They torched the cabin he was in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sisVskohj1k
At least they seem pretty sure they killed the right person.
At least they seem pretty sure they killed the right person.
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Christopher Dorner is only ONE man.
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Double Naught Spy
New member
They torched the cabin he was in:
Wow, that department will undoubtedly be buying somebody a new cabin, or at least they should There seem to be some very nasty precedents being set by California law enforcement engaging in shoot first and torch implementations. I realized that as the LAPD spokesperson said that the cops are under a lot of tension right now, but they are THE professionals who are supposed to be able to handle such matters. None of this is confidence inspiring.
ScottRiqui
New member
I'm sure the story is still developing, but the only article I've read so far has the cabin catching fire after police set off "smoke grenades" inside.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
On this recording from a reporter on the scene, police are heard yelling variations of "Burn him out"... "Burn that mother---" ... before a female reporter's very calm voice says "Police officers... understandably upset..."
This audio, apparently recorded from a police-band scanner, records communications by officers surrounding the cabin. It appears that police deliberately set the cabin on fire, and that they ordered fire fighters to stay back until the building was fully engulfed.
It appears that they waited for the building to collapse before bringing in firefighters. I suppose you could argue that it was for their safety, but... still.
This audio, apparently recorded from a police-band scanner, records communications by officers surrounding the cabin. It appears that police deliberately set the cabin on fire, and that they ordered fire fighters to stay back until the building was fully engulfed.
Male voice: "Alright, Steve, we're gonna go, ah, we're gonna go forward with the plan with, ah, with the burner."
[unintelligible]
Male voice: "We want it, ah, like we talked about."
Male voice:"Seven burners deployed and we have a fire."
Female voice: "Copy seven burners deployed and we have a fire."
<snip>
Male voice: "Guys, be ready on the four side, we have fire in the front, he
might come out the back."
Male voice:"Open on the four side, remember your backdrops."
Male voice: "Contact Fire, they're staging on the 38 and Glass Road, can you
have them bring an engine down here?"
Male voice: "[unintelligible] one shot fired from inside the residence."
Female voice: "Copy one shot fired from inside the residence. Confirming you still want Fire, Number One?"
Male voice: "Roll in and stage."
Female voice: "Copy they're staged at 38 and Glass."
Male voice: "[unintelligible] Fire'll be staging at the first contact with the
first armored unit out there. They'll be a quarter out."
Female voice: "Copy thanks."
Male voice: "61 Lincoln to all units, all perimeter units, stand by, maintain
your discipline."
[unintelligible]
Male voice: "That's affirmative on the number four side fully involved."
Male voice: "[unintelligible] number 2 and 4 side fully engulfed, fire moving
to 3 now."
Female voice: "Copy number 2 and 4 fully engulfed."
Male voice(2): "[unintelligible] starting to collapse?"
Male voice: "Affirm. Give me some time here, we're not, we're still not there
yet, I still have the 2-3 corner that is still, ah, vulnerable."
Male voice(2): "10-4, we're just bringing Fire in, about 200 yards out, your
call."
Male voice: "Copy."
Male voice: "[unintelligible] 61 Lincoln, 61 Charlie, you ready for Fire?"
Male voice(2): "61 Charlie, 61 Lincoln, that's negative, I still don't have
adequate penetration on the 2-3, or the 2-4, and I still have live ammo
poppin'"
[unintelligible]
Male voice(2): "Copy 3-4 is fully engulfed."
[unintelligible]
Male voice: "[unintelligible] goin' off"
Female voice: "Copy more ammo is goin' off?"
Male voice: "Hey John, do these cabins have built-up[?] areas? That's
something to consider."
Male voice: "Affirmative. I'm told that there's a basement in this cabin."
[unintelligible]
Male voice: "We want it, ah, like we talked about."
Male voice:"Seven burners deployed and we have a fire."
Female voice: "Copy seven burners deployed and we have a fire."
<snip>
Male voice: "Guys, be ready on the four side, we have fire in the front, he
might come out the back."
Male voice:"Open on the four side, remember your backdrops."
Male voice: "Contact Fire, they're staging on the 38 and Glass Road, can you
have them bring an engine down here?"
Male voice: "[unintelligible] one shot fired from inside the residence."
Female voice: "Copy one shot fired from inside the residence. Confirming you still want Fire, Number One?"
Male voice: "Roll in and stage."
Female voice: "Copy they're staged at 38 and Glass."
Male voice: "[unintelligible] Fire'll be staging at the first contact with the
first armored unit out there. They'll be a quarter out."
Female voice: "Copy thanks."
Male voice: "61 Lincoln to all units, all perimeter units, stand by, maintain
your discipline."
[unintelligible]
Male voice: "That's affirmative on the number four side fully involved."
Male voice: "[unintelligible] number 2 and 4 side fully engulfed, fire moving
to 3 now."
Female voice: "Copy number 2 and 4 fully engulfed."
Male voice(2): "[unintelligible] starting to collapse?"
Male voice: "Affirm. Give me some time here, we're not, we're still not there
yet, I still have the 2-3 corner that is still, ah, vulnerable."
Male voice(2): "10-4, we're just bringing Fire in, about 200 yards out, your
call."
Male voice: "Copy."
Male voice: "[unintelligible] 61 Lincoln, 61 Charlie, you ready for Fire?"
Male voice(2): "61 Charlie, 61 Lincoln, that's negative, I still don't have
adequate penetration on the 2-3, or the 2-4, and I still have live ammo
poppin'"
[unintelligible]
Male voice(2): "Copy 3-4 is fully engulfed."
[unintelligible]
Male voice: "[unintelligible] goin' off"
Female voice: "Copy more ammo is goin' off?"
Male voice: "Hey John, do these cabins have built-up[?] areas? That's
something to consider."
Male voice: "Affirmative. I'm told that there's a basement in this cabin."
It appears that they waited for the building to collapse before bringing in firefighters. I suppose you could argue that it was for their safety, but... still.
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It appears that they waited for the building to collapse before bringing in firefighters. I suppose you could argue that it was for their safety, but... still.
There's is no ' but...still'.
As long as there is even a remote chance that Dorner was alive or capable of harming one of the Firefighters, the obvious correct call is NOT to send them near harms way.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
Here's a recent example, from elsewhere in Southern California:Lordy123 said:I don't think chemical smoke bombs can cause a fire, if I'm wrong someone correct me!
Tear Gas Started House Fire at Standoff: Sheriff
A tear gas canister ignited a fire at a City Terrace area home surrounded by SWAT officers as part of a standoff Wednesday morning, according to sheriff's deputies.
<snip>
"We received a call of a person firing his gun," said Los Angeles Sheriff's Department Sgt. Jose Uribe. "We're trying to make contact with the subject."
The fire, later attributed to tear gas, started about 8:45 a.m. and was extinguished shortly after 9 a.m. Aerial video showed firefighters on the roof and walking in and out of the home.
The man was believed to be the only person in the house at the time, Uribe said.
Note that in this case, the fire was promptly put out, despite the officers' belief that there was an armed man inside.<snip>
"We received a call of a person firing his gun," said Los Angeles Sheriff's Department Sgt. Jose Uribe. "We're trying to make contact with the subject."
The fire, later attributed to tear gas, started about 8:45 a.m. and was extinguished shortly after 9 a.m. Aerial video showed firefighters on the roof and walking in and out of the home.
The man was believed to be the only person in the house at the time, Uribe said.
Note that in this case, the fire was promptly put out, despite the officers' belief that there was an armed man inside.
Vanya,
Having had a bit of experience in this area, I would be very surprised if firemen were sent inside the house or even on the roof of the house in the prior incident you posted without some kind of intel. on the whereabouts or threat level of the perp involved. Just not proper protocol.
There have been incidents in which firefighters have been escorted by LE into certain situation but most of those have been hostage situations and such.
Calling all current Firefighters/LEO members here...correct me if I'm wrong!
Too, I may be wrong but in the story you presented , as often happens, I'm thinking there may be a few details left out by the reporters in that story.
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Evan Thomas
Inactive
Shortwave, what you say makes sense, given that the first rule for emergency responders is not to put themselves at risk.
But when firefighters were allowed on the scene is a secondary issue. My main point is that the recordings make clear that the intent of "deploying seven burners" was to set the cabin on fire, rather than to force Mr. Dorner out by means of the tear gas in the canisters. This is even more apparent if you listen to the calm tone of the officer reporting that the building is on fire.
But when firefighters were allowed on the scene is a secondary issue. My main point is that the recordings make clear that the intent of "deploying seven burners" was to set the cabin on fire, rather than to force Mr. Dorner out by means of the tear gas in the canisters. This is even more apparent if you listen to the calm tone of the officer reporting that the building is on fire.
Rifleman1952
New member
The term "burner" has been used as slang for tea gas canister among law enforcement officers I have known and worked with. Let's not jump to conclusions before all the facts are in.
Willie Sutton
Moderator
Is burning a fugitive out, not an approved police tactic?
No, "waiting him out" is an approved police tactic. Only so much food is inside... you just set up camp and wait. Might be a spell, but that's the right thing to do.
What they did instead is a criminal act, just as heinous as the crimes that were perpetrated by the "bad guy". Naturally the guys who set the fire think otherwise. But in the light of rational thought, they should have just waited him out.
Willie
.
No, "waiting him out" is an approved police tactic. Only so much food is inside... you just set up camp and wait. Might be a spell, but that's the right thing to do.
What they did instead is a criminal act, just as heinous as the crimes that were perpetrated by the "bad guy". Naturally the guys who set the fire think otherwise. But in the light of rational thought, they should have just waited him out.
Willie
.
I posited this on the Michael Brown Show a couple of days ago. If this is what happens with a single disgruntled shooter, what would happen if there were three to five man cadres throughout the country?
The LAPD and other areas spent untold thousands and possibly millions of dollars on this single manhunt for a single man.
Dorner was undone by the mechanical breakdown of his truck and his inability to tie a decent restraint. The maid got loose and ran to the police who were only a couple of hundred yards from the house.
The LAPD and other areas spent untold thousands and possibly millions of dollars on this single manhunt for a single man.
Dorner was undone by the mechanical breakdown of his truck and his inability to tie a decent restraint. The maid got loose and ran to the police who were only a couple of hundred yards from the house.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I don't think chemical smoke bombs can cause a fire, if I'm wrong someone correct me!"
Yes, they can. They generate a significant amount of heat. The stuff that creates the smoke actually is burning inside the body of the grenade.
Yes, they can. They generate a significant amount of heat. The stuff that creates the smoke actually is burning inside the body of the grenade.
The term "burner" has been used as slang for tea gas canister among law enforcement officers I have known and worked with. Let's not jump to conclusions before all the facts are in.
Then you need to listen to THIS LINK which makes it clear that there is a flame thrower on the tactical vehicle that was used to tear down the walls of that house.
At 1:28 they state "The burner is deployed and we have a fire." This is confirmed by a female voice which states "Copy 7, burner's deployed and we have a fire."
Then listen to the audio of the cops demanding that the house be burned HERE.
"Burn that <distorted> out!", "Burn that f---in' house down!", "Burn it down!", and "Get goin' right now. F---in' burn this motherf---er!"
Rifleman1952
New member
Dorner was not passively seated waiting to be talked into surrender. He was actively shooting and highly determined to take as many law enforcement officers with him as he could. Lets remember that Dorner had already murdered four people, and promised to kill many, many more. The fact that some officers were highly emotional and openly voiced a hope the SOB was dead or dying does not mean that Dorner was murdered. Had any one of us been there, engaged in the firefight with Dorner and with his bullets flying at us; we would have been glad he was dead too.
I have worked closely with law enforcement officers for 30 years, in different counties and jurisdictions and never knew of one...not one...to carry an incendiary device in their vehicle.
I have worked closely with law enforcement officers for 30 years, in different counties and jurisdictions and never knew of one...not one...to carry an incendiary device in their vehicle.
But when firefighters were allowed on the scene is a secondary issue. My main point is that the recordings make clear that the intent of "deploying seven burners" was to set the cabin on fire, rather than to force Mr. Dorner out by means of the tear gas in the canisters. This is even more apparent if you listen to the calm tone of the officer reporting that the building is on fire.
_______
Understand your point Vanya.
My comments were only addressing why the firefighters were not fighting the fire till it was felt completely safe for them to do so without harm from Dorner.
As of yet, I have no comment on whether the fire was set intentionally or not. But IMO, the issue of using seven canisters wouldn't seem to be a direct connection of LE's intent to intentionally set the house ablaze given the way the house was constructed(looked like it was constructed in a T formation), the fact it had a basement and LE not knowing whether Dorner had a mask or not.
Again, other then to say I'm glad it's over, that Dorner met the fate he more then likely knew he would and no more innocent lives were lost, just to many unknown details for me to comment.
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Double Naught Spy
New member
I have worked closely with law enforcement officers for 30 years, in different counties and jurisdictions and never knew of one...not one...to carry an incendiary device in their vehicle.
While not as common today as 30 years ago, many cops still carry road flares.
In the youtube link zxcvbob posted, you can clearly hear officers say "Burn it down."
Is burning a fugitive out, not an approved police tactic? Except for the property damage it isnt that different from just shooting the guy which is allowed.
Not only not approved at Willie noted, but once started, especially in a forest environment, fires can be difficult or impossible to control.
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