snacktrack
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That Tamara is one witty individual!
Birth control can help stop rapists
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Fred Hansen
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Nor does chemical treatment. It might mask their symptoms for a while, but that's about it. People who are able to scheme and prey upon other human beings in the worst ways imaginable are going to find ways to easily get one over on the do-gooders trying to help them with their problem.
That's why Tamara's solution seems best of all. It even looks like a plan that even (some) liberal types can agree upon.
I am not arguing that we shouldn't try to find out why people do what they do and try to fix it before harm is done. I am arguing that once you step over the line, I don't care anymore.
In my sick little world of absolute personal responsibility, your life is your own. You do with it what you like, when you like how you like. When what you do hurts somebody else, you have stepped out of the arms of liberty and into the crotch of licentiousness.
I believe that there are very few "normal" people out there. I believe that "normal" isn't the norm. We all have our problems. I have a high propensity to seek physical gratification from substances. I am highly addicted to nicotene. I enjoy alcohol so much that I must restrain myself more than most from partaking of it. I don't see other people who have a lot of the same cravings I do.
A molester or a rapist is a person with a different set of cravings. Just as I cannot help myself with my cravings for tobacco and beer, I believe that they cannot help themselves when it comes to desiring a child to do adult things with, or in the case of outright rape, degrading and punishing women (or children) as a means to feel powerful.
That being said, when my wife asked that I refrain from drinking, I refrained. If nicotene (I use Coppenhagen so as to not cause other people health problems), causes physical harm to others, I would stop that too.
I believe that some crimes should be viewed as illnesses. It just so happens that sex crimes tend to be incurable illnesses, and hence society is best served by life sentences or the death penalty. I do not see our prisons as rehabilitation clinics so much as they should be retribution for crimes. Prisons rarely rehabilitate, hence my views are the only people who should be there are those who commit crimes against life, liberty or property as punishment for those crimes.
If a person has a lust for children, I have little doubt that they know that it is wrong. It is their responsibility to seek treatment BEFORE they act on their lust. After they act on it, it is my duty as a juror to convict and hopefully to sentence them to a life of "rehabilitation" in one of our fine facilities.
In my sick little world of absolute personal responsibility, your life is your own. You do with it what you like, when you like how you like. When what you do hurts somebody else, you have stepped out of the arms of liberty and into the crotch of licentiousness.
I believe that there are very few "normal" people out there. I believe that "normal" isn't the norm. We all have our problems. I have a high propensity to seek physical gratification from substances. I am highly addicted to nicotene. I enjoy alcohol so much that I must restrain myself more than most from partaking of it. I don't see other people who have a lot of the same cravings I do.
A molester or a rapist is a person with a different set of cravings. Just as I cannot help myself with my cravings for tobacco and beer, I believe that they cannot help themselves when it comes to desiring a child to do adult things with, or in the case of outright rape, degrading and punishing women (or children) as a means to feel powerful.
That being said, when my wife asked that I refrain from drinking, I refrained. If nicotene (I use Coppenhagen so as to not cause other people health problems), causes physical harm to others, I would stop that too.
I believe that some crimes should be viewed as illnesses. It just so happens that sex crimes tend to be incurable illnesses, and hence society is best served by life sentences or the death penalty. I do not see our prisons as rehabilitation clinics so much as they should be retribution for crimes. Prisons rarely rehabilitate, hence my views are the only people who should be there are those who commit crimes against life, liberty or property as punishment for those crimes.
If a person has a lust for children, I have little doubt that they know that it is wrong. It is their responsibility to seek treatment BEFORE they act on their lust. After they act on it, it is my duty as a juror to convict and hopefully to sentence them to a life of "rehabilitation" in one of our fine facilities.
novus collectus
Moderator
Did I hear myself mentioned? Actually I agree with Tamara's statement that the victim should be allowed to kill their attacker. Even after the attack. But being a liberal I don't want laws passed to allow this. But if I was the rapist's jailor I would "arrange" an escape so that the victim or a family member could kill the piece of dirt. (note: I am not a jailor nor have I ever been a corrections officer)
Honestly, I think there is a difference between some types of child molesters and violent sex offenders. The child molesters are only aroused by children, and may not hurt any of them (beyond the sexual contact). Castration, of some type, often works with these people. If that stops the behavior and keeps people out of jail, better for everyone.
But sex drive has nothing to do with the drive to do violence. There is no organ that causes violence other than the brain, and that is not so easily removed.
I'm not making excuses for pedafiles, but I think we need to avoid one-size-fits-all solutions.
But sex drive has nothing to do with the drive to do violence. There is no organ that causes violence other than the brain, and that is not so easily removed.
I'm not making excuses for pedafiles, but I think we need to avoid one-size-fits-all solutions.
snacktrack
New member
Well the only problem with Tamara's solution is that the intended victims are often young girls, and they are unable to defend themselves with a firearm. Many innocent people would be killed by angry fathers at the wrong suspect.
I am glad there is such a lively response to this subject, I figured there would be, But I also figured I would hear the usual mantra of "kill em' all"
Human behavior is not a simple matter of "will" Saying these people want to be rapists is not an accurate assessment of their deviant behavior. There is something very wrong with the way they think, and the fact that many offenders say they dont know why they do it, its uncontrollable, I believe them. The brain doesnt make people do things. The brain is a useless bundle of nervous tissue without chemical messengers. And I believe the flood of the wrong messengers is the main cause of repeat offenders of rape.Does it make it right, of course not. If someone raped my daughter I would want to murder him too. But I would especially be upset if he was a repeat offender who was locked up for a couple years and let out in my neighborhood.
I am glad there is such a lively response to this subject, I figured there would be, But I also figured I would hear the usual mantra of "kill em' all"
Human behavior is not a simple matter of "will" Saying these people want to be rapists is not an accurate assessment of their deviant behavior. There is something very wrong with the way they think, and the fact that many offenders say they dont know why they do it, its uncontrollable, I believe them. The brain doesnt make people do things. The brain is a useless bundle of nervous tissue without chemical messengers. And I believe the flood of the wrong messengers is the main cause of repeat offenders of rape.Does it make it right, of course not. If someone raped my daughter I would want to murder him too. But I would especially be upset if he was a repeat offender who was locked up for a couple years and let out in my neighborhood.
Fred Hansen
New member
I trust you would be just as upset when it was one that went of his meds... right?
TheBluesMan
Moderator Emeritus
The only thing that I can think of that I do, though I don't really want to do it, is visit my in-laws.snacktrack said:
I think you're giving them an excuse for their behavior. Either a man is in control of himself or he is not. If he is, put him in jail. If he is not, put him in a hospital until he is in control - then put him in jail. The issue is responsibility.
Either a man is held responsible for *all* his actions or we scrap the justice system, shoot up all our prisoners with Fluphenazine, give 'em a pat on the back and set them free.
MeekAndMild
New member
Sorry, it just ain't so. Its a learned pleasurable maladaptive behavior like robbing banks or stealing cars. Most of what you read on the subject is psychobabble. This is the result of too many lawyers, too many crackpots in the APA (and the aPA as well) and the strange idea that we should punish political crimes the same way we punish violent crimes.
The problem will continue as long as violent rapists and child molesters are given the same punishment as people who fill in low spots in their yards or pick up owl feathers from the side of the road.
snacktrack
New member
Hey Blues man, I dont think its so black and white. I do agree a sick person can control his urges with incredible willpower. KJM says he overcame his drinking beer for his wife, and I believe that can be done for some people. Did he make the urge to drink go away? Of course not. There is a difference between making the urge go away, and simply holding it back by sheer willpower. Which one do you think is more effective?
extinguishing the desire..
or, fighting the desire every moment of your life for the next 30 years by sheer willpower?
Yes I do agree with you Blues Man people need to be held accountable for their actions. But I am simply saying, if there is a treatment that can help them not have these sexual urges in the first place, argue to me that a treatment that would control these sexual desires would not be beneficial?
I also think that most rapes are driven by sexual urges and violence is needed in order to forceably rape someone, therefore rape is a violent crime. Of course there are some rapists who take pleasure in killing their victims but I believe they are a minority of rapists and are the most dangerous and complex cases to deal with.
extinguishing the desire..
or, fighting the desire every moment of your life for the next 30 years by sheer willpower?
Yes I do agree with you Blues Man people need to be held accountable for their actions. But I am simply saying, if there is a treatment that can help them not have these sexual urges in the first place, argue to me that a treatment that would control these sexual desires would not be beneficial?
I also think that most rapes are driven by sexual urges and violence is needed in order to forceably rape someone, therefore rape is a violent crime. Of course there are some rapists who take pleasure in killing their victims but I believe they are a minority of rapists and are the most dangerous and complex cases to deal with.
Fred Hansen
New member
First it would be incumbent upon you to demonstrate that they in fact no longer have these "urges". I know of no reliable device or person that can know what is in another's head. Oh, I know, you want me to take the word of a rapist. Sorry. Not gonna happen.
snacktrack
New member
you wouldnt have to look inside someone's thoughts, if they stop raping then that is the demonstration. The statistics for these types of treatments speak for themselves, the rates of recidivism drop dramtically.
if everyone just agreed with me, then it would be all over with
WillBrayjr
Moderator
Birth control can help stop rapist is like saying gun control can help stop violence, Ain't going to happen! The only things that will stop rapist dead in their tracks is either killing them, putting them in prison, or cutting off their tallywackers
let's really stretch this ...
ok, so we have a drug that prevents rapes (please, bear with me here). what do we need to cure next?
well, those gunowners sure are pesky, maybe we need a drug that takes away the desire to own a gun. better yet, how 'bout a drug that takes away any desire to disagree with the ruling class.
ok, so we have a drug that prevents rapes (please, bear with me here). what do we need to cure next?
well, those gunowners sure are pesky, maybe we need a drug that takes away the desire to own a gun. better yet, how 'bout a drug that takes away any desire to disagree with the ruling class.
I disagree that either Rape or Child Molestation is a crime driven by sexual urges. There are many times that I've been incredibly attracted to a woman and didn't rape her. Horny doesn't equate to violent.
I've known these people before. When they're sitting in jail, they're some of the most pathetic people you'd ever meet. My opinion, guided by my experience with these kinds of people and my observations of general predatory behavior in Animals and Humans confirms for me that both of the referenced crimes, are crimes of subjugation.
I believe these people feel quite powerless, and the act of assaulting sombody gives them a thrill that extends to sexuality. Of course, it is difficult to assualt and subjugate a human being who has the power of resistance. It is the heart of the RKBA's debate. Some assault women because they have a difficult time relating to women. Some, get their kicks out of hurting children, because even adult women provide too much of a challenge to assault.
Having known a few of these people, and one in particular (James Lambert as referenced in a previous post), I can say that the best defense is being armed. Then next best defense is for parents to be vigilant and know where their kids are, who they are with and what kinds of people they are. If the above fail, then it falls to society to exercise the last defense against future crimes and that is to verify that the guy actually did do the crime (lots of ugly divorces and custody battles have false claims of molestation), and then to convict and sentence to as close to their whole life as is legally permittable.
These people are human predators just as a Dog is a predator, or a tiger (in spite of how well he is trained by those geeks in Las Vegas) is a predator. My dog however has learned to stop her predatory behavior through breeding and training. If my dog ever bites a child, she doesn't get a reprieve or second chance. The county won't have to destroy her because I will.
I am not willing to risk the lives or health of my wife or son to see if an experiement might work. I will not risk my neighbor's life or health to determine whether a specific treatment might work. I don't care if the drug or proceedure is 99% effective (and that would be a truly incredible and rare medical proceedure to have that high of an effectiveness). What about that 1% who it isn't effective on. What if it was your child who was the unlucky one to be the failure rate?
I am also not prepared to permit my legal system to scapegoat a drug rather than the purpetrator for actions that hurt somebody.
I've known these people before. When they're sitting in jail, they're some of the most pathetic people you'd ever meet. My opinion, guided by my experience with these kinds of people and my observations of general predatory behavior in Animals and Humans confirms for me that both of the referenced crimes, are crimes of subjugation.
I believe these people feel quite powerless, and the act of assaulting sombody gives them a thrill that extends to sexuality. Of course, it is difficult to assualt and subjugate a human being who has the power of resistance. It is the heart of the RKBA's debate. Some assault women because they have a difficult time relating to women. Some, get their kicks out of hurting children, because even adult women provide too much of a challenge to assault.
Having known a few of these people, and one in particular (James Lambert as referenced in a previous post), I can say that the best defense is being armed. Then next best defense is for parents to be vigilant and know where their kids are, who they are with and what kinds of people they are. If the above fail, then it falls to society to exercise the last defense against future crimes and that is to verify that the guy actually did do the crime (lots of ugly divorces and custody battles have false claims of molestation), and then to convict and sentence to as close to their whole life as is legally permittable.
These people are human predators just as a Dog is a predator, or a tiger (in spite of how well he is trained by those geeks in Las Vegas) is a predator. My dog however has learned to stop her predatory behavior through breeding and training. If my dog ever bites a child, she doesn't get a reprieve or second chance. The county won't have to destroy her because I will.
I am not willing to risk the lives or health of my wife or son to see if an experiement might work. I will not risk my neighbor's life or health to determine whether a specific treatment might work. I don't care if the drug or proceedure is 99% effective (and that would be a truly incredible and rare medical proceedure to have that high of an effectiveness). What about that 1% who it isn't effective on. What if it was your child who was the unlucky one to be the failure rate?
I am also not prepared to permit my legal system to scapegoat a drug rather than the purpetrator for actions that hurt somebody.
"you wouldnt have to look inside someone's thoughts, if they stop raping then that is the demonstration. The statistics for these types of treatments speak for themselves, the rates of recidivism drop dramtically."
And if he doesn't stop, then someone just got raped as part of an ongoing social engineering experiment. Some are willing to give a few chemically-treated rapists the benefit of the doubt and let them out of prison; I prefer to give myself the benefit of the doubt and keep them *all* locked up.
Tim
And if he doesn't stop, then someone just got raped as part of an ongoing social engineering experiment. Some are willing to give a few chemically-treated rapists the benefit of the doubt and let them out of prison; I prefer to give myself the benefit of the doubt and keep them *all* locked up.
Tim
Snacktrack has a valid argument. I question it's true effectiveness and, assuming it does work, how we would keep them on it? What is the cost of a lifetime of medication as opposed to a life in prison?
Obviously we cannot substitute prison time for medication, otherwise there would be a severe increase in sex crimes. If the criminals, or potential criminals, knew their only punishment was forced medication they would be coming out of the woodwork without fear of major consequences.
The sex crimes, to me, are just the tip of the iceburg. What other crimes are these same people capable of committing that are not treated with medicines?
Obviously we cannot substitute prison time for medication, otherwise there would be a severe increase in sex crimes. If the criminals, or potential criminals, knew their only punishment was forced medication they would be coming out of the woodwork without fear of major consequences.
The sex crimes, to me, are just the tip of the iceburg. What other crimes are these same people capable of committing that are not treated with medicines?
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