Controlling a suspect

[Justme]

Let them go! Unless you have some else backing you up, and BOTH of you are trained well in detaining a potentially dangerous subject, LET THEM GO.

Folks, trust me: you do NOT ever want to be in a situation where you are going through a darkened house or building, looking for someone who may want to KILL you. It's not fun.

+1. I am not by nature a violent person and one of my personal nightmares is shooting a kid by accident. Like he broke into what he thought was uncle joes apartment but the key wasn't under the mat like joe said so he came in the window.

Having said that, I feel fairly confident that I will never hold a person at gunpoint, not least of all because no matter the circumstances since I have no detain and arrest autority I might be guilty of kidnapping. As the young marshal said in that elmore lenard book "The Hot Kid", if I draw my gun I shoot to kill. I don't draw it unless I plan to shoot it, I don't shoot it unless I plan to hit where I aim, and I aim COM. Of course I don't shoot to kill, I shoot to stop the threat, if someone dies as a consequence that is just the law of unintended consequences in action.

 

[easyG]

If you hear the bump in the night, call 911. STAY PUT. Arm yourself, and wait.

I respectfully disagree.

There are simply not enough cops in the nation to investigate every "bump in the night".
If everyone dialed 911 whenever they heard an unusual noise in their home then the average waiting time for a cop to arrive would be about 48 hours!

I say that if you truely consider yourself to be the "king of the castle", then man up and defend it.

 

[OuTcAsT]

If you hear the bump in the night, call 911. STAY PUT. Arm yourself, and wait.

+1 This is EXACTLY the correct response !

If you have children, teach them to either stay in their rooms, or if they're close enough to your room, to come to yours. If they're old enough, and responsible enough, consider arming THEM, with explicit instructions to hold fire until they can identify that the person coming into their room is NOT one of you.

+1 My kids keep their doors closed and are armed, we even have a "code word" for trouble or all-clear.

Make sure that you call 911 immediately. Identify yourself, tell the dispatcher what is happening, describe everyone in your house that SHOULD be there, and tell them who is armed.

STAY ON THE LINE WITH DISPATCH until responding officers arrive.

Ditto ! it is also wise to inform them which rooms you are in.

Folks, trust me: you do NOT ever want to be in a situation where you are going through a darkened house or building, looking for someone who may want to KILL you. It's not fun.

AHHH, the voice of reason, clear as a Bell.

 

[JoeBlackSpade]

You do NOT want your last coherent sight in this world to be seeing the person who killed you headed toward your wife or children.

+5


This is a great thread, however, I thought I'd chime in with something a bit different:

IMO, we all might have a slight tendency towards being one dimensional, from time to time. This is one of those cases. One thing I know is security, and it doesn't come from merely being able to shoot. I've got callouses on my hands from thousands upon thousands of draws, and F2F drills. I STILL don't rely solely on my shooting skills to keep my family safe. If you're relying on your John Wayne gunslinging, as your sole line of defense, without regards to other aspects, then you are out of balance, and guilty of having a "one-dimensional moment".




The reality is that when protecting yourself, there are a few things you can do to increase your level of safety, that rely much less on weapons, and much more on your head. Here are a few suggestions:

1.) Have a plan. Think about everything from your family, to avenues of approach, to a house- fire, a rally point outside in case of emergency, etc. This is the first step.

2.) "Harden" yourself as a target. Start with outside your home. Do you have a bunch of crap in your yard that people can hide behind? Got the Nova still up on blocks by your windows? If so, you might be inviting trouble. Clear spaces by your front, side, and rear doors. Don't leave 5-gallon buckets by your windows. Visually and physically inspect your property EVERY NIGHT, and lock all appropriate latches. Locked windows and doors will stop 90% of home invaders. Make a nightly routine, as you turn down for the evening, and SECURE YOUR PROPERTY. That includes vehicles.

3.) Read the law, or otherwise get informed. You'd be surprised how willing the local sheriff will be to educate you on your rights. Know what your limitations are, and integrate those limits into your home safety plan.

4.) Know where your weapon is, and where the ammunition is- and keep them accessible, yet secure. There's no point in protecting your family, if you are going to leave your pistol out carelessly, so your 5-year old can pick it up, and knock off his little sister.

5.) Keep a phone by your bed. Believe it or not, so many people will wait until a danger presents itself before going off to find the phone. In the age of deep couches, late movies, and portable phones, you don't want to be stumbling around in the dark when you need that phone. Think it through, and incorporate COMMUNICATIONS into your plan.

6.) Develop a "duress" message. For example, if someone is being held at gunpoint, or they are otherwise in trouble, develop a message that can be delivered covertly, by phone, to let you know. For my family, the duress would be something like:

"Hi honey/dad. Everything is fine. Just working on my Chinese language project"

In such a case, I know that my family is not working on any Chinese language project, therefore they are trying to alert me that they are in trouble. The criminal would be none the wiser. This might be applicable by phone, etc. If your family routine has patterns that might be exploited by a criminal, see if a duress situation might be good for you.

7.) Lighting and Visibility. Obviously, if your place is very well lit, you are more likely to be safe, than if you leave numerous dark places for a criminal to hide. Try installing inexpensive motion-sensing flood lights that would normally remain off, unless someone enters your property. The sudden burst from a flood light will scare off many would-be thieves, and send them searching for a "softer" target.

8.) Consider a pet dog. If your floodlights fail, and you are fall-down drunk, your dog will still hear an intruder and bark, alerting both you AND them.




These simple steps can provide you with a more complete security plan than just "draw the ole' Mossberg". While I am a fierce weapons enthusiast, and a competent shooter, I draw on the knowledge that the majority of thieves aren't looking for confrontation- at least initially. By making your home as uninviting for an intruder as possible, you can take away the only two things he has: The element of surprise, and the ability to move undetected.

 

[rantingredneck]

JoeBlackSpade:

Excellent points all.

I'll add to this one in particular though:

5.) Keep a phone by your bed. Believe it or not, so many people will wait until a danger presents itself before going off to find the phone. In the age of deep couches, late movies, and portable phones, you don't want to be stumbling around in the dark when you need that phone. Think it through, and incorporate COMMUNICATIONS into your plan.

A lot of people, me included, change cell phones every couple of years. Those old cell phones still have a use though. Keep one in your bedroom so you can dial 911 if your landline is disabled either by an intruder or technical/weather difficulties.

Even a cell phone without a service plan attached to it is capable of dialing 911. Keep one of your old ones in your bedroom with a power cord plugging it in.

Edited to add: We also have one of those "old fashioned" corded telephones in our master bedroom.

 

[Lurper]

Why would I ever go investigate a bump in the night? That's what my police are paid to do. If someone is in my house, they are an immediate threat to my life. Doesn't matter whether it is the drunken kid next door or some crackhead.

In AZ, I do not have the legal (nor IMO moral) requirement to warn them or give them commands. As stated several times above, the best policy is to stay in your safe room, dial 911, stay on the phone until police arrive. If someone who has already entered my home then enters my bedroom, they are definately a threat and I am not going to try to "control" them. I am not trained (as an LEO although I am physically capable) to restrain suspects, nor am I required to. Nor would I really want to get into a situation where that happened.

But to answer Bill's question:
KNOW YOUR STATE'S LAWS!
If he doesn't comply, shoot. Non compliance is a direct threat to your life. How do you know he is turning to run and not turning to draw an unseen weapon? If he comes toward you, clearly that is a threat.
If he complies:
Have him prone out on the floor face down arms out to the sides. Then you move to a differnt location where he cannot see you but you can still cover him.

Lastly:
KNOW YOUR STATE'S LAWS!
In many states, you are shielded from civil suit if your shooting is justified. So, please quit making those blanket statements about losing everything you own to the suspect's survivors. That is not necessarily true.

+1 to Joe and Ranting's posts.

 

[easyG]

Why would I ever go investigate a bump in the night? That's what my police are paid to do.

Again, in case you missed it before....

There are simply not enough cops in the nation to investigate every "bump in the night".
If everyone dialed 911 whenever they heard an unusual noise in their home then the average waiting time for a cop to arrive would be about 48 hours!


It's the same problem when eveyone calls the EMS for every little booboo and owwie.
The EMS is busy attending and hauling folks with minor injuries while others are dying of serious medical conditions.
Just last week we had a woman call 911 for a leg injury.
Once the EMT's got there it turned out that the woman had broken her toe!
While those EMT's were busy attending her toe injury someone else was probably having a heart attack!

Again, don't abuse the 911 system by calling the police for every little odd noise you hear in your home.
Be a man and deal with it yourself.

 

[Tanzer]

Refer to original Thread topic if confused about my post. Yes Capitulate is a big word

My apologies. Sometimes I forget that many of the members of this forum may not be LEO or Vet. I mistake many yrs of training for common sense and that is where I have gone wrong here. I recognize difference of opinion as a right that each of us has and to force mine upon others is usually not to their benefit or mine. I will try not to be so argumentative in my future posts.

Condescention is nothing more than tactical name calling. It won't make your point more valid. If you insist that those who view an intruder who has broken into their home as a definite threat are mistaken, then disagree. That's what the forum is about. Calling them homicidal is underestimating them, and pegging them as closed-minded. Keep it civil, and they may be on your side in the next thread. This is exactly what started the problem on the tac light thread.

SilentArmy, you LEO? If so, at least you have experince on how to handle those situations..so really you're a teacher, and everyone else is your students!

:barf:
Sorry for the hypocracy, but that had to be done.

Does anyone disagree that the BG should be able to flee? Not many if at all.
Does anyone disagree with the idea that engagement is a last resort/life saving only move? Not me, let the cops do their job. I'm busy making sure my family is safe. That's enough to think about, and my family is worth more than my posessions.
Does anyone disagree that noone has any right to break into their home? Breaking into my home is a bad idea. I'm not going hunting for them, but we'll most likely meet up. Let me make it abundantly clear that I will protect life above all.
The second worse thing that could ever happen to me is to have to shoot another human being. The worst thing would be not stopping them from hurting someone I love. If that makes me somehow "homicidal" in anyone's opinion, then I recant; call me all the names you want.

 

[Yellowfin]

What is your response when he starts apologizing with the "wrong house" excuse?

"You're damn right it is!" or "That's YOUR problem."

Would your response be different if he started talking about the trouble you'd be in for "shooting an unarmed man"?

"That doesn't concern YOU, now does it?"

 

[Lurper]

Again, don't abuse the 911 system by calling the police for every little odd noise you hear in your home.

It's not abuse. It is their job and what our tax dollars pay for. Adovcating that civilians clear their house whenever they suspect someone may be inside is fool's advice. Ignoring the fact that every professional organization advocates the idea of retreating to a safe room and calling the police, it just lacks common sense! Most people have neither the experience nor the training to do it safely. Your greatest weapon is your brain, use it!

Be a man and deal with it yourself.

Some think with their ego, some with their brain. Even with my level of skill and training, I will not clear my home. It isn't the smart thing to do. That is what the police get paid to do.

 

[easyG]

It's not abuse. It is their job and what our tax dollars pay for.

That is what the police get paid to do.

No, that's not what police are paid to do.

Police are paid to fight crime....not investigate every little noise in your home only to discover that a magnet fell off of your fridge, or that the wind knocked over one of your deck chairs, or that your cat killed a mouse in the basement.

Do you call the EMS everytime you get sick or injured?
After all, is'nt coming to your rescue exactly what they're "paid to do"?

....it just lacks common sense!

Common sense is not wasting police resources just because one is too scared to investigate a strange noise himself.

I can tell you this...our forefathers were a heck of a lot more courageous than the men today (and use the word "men" very loosely in this instance).

 

[rantingredneck]

Clearing the home vs. Assuring safety of loved ones.

Some of us have to consider the safety and security of our children in the event of the dreaded "bump in the night".

Luckily, in my case, I can secure my son and daughter's rooms from the doorway to my bedroom. Wife on the phone to 911, me in the doorway with firearm and flashlight in case it's needed. Wife has gun too.

If I have to venture down the hallway a few feet to get my daughter from her room then it's back to the bedroom. My son's room is straight across from ours so it's easier to get him. I encounter anyone in the process that shouldn't be there and they present a threat, see my earlier posts.

That's as far as I'll go in "clearing" my house. Simply to make sure my kids are safe.

I know this thread grew out of the locked tac light thread and I didn't post in that one, but I'll give my .02 on lights. I have them but will only turn them on if absolutely necessary. I don't want them giving away position if it can be avoided. There's one mounted on my 870 and one mounted on my PC9. There's one by my P345 as well.

I like the little plug in night lights positioned in strategic locations in the living room/foyer area. From my designated position in the bedroom doorway, that gives some backlight to those areas and anyone who may be there. Makes identifying friend/foe and target acquisition (if needed) easier without relying on flashlights.

It's possible that they (along with the exterior lights) may deter a break in in the first place.

 

[Manedwolf]

Be a man and deal with it yourself.

Future Darwin Award right there.

"Do you have a statement for the press, officer?"

"Well, at this time, we believe the homeowner surprised a burglar, and from the wound pattern, someone else shot the homeowner from behind, possibly an accomplice..."

BARRICADE. Get your family behind you. That's the only smart thing to do!

 

[mikejonestkd]

Make your own choices gentlemen and ladies but for me...

Outside : I will not detain a criminal outside my house, the cops and dogs can go chase him. My job is to stay alive and not get myself or other innocents hurt.

Inside the house: My family's bedroom are upstairs, if we hear an obvious ' bump in the night' downstairs then the police are going to get the call. it is their job,that is what they are trained for and thay is what they are paid for. I will inform the intruder that the police are on the way and that they need to leave NOW. If they run out the front door then I have accomplished the most important task - making sure my family is safe.

If the intruder decides to come upstairs then they will be dealt with in a different manner, right there on the spot, then the police will take the report.


BTW: I love the testosterone pumping lines like " Be a man and take care of it yourself "

Put that on your tombstone, your family will appreciate it...LOL

just my 2 cents.

 

[MyXD40]

you know..I hate to be the smart one here, let me knock a lil common sense into this topic.

Ok you hear a bump in the night, as some of you say, you call 911. Now, you're upstairs in your room, scared, thinking someones in your house. You call the cops. Cops bust in your front door thinking theres someone in your house...now you have a busted front door, just becasue the wind was blowing and a trash can got knocked over.

now for the people who will respond "cops wont bust down your door"..ok so they are going to wait outside, for YOU to walk through your home? I dont think cops are going to investigate, or even be able to fully go around your home to find any and all possibly entry/exit ways, small or huge. So now you have to walk downstairs in your house to unlock the door so cops can come inot your house..

I think I'll clear my house. I have some nice expensive toys in my house that I can't live without. If someone tries to jack them, I dont want to wait for insurance to pay me back and go a few weeks without my plasma tv, or my laptops. Nope not me!

 

[rantingredneck]

I have some nice expensive toys in my house that I can't live without. If someone tries to jack them, I dont want to wait for insurance to pay me back and go a few weeks without my plasma tv, or my laptops. Nope not me!

Still curious as to what your particular state's laws are concerning use of deadly force to protect property. I know what mine are. They can have the damn TV, I ain't going to prison for drawing down on them over it.

I think we're all using the term "bump in the night" pretty broadly but I don't think anyone's gonna call the cops when the family cat passes gas. You hear a bump and wake up. You listen intently for a minute and hear the front door opening or glass breaking or voices or the sounds of someone rummaging through your living room, well then you arm yourself and call the cops.

You hear the windchimes bumping against the back door, go back to sleep. Then move the windchimes in the morning.

 

[Tanzer]

Again, don't abuse the 911 system by calling the police for every little odd noise you hear in your home.
Be a man and deal with it yourself.

I think I see the point here. There's a definite distinction between a bump and a thud in the night. Having the door knocked down is not a bump in the night. Time to call the cops.
Just because my dogs are barking does not merit a call. They'll bark at anything - skunks, neighbors coming home etc. In this case, I see no harm in grabbing my weapon and carefully scoping out the house so I can get back to sleep.

I think I'll clear my house. I have some nice expensive toys in my house that I can't live without

Now that would go well on a tombstone.

 

[Lurper]

Common sense is not wasting police resources just because one is too scared to investigate a strange noise himself.

It is not a "waste" of police resources. It is a wise and legitimate use.

You can tell a lot about people's experience and qualifications by their comments. In spite of the fact that every professional organization and most legitimate experts advocate waiting in your safe room for the police - not clearing your home, there are those who insist on dispensing thier own "expert" advice. It would be interesting to see their qualifications and what they think makes their opinion more valid than said organizations.

I can tell you this...our forefathers were a heck of a lot more courageous than the men today (and use the word "men" very loosely in this instance).

I find it amusing when people who cannot attack the message choose to attack the messenger - as if that invalidates any argument. You would do well to not disparage those who's qualifications you are not aware of. As far as manliness goes, I think the fact that I have BTDT more than once and my commendations speak for themselves.

you know..I hate to be the smart one here, let me knock a lil common sense into this topic.

Funny how you make this statement then reduce the scenario below the level of logic. A trash can knocked over is a far cry from the sound of a door being kicked in or someone rummaging through your house. I find it laughable that people advocate 1. not calling the police if you think someone is outside of your house 2. going out to investigate. Think about it: the professionals who do those things for a living do it in TEAMS, not individuals. There is a reason for that. There is also a reason why these same people and organizations advocate not clearing your house. If this is your idea of common sense, have at it!

Now, you're upstairs in your room, scared, thinking someones in your house.

Again, it is a question of using your most potent weapon: your brain, not your ego. Bravery has nothing to do with it. Nor does skill or training. I have a higher level of skill than 98% of the population, lots of training and experience. Yet, I still would not clear my house. There is nothing in my house worth dying for. That is real common sense.

 

[BikerRN]

Originally posted by Samurai

There are two applications here: Out in the street vs. In your home.

When out in the street, there's no need (or legal justification) for holding the suspect. If you can leave, you leave. If you can't leave (and imminent death or serious bodily injury is feared), you shoot until you can leave (threat is neutralized). Either way, after the threat is neutralized, RUN!

When in your home, after an area is secured, and the suspect is surrendering, the only training you really need to do is to learn to raise the intensity of your voice, while remaining calm and in control. Order the suspect to the ground, with his arms and legs spread out flat. Warn him/her that if he/she moves, you will "shoot and kill" them. (I like "shoot and kill." It rings home alot better than, "I will fire," or other such language.) Call the cops, and wait. Keep far enough distance that the suspect cannot reach you, but stay close enough that you can shoot accurately if you need to.

If there's a gun, it's a different situation. Order the gun tossed aside, slowly. Remind the suspect that if he moves, you will "shoot and kill" him. From there, if he does not immediately comply with your request to lose the weapon and lie down, shoot. Threat is present.


My Response
Oh boy! After reading through this I had to go back and read it again.

On the street you are telling people that if they get in to a gunfight and have to defend themselves, to run away. I'm sorry, running is what the guilty do. It makes you look very guilty if you RUN. The guilty run away, the justified stay to face their accusers. There is nothing wrong with seeking cover or going to a "safe location" but it doesn't need to be too far away either.

In your home you use the word "Shoot and Kill". Please tell me you were being sarcastic, but I doubt it. If the intruder flees from the home, let him/her go. You don't need to have a "conversation" with an intruder, but CLEAR, SHORT, CONCISE commands need to be given.

STOP
DO NOT MOVE
SET THE WEAPON DOWN

Those are the kinds of commands I'm referring to. Nowhere do I say, "I will shoot and kill you." If you haven't learned this yet you need to, "You do not shoot to kill, only to STOP the action that is threatening you. Another problem I have is, you tell the suspect that you will "shoot and kill them" then order them to move. Guess what, Premeditated Murder.

After this example I would have a hard time believing anything you say if I was on a jury. I do not mean this as a personal attack on you, but if someone reading this is not well versed in self defense and the law I would hate to see them "hung out to dry" by the judicail system after reading what you posted, if they did what you said to do.

I have had the opportunity to hold a loaded firearm on more than one person. If I did what you suggest I would've been in prison after the first time. God I hate bad advice, no matter where it comes from.

 

[Tanzer]

Powderman,
Your post #37 is good logic where applicable as is;

There is nothing in my house worth dying for. That is real common sense.

Provided of course that Lurper meant material things, not family, as is I'm sure the case.
My house is unfortunately flawed by design and thus cannot render itself to your point(s).
If the BG enters through the side door, he enters a large common area in which is a doorway leading to the hallway for the bedrooms. Once in that doorway, he cuts me off from the kids rooms, with my son's door directly behind him, making a poor backdrop. My only choice is to guard that doorway to prevent entry, and the only effective cover is the kitchen. This leaves me basically meeting him where he entered.
One problem for him is the two dogs. One a pretty harmless (but really loud) Black Lab, and the other a Border-Chow mix with more moves than Jackie Chan. This nut would go after a tiger, though you wouldn't know it 'cuz he's so cute. **right baby?, who's daddy's boy? awww** Oops, did I say that out loud??