16A2 from across a room, multiple targets.
I asked about clearing a house by himself. HE won't do it. Nor will any Marine that I have met.
I really don't think that you want to call these guys cowards. They might get upset.
XD40, you said you are about to go into police work. Kudos to you.
Do me a favor.
When you get into the academy, pose your point of view about house clearing to your TAC officer. Write us back and let us know about the response, will you?
Just a word of advice.....I'd tend to believe this guy.
Longstreet tried and tried to convince Lee that a defensive posture was best. Lee ignored him and made a grand gesture full of macho posturing by Pickett, and thus the beginning of the end for the confederacy. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it as they say.
I can't imagine clearing my house, I CAN imagine taking my son and climbing out a window and going somewhere where I could communicate to the appropriate LE agency. In the unlikely event I am cornered and can't retreat then I would hunker down and pray to God nobody came through that door.
There are a few things on this planet I would die for, there are even fewer things I would kill for. I value my sleep to much and in the event I shot an unarmed kid climbing through a window I know sleep would be elusive for a very long time.
The call it self defense for a reason, it's all about defense. One of the things I learned over the years is that people with a weapon tend to feel invinciple, sometimes much to their ultimate regret. A gun or knife or tireiron does not make you invinciple, keep that in mind.
I can't imagine clearing my house, I CAN imagine taking my son and climbing out a window and going somewhere where I could communicate to the appropriate LE agency. In the unlikely event I am cornered and can't retreat then I would hunker down and pray to God nobody came through that door.
There are a few things on this planet I would die for, there are even fewer things I would kill for. I value my sleep to much and in the event I shot an unarmed kid climbing through a window I know sleep would be elusive for a very long time.
The call it self defense for a reason, it's all about defense. One of the things I learned over the years is that people with a weapon tend to feel invinciple, sometimes much to their ultimate regret. A gun or knife or tireiron does not make you invinciple, keep that in mind.
I forget who asked, but I'm unclear on deadly force over your property. But the way I see it, I walk downstairs to a BG tryin to jack my plasma..now I'm put into a self defense situation..hmm
Everyone seems to have a good imput. But honestly, I just cant help but laugh at some of your replies. Makes me wonder when someone really DOES break into your house..should be an interesting subject next morning.
and I like how someone said
I like how someone over the internet tries to tell me what I have isn't expensive lol
And dispite whatever anyone says, I will always clear my house. I guess I'm just not scared to protect whats mine.
AND BESIDES, IF YOU'RE TOO SCARED TO PROTECT WHAT'S YOURS, OR TO STAND UP FOR OTHERS, THEN I GUESS THE GUY WHO BROKE INTO YOUR HOUSE (CLEARLY A THREAT TO ANYONE, ANYTIME, IN ANY WAY) HAS THE CHANCE TO GO BACK OUT ONTO THE STREETS. NOW HE'S GOING TO BREAK INTO SOMEONE ELSES HOUSE, OR PERHAPS ROB A STORE, RAPE A WOMAN, KILL A PERSON. HE BELONGS IN JAIL. AND IF YOU HAVE THE CHANCE TO HELP PUT HIM IN JAIL, THEN DON'T YOU THINK YOU SHOULD? THAT WAY SOMEONE ELSE WONT HAVE TO DEAL WITH WHAT YOU HAD TO DEAL WITH, POSSIBLY WORSE?? (SORRY FOR THE CAPS, SOMEONE STOLE MY CAPS LOCK BUTTON. I LEFT MY LAPTOP DOWNSTAIRS AND HEARD A NOISE..AND YEAH..BY THE TIME COPS GOT HERE, TOO LATE! (LOL))
Everyone seems to have a good imput. But honestly, I just cant help but laugh at some of your replies. Makes me wonder when someone really DOES break into your house..should be an interesting subject next morning.
and I like how someone said
I like how someone over the internet tries to tell me what I have isn't expensive lol
And dispite whatever anyone says, I will always clear my house. I guess I'm just not scared to protect whats mine.
AND BESIDES, IF YOU'RE TOO SCARED TO PROTECT WHAT'S YOURS, OR TO STAND UP FOR OTHERS, THEN I GUESS THE GUY WHO BROKE INTO YOUR HOUSE (CLEARLY A THREAT TO ANYONE, ANYTIME, IN ANY WAY) HAS THE CHANCE TO GO BACK OUT ONTO THE STREETS. NOW HE'S GOING TO BREAK INTO SOMEONE ELSES HOUSE, OR PERHAPS ROB A STORE, RAPE A WOMAN, KILL A PERSON. HE BELONGS IN JAIL. AND IF YOU HAVE THE CHANCE TO HELP PUT HIM IN JAIL, THEN DON'T YOU THINK YOU SHOULD? THAT WAY SOMEONE ELSE WONT HAVE TO DEAL WITH WHAT YOU HAD TO DEAL WITH, POSSIBLY WORSE?? (SORRY FOR THE CAPS, SOMEONE STOLE MY CAPS LOCK BUTTON. I LEFT MY LAPTOP DOWNSTAIRS AND HEARD A NOISE..AND YEAH..BY THE TIME COPS GOT HERE, TOO LATE!
(LOL))