Christopher Dorner is only ONE man.

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shortwave said:
Again, we can assume what the LEO meant by 'burners', we can assume how the burners were and where they were deployed and we can also assume the intentions for which they were employed...but unless we were there or unless we have some concrete proof of our assumptions ...that's all they are...assumptions. And should not be used to convict LE of any right or wrong doing.
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Agreed. We're expressing opinions in this thread, and if our opinions didn't differ, there wouldn't be much point in having a conversation. But we do have some evidence of what took place, in the form of audio and video recordings, and our opinions reflect our interpretations of that evidence.

There's not much more to say, except that the whole thing is horrible, and should never have happened. Mr. Dorner is anything but a hero, but it seems to me that he does fit the classical definition of a tragic figure, a good man whose flaws were his own undoing. This may explain, at least in part, why so many people find this case so compelling. (I realize that many will disagree with this assessment of him; we should remember that he served his country with honor* both in the military and as a police officer, and if his account of his firing turns out to be true, his rage will be more understandable, and his response to it genuinely tragic.)
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*From Wikipedia:
Dorner was a former Naval Reserve lieutenant (O-3) who was honorably discharged.

Dorner was commissioned in 2002, commanded a security unit at Naval Air Station Fallon, Nevada, and served with a Mobile Inshore Undersea Warfare Unit from June 23, 2004, to February 28, 2006. He was deployed to Bahrain with Coastal Riverine Group Two from November 3, 2006, to April 23, 2007.[10] Dorner was honorably discharged from the Navy Reserve on February 1, 2013.

In 2002, Dorner and a classmate found a bag containing nearly $8,000 that belonged to Enid Korean Church of Grace in Enid, Oklahoma. They turned it in to the police. When asked their motive, Dorner said "it's an integrity thing." "The military stresses integrity," Dorner said. "There was a couple of thousand dollars, and if people are willing to give that to a church, it must be pretty important to them." ​
 
Well, let's see, the cabin is nearly 100 years old, 1 story with a cellar approximately 10x10 feet and the sheriff's department were aware of the layout of the cabin because they had been informed of it. From the pictures, it looks to be no more than about 1500-1800 sq feet. From the description, about 6 rooms and the cellar.
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Thanks DNS for that info.

Six rooms and a cellar. If all rooms and the cellar had an outside entry, could explain why seven burners were used. Just a thought.

Vanya,

You are probably right on your assessment of Dorner. Hell, John Wayne Gacy was well respected and admired as well.

If we could only figure out the mystery of what makes a person snap! :(
 
Actually, my assessment of Gacy is a bit different: I'd say he was evil, and that's not a word I use lightly.

As to what makes some people snap, it's often not mysterious at all. The interesting question may be why more people don't. (Frogs and boiling water do come to mind here...)
 
The interesting question may be why more people don't. (Frogs and boiling water do come to mind here...)
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...and why can two different people go through very similar life situations and one person's brain short circuits while the others doesn't?

I don't believe anyone is born into this world already knowing to do bad or evil but rather learn to do so through life's experience's.

IMO, Dorner like Gacy, knew what he was doing. They both made prolonged, calculated, evil plans that extended over a period of time that was clearly not rational and had the results of both their plans was the same...death to innocent people.

Surely their motives were different and what caused them to short circuit was most likely different but both sought out and chose their victims, planned and executed their plans of attacks and both would have continued had they not met their fate.

Too, both had expressed good qualities and did good deeds in their earlier lives.

It's not so simple as to why or how these mental short circuits happen. If it was, those experts in places such as Virginia that have studied the mind/brain for years looking for the reason/reasons would have found it.
 
The fact remains that what stopped Dorner was the mechanical failure of his truck and his inability to tie a sufficient restraint to hold those people until he could make his getaway.

We will see if the authorities make good on the reward they offered for information leading to his capture. That was certainly provided by the couple he tied up who subsequently escaped and told of his whereabouts and what he was driving.
 
We will see if the authorities make good on the reward they offered for information leading to his capture. That was certainly provided by the couple he tied up who subsequently escaped and told of his whereabouts and what he was driving.
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The reward was contingent on conviction, I believe.
 
The difference between the Dorner incident and Waco is the initiation of the fighting. In Waco the gubment launched an unprovoked attack on the Waco compound based upon a warrant illegally obtained through false evidence and assumptions.

The Dorner incident is an LEO response to attack from a criminal bent on murder/revenge and known kidnapping etc.

Whether fire is a valid response is of academic interest. But it was a response to criminal activity that had to be stopped. The more delay taken to capture or kill Dorner put the LE community and civilians at risk.

For my money I think they did the right thing.
 
But it was a response to criminal activity that had to be stopped.
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And to those who think the police acted criminally by burning Dorner alive, you would be okay with them acting as judge and meting out whatever punishment they think is appropriate?
 
For my money I think they did the right thing.
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If they did the right thing, they need to say so, and own it. Or even if it was the wrong thing due to poor judgement during a crisis.

The sheriff is lying when he says the fire was unintentional. And there is no investigation (unless he's lying about that too.)
 
This scene in Big Bear is more like Ruby Ridge than Waco. The fact that they discussed a burnout before the situation evolved should not go well in an investigation. The next nut case may consider a different hostage policy. Remember, they're nuts, not stupid. I don't like solutions that permanently shut mouths, to the benefit of a party many continue to hold suspect in it's actions. This mess really damages law enforcement. I'm talking respect.
Next time a burnout is needed, call the Air Force! That's an old lesson, known as 'Nam style gardening.
 
zxcvbob said:
The sheriff is lying when he says the fire was unintentional. And there is no investigation (unless he's lying about that too.)
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If you carefully read what he says, he doesn't say the fire was unintentional. He says it wasn't set with the intention of burning Mr. Dorner out:

"Although the canisters included pyrotechnic tear gas, which generates heat,
'We did not intentionally burn down that cabin to get Mr. Dorner out,' McMahon said."

If their intention was to burn him to death, this is a really nifty bit of prevarication.

I'm sure there will be an investigation... of sorts. :cool:
 
The Hunted...

I was thinking of novels and/or films with a Dormer like character. The suspense drama; The Hunted with actors Tommy Lee Jones & Benicio Del Toro was a well made film. www.imdb.com
The end fight scene is worth watching.

Clyde
 
It sorta angered me to see people comparing Dorner to Rambo and "First Blood".

Maybe MLeake can shed some more light on it, but didn't he just ride around on a RHIB making sure to repeats of the USS Cole happened in Bahrain?

That doesn't equate to him being the next Jason Bourne.

The hero worship for this sicko is more angering than the whitewash the media is putting out concerning the lack of fire discipline of the LAPD.
 
The hero worship for this sicko is more angering than the whitewash the media is putting out concerning the lack of fire discipline of the LAPD.
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Agreed...One can argue the lack of discipline of the LAPD. The hero worship is something totally different. This man was a murderer. I am more concerned with those who have hero worship to this guy.
 
Rambo...

Hey...
Rambo John J was a good guy with a gun. :D
+ in Morrell's novel: First Blood, COL Sam Trautman kills John Rambo. Stallone said many times, he asked for Rambo to live to show SE combat veterans they are not hopeless & can get help.

Dormer's not Boba Fett or some ACE/ISA/SAD type killing machine but he was adept at SERE & avoided being caught quickly.
 
My take: if they knew for a certainty that no other persons were in the cabin then burning it down, even intentionally, at some point, was not an outrage.

I want there and haven't seen the timeline so I don't know what was a reasonable point in time to do so.

But from reading what is available so far I don't see anything that shows a certainty that he did not have a hostage. And if it isn't established the authorities knew it for certain than this is pretty outrageous.

The problem is, and this is born out by studies, that the cops, especially urban cops, see three classes of people. a) themselves as above the law, b) perpetrators; c) civilians/victims.

I don't care about Dornor. He is a murderer. But what is in the back of my head is that if this guy had killed four persons unrelated to the police, I think their response would have been less urgent. I think the possibility of collateral damage to a civilian hostage was thrown out the window by the cops because this guy had killed cops.
 
SPEMack618, I can't say for a certainty what he did while deployed to Bahrain, but having worked at 5th Fleet HQ a decade ago, I can make a reasonably educated guess as to the upper limit of Rambo-ness he could have experienced.

He might have had some role with harbor security, but a mobilized Reserve O-3 would be in a primarily administrative function with them. They might occasionally let the LT ride around in a boat, once in a while.

He might have had some role with EOD, but again since that was not his specialty, he would have been administrative. They might have taken him on the occasional range day, if they liked him.

From what I read, he was qualified Expert in pistol, but only Marksman in rifle. That does not indicate high speed, low drag. I qualified Expert in rifle the first time the Navy let me shoot one, which was a decade into my career. Not many specialties get much rifle time in the Navy; those that do would all qualify higher than Marksman - or they really should.

I have also read a couple comments from unnamed LA law enforcement types that indicated Dorner had some aviation training. If so, that would imply that he had washed out of either Pilot or NFO training at some point; if that is so, he would likely have been administratively separated due to over-manning, and thus entered into Reserve status as an unspecialized line officer.

Back when the budget could support it, a lot of aviation wash-outs would get sent out to aircraft carriers to be admin/clerk types in Air Operations. Students that couldn't handle some aspect of aviation training, but who worked hard and earned the respect of their instructors, would sometimes get better billets - we sent one that I recall off to Intel school, where he thrived; another went to SWOS. Most just ended up unspecialized and, career-wise, dead in the water.

Of course, I am just speculating based on limited information in news articles, and the implications of what little was said.
 
There was a picture of him floating around in a poopy suit while still an 0-1, and it looked liked he was perched on a Trojan. No insignia on his name tag, niether.

Further more, I haven't read anything to indicate that he had the Combat Action Ribbon.

I've always thought it was funny how the media glorifies any sort of military marksmanship badge as if it is a Distinguished Rifleman's badge.

the DC Snipers, Dorner, Lee Harvey Oswald, McVeigh were all lauded as superb marksman, regardless of thier awards.
 
American Terrorist....

I disagree with the point about McVeigh.
He was a "excellent" soldier. He earned a Bronze Star in Desert Storm, won a BN Soldier of the Month contest so many times, the unit's Sgt Major ended the program, was a E-5/SGT, and he took the US Army selection & assessment course for SF(special forces). To my knowledge, McVeigh was not trained at the US Army Sniper School in Fort Benning GA or had any covert ops/spec ops skills.
His background & military service are explained in American Terrorist.
I'm not writing this message to support Timothy McVeigh or praise him, I just want an honest, open account of who he really was, not the myths/rumors/lies.

Clyde
 
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