From what little facts I've heard I can't condem the LAPD. Dorner had already killed and planned to kill again. He was firing on police. I'm all for do whatever it takes to kill the SOB with no further casuallties to the good guys. If that means intentionally burning him alive, do it! Heck guys, he was threatening wives & children!
Christopher Dorner is only ONE man.
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Spats McGee
Administrator
While I have not had time to go forth onto the web and read the reports about this incident, from what I've seen here, there still appears to be alot that remains unknown. Were there hostages? Was Dorner firing at officers? Has it been confirmed that Dorner was even in the building? Even if he was, I'm unaware of any tactical response protocol that includes burning down a building around a suspect.
While I understand the officers' urge to "get" Dorner, it's undisputed that he had not faced a trial of a jury of his peers. I have very, very grave reservations about police carrying out summary executions.
I will also caution everyone posting in this thread to avoid getting caught up in some of the bloodlust surrouding this event in their postings.
While I understand the officers' urge to "get" Dorner, it's undisputed that he had not faced a trial of a jury of his peers. I have very, very grave reservations about police carrying out summary executions.
I will also caution everyone posting in this thread to avoid getting caught up in some of the bloodlust surrouding this event in their postings.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
On an emotional level, yes, it's hard to condemn them.
On the level of professionalism, not so much. The officers directly involved in Mr. Dorner's death were not LAPD, and it's chilling to hear them shouting "Burn the mother---", etc. It's even more chilling that they then did exactly that, rather than waiting him out, as Willie Sutton notes above. I don't know if it amounts to a crime, given that deadly force was clearly already being used, but deliberately trying to burn someone alive is... just nasty.
On the level of professionalism, not so much. The officers directly involved in Mr. Dorner's death were not LAPD, and it's chilling to hear them shouting "Burn the mother---", etc. It's even more chilling that they then did exactly that, rather than waiting him out, as Willie Sutton notes above. I don't know if it amounts to a crime, given that deadly force was clearly already being used, but deliberately trying to burn someone alive is... just nasty.
Exactly. Well said, Spats.Spats McGee said:
34.186196, -116.912988 is the approximate location of the cabin where Dorner was allegedly cornered and killed.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=34.186196,+-116.912988&hl=en&ll=34.186725,-116.914079&z=19
The address of the cabin complex, while not very helpful, is 40700 7 Oaks Road, Angelus Oaks, CA 92305
Glass Rd at Highway 38 was apparently blocked off by LE.
For reference, the earlier location where he tied up two people in their "cabin", and whose truck he stole when fleeing, was in a more populated area of big bear, reported as the 1200 block of Club View Drive. It looks like it's opposite the golf green.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=1250...230201,-116.861755&spn=0.004303,0.007526&z=18
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=34.186196,+-116.912988&hl=en&ll=34.186725,-116.914079&z=19
The address of the cabin complex, while not very helpful, is 40700 7 Oaks Road, Angelus Oaks, CA 92305
Glass Rd at Highway 38 was apparently blocked off by LE.
For reference, the earlier location where he tied up two people in their "cabin", and whose truck he stole when fleeing, was in a more populated area of big bear, reported as the 1200 block of Club View Drive. It looks like it's opposite the golf green.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=1250...230201,-116.861755&spn=0.004303,0.007526&z=18
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
They just updated the playbook from the Philadelphia PD.Spats McGee said:
Remember MOVE? 1985? http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-05-11-philadelphia-bombing_x.htm
Spats McGee
Administrator
Nope. Didn't remember THAT one. 
or maybe that should be
or maybe that should be Evan Thomas
Inactive
Nor did I. Thanks (sort of) for the reminder.
Random points....
To answer a few posts here, which drifted into how to buy a sound surpresser & take it the same day,
,
This tragic incident reminded me of Marcus Wynn's 2002 novel; No Other Option. That plot is a lot like a Dormer.
A highly trained covert ops/SF soldier goes "off the rez" & tears across the midwest US. The rapist/murder is tracked by his close friend & fellow spec ops commando. Wynn is a highly trained security expert & former US special operations/FAA Sky Marshal.
I read another good novel in the mid 2000s with a storyline about 2 1st grade NYPD detectives who are forced to track down a retired NY State Police Captain. The retired cop is 62 but looks 32, has training & weapons and goes on a rampage when his son is murdered.
To my understanding, .50BMG is not allowed in CA by citizens. Barret Intl refused to sell or market .50 rifles & weapons to any CA law enforcement or public safety.
As for Willie's post, Dormer has a valid point but he's hardly worth any praise or admiration. He's a ruthless killer who preyed on unarmed citizens(some helpless women). He's scum and will burn for it.
Clyde
To answer a few posts here, which drifted into how to buy a sound surpresser & take it the same day,
, This tragic incident reminded me of Marcus Wynn's 2002 novel; No Other Option. That plot is a lot like a Dormer.
A highly trained covert ops/SF soldier goes "off the rez" & tears across the midwest US. The rapist/murder is tracked by his close friend & fellow spec ops commando. Wynn is a highly trained security expert & former US special operations/FAA Sky Marshal.
I read another good novel in the mid 2000s with a storyline about 2 1st grade NYPD detectives who are forced to track down a retired NY State Police Captain. The retired cop is 62 but looks 32, has training & weapons and goes on a rampage when his son is murdered.
To my understanding, .50BMG is not allowed in CA by citizens. Barret Intl refused to sell or market .50 rifles & weapons to any CA law enforcement or public safety.
As for Willie's post, Dormer has a valid point but he's hardly worth any praise or admiration. He's a ruthless killer who preyed on unarmed citizens(some helpless women). He's scum and will burn for it.
Clyde
Spats McGee
Administrator
Just because it's been done doesn't make it a protocol.
Spats McGee
Administrator
There's probably some truth to that. 
Edited to add: Also, just because I am unaware of a particular response protocol doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That is not exactly my area of expertise.
Edited to add: Also, just because I am unaware of a particular response protocol doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That is not exactly my area of expertise.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Numerous agencies in CA has these BEFORE Barrett stopped selling to or servicing from those agencies, however.
SPEMack618
New member
What I want to know in regards to the .50, if he even had one, was how he got?
Regardless of Barrett not selling to CA agencies or not, if .50 cal rifles or illegal in California, how could he have one in a non-LEO capacity?
Ignoring the cocerns of why Law Enforcement would need a .50, how would Dorner be able to have pocession of one while no longer in active service as a LEO?
Regardless of Barrett not selling to CA agencies or not, if .50 cal rifles or illegal in California, how could he have one in a non-LEO capacity?
Ignoring the cocerns of why Law Enforcement would need a .50, how would Dorner be able to have pocession of one while no longer in active service as a LEO?
Evan Thomas
Inactive
ClydeFrog said:
No one who has posted in this thread is admiring or praising him.A sort-of-related point: Mr. Dorner is sort of a reverse poster boy for the notion, embedded in some of the current gun control proposals, that LEOs and former LEOs should be exempt from restrictions on "assault weapons" and high-capacity magazines.Double Naught Spy said:
This ought to be a bit of an embarrassment to those making such proposals: it certainly undercuts their claim that only "trained professionals" should be trusted with such things. Folks in law enforcement won't be happy if the proponents of such legislation start arguing that they, too, should be prohibited from owning them.
I don't know of any protocol of the sorts either...
...and not saying Spats is making the accusation that that was the intention of LE at the scene.
Coincidentally, I was thinking about Waco when Aguila Blanca posted his Philly article. Which also makes mention of Waco.
As was said earlier, gas grenades/canisters can cause fire. At this point, there is really no clear evidence pointing towards anything else being used to start the fire and it would be unfair to accuse LE of purposely setting the fire.
Purposely trying to gas him out yes. Purposely trying to burn him out ?... ...gotta come with better evidence then what's been shown here.
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SPEMack618
New member
I'm not one to wear a tinfoil hat, and am glad that Dorner won't be able to spout his hate to a willing social media, but as a student, heck, as a cocerned American, the parallels between the resolution of this crisis and Waco are striking. And scary.
Similar number of LE casualties, heavily armed suspect, motivated suspect, media circus, etc.
Deserved or not, I fear that those traits will be discussed ad nauseam for the next several weeks/months.
Similar number of LE casualties, heavily armed suspect, motivated suspect, media circus, etc.
Deserved or not, I fear that those traits will be discussed ad nauseam for the next several weeks/months.
I listened to recordings of LE transmissions from officer to officer and dispatch just prior to the fire. They clearly say Lets go ahead with the burning. Just like we talked about. Then the burners are deployed. Then they continually report the progress of the fire to dispatch and officers with such terms as side 1 fully envolved etc referring to sides of the building.
There is no doubt they intentionally set the fire.
Now is this protocol? No. Nor is firing willy nilly on similar colored pick up trucks not once but twice for no good reason other than fear and wounding at least one woman, from behind.
I wont condemn LE for what they did. Dorner was not going to surrender, and frankly though outmanned and outgunned was effectively killing any officer that gave him the slightest chance. Face with someone that was obviously going to run the kill ratio up highly in his favor before that stand off ended, burning was the safer option and they took it. Its not like Dorner, after killing two cops was going to be allowed to come out of that stand off alive if he had crawled out waving a white flag.
Wasnt right but either the cops were going die in greater numbers, or do what they did. Not rocket science to figure out which they would choose.
There is no doubt they intentionally set the fire.
Now is this protocol? No. Nor is firing willy nilly on similar colored pick up trucks not once but twice for no good reason other than fear and wounding at least one woman, from behind.
I wont condemn LE for what they did. Dorner was not going to surrender, and frankly though outmanned and outgunned was effectively killing any officer that gave him the slightest chance. Face with someone that was obviously going to run the kill ratio up highly in his favor before that stand off ended, burning was the safer option and they took it. Its not like Dorner, after killing two cops was going to be allowed to come out of that stand off alive if he had crawled out waving a white flag.
Wasnt right but either the cops were going die in greater numbers, or do what they did. Not rocket science to figure out which they would choose.
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