best man stopper (9mm hp or 45 ball)

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You got it Glenn

now that is precise and to the point. I have seen some weird things regarding persons or animals shot and moving along. Most of the time it is just bad placement.

One time I saw a deer running ontop of its spewn intestines and still moving.
Hit that same deer in the head with a 22-250 or 223 or 22 for that matter,
no movement. Dropped in its tracks. Unless you shoot the lower jaw off and it starves to death.

Humans are falling over cement cracks, I know of one getting hit with a bullet to the gut.

I know of a person who was fishing and got shot from left to right through and through right under the liver and spleen, got up walked into town and was in the hospital for 4 months. The wound was bad but he still lived. But if that shot would have been in the liver it would have been history.

Yep this was a 10 mm, no excuse me it was a 38, I mean a 9 mm or maybe it was a 40 cal. Could not have been a 45. Nope a 22...but it still would not have (probably) mattered since the placement was lucky for the victim.

Harley
 
Please explain how one would notice a 0.10" greater or lesser diameter - especially when the soft tissue tends to close back in on itself obstructing your view....
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You've got it Chui. This is something I've been trying to explain for so long. Human tissue isn't a solid substance. It contains a lot of water which makes it extremely mushy and elastic in nature. What happens when you shoot water. Is there a permanenet wound track left. No, the water just closes right back up where the bullet passed through. The human body is made up of 70% water so it reacts very similarly to things passing through it. It drives me nuts when people think that a .45ACP FMJ is actually going to leave a .45 caliber wound. It's not. That is why FMJ is not recommended for defense. Human tissue closes right back up around it. In the end it might be marginally larger than a 9mm ball wound but not even to make it better than a 9mm HP. No way.
 
So you think that when a .45 inch spear goes through someone the hole will magically heal itself back into a smalller wound?
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It depends on the profile of the spear and how long it was left in the individual being stabbed. Without a doubt there will be some shrinkage of the wound. There always is unless we are talking high-velocity rifles which creates a massive explosive wound.
 
Knives cut bullets don't

Speer as in bullet is going to push its way through, a spear will cut and so does an arrow, looking bigger then the actual size for many reasons, the spear is travling slow the animal bunches up and it cuts more stuff. Where
the bulletto is different in that it does not make as big a wound sometimes.

Surprising but true.

Harley
 
Oh will we ever get tired of the 9mm vs. .45 debate? Millions have been killed with both with about the same success rates. They do the same dagleblasted thing for Pete's Sake they just do it a different way. Is anyone besides me sick of hearing about this when us revolver guys know that neither one can hold a candle to the good old .357 Magnum.
 
Is anyone besides me sick of hearing about this when us revolver guys know that neither one can hold a candle to the good old .357 Magnum.
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I certainly am sick and tired of people making silly claims about the .45ACP like it being proven in war and it being an excellent defense cartridge even in FMJ. Simply no pistol is an excellent defense weapon and all of the semi-auto service calibers work equally effective. I tend to feel more comfortably with my 357Mag revolvers as well. I like the confidence of a 158gr. hollow point going over nearly 1250fps.
 
Whatever... A 9mm hole is still smaller to begin with and will shrink even smaller than a .45 hole will. I can't believe we're even talking about this...
 
For those who like to cite "real world" experience, there's a recent GunWeek article that may be found interesting. Sorry for the Google cache, the original article has expired.

Here's the relevant section for those who don't care to RTFA:
"Many disparage the 9mm’s stopping power, and knowing that only military “ball” ammunition was available, I asked if this had been a problem. Spook said that it hadn’t. He knows what some of the gun magazine chest-beaters claim in print, and admits that he hasn’t shot any blocks of ballistic gelatin. He has shot eight men with the nine, though, and all went down with center thorax hits. One or two shots sufficed, if well placed. Spook knows that others have complained about the nine, and wonders where they hit their opponents. He has talked with a couple of tank crewmen who shot Iraqis off their huge armored mounts, and they seemed satisfied, too."
 
I prefer the .45 ACP in terms of stopping power, but the 9mm para gets a very bad wrap in many circles. It's a proven cartridge and it does have takedown velocity. I can't take sides on a debate like this, both the .45 and the 9mm are venerable cartridges. They have both been in use for a very long time, and for good reason.

When someone's "little" 9mm puts 2 in an attacker's head and one in their heart, I think the efficacy of this bullet is well-proven. That said, there are a few small-frame, relatively concealable handguns that take a .45 ACP, and if you run that cartridge through the above scenario it will probably prove to be just as lethal. I mean, are there different levels of lethality dependent on caliber, with that kind of precision shooting? For all intents and purposes, I don't think so. (Edit - I should add that very small calibers such as a .22 might be less devastating at the same range to the same exact areas of the body as described above, but I'm mainly talking about the 9mm para and bigger. A .380 would also do fine.)

However, I also think that a not-so-well-placed shot is when the sheer stopping power of a .45 can really be a saving grace. It makes up for a possible lack of precision and buys you a second to fix your friggin' aim - yet it is no more difficult to make a well-placed shot with a good .45 (I personally carry a USP Compact in .45 ACP). This increased margin of error, IMHO, is one of the main advantages of a .45 - especially for real-life situations, where a variety of factors can contribute to events unfolding in a manner that is less than "textbook".

Incidentally, this is my first post on these forums, but they are awesome. Glad to be here... :)
 
Tankers and the 45 in WW11

My Uncle was with Patton from North Africa to the very last fight in Berlin,
completly screwed him up for civilian life.

He used to talk about the stuff he saw trying to explain how come he was a drunk and why he just could not cope I guess. He was a favorite of mine even though he was not as some feel he should have been.

When I went into the Marine Corps at 17 it was the last time I saw him alive.
He left and dissapeared to places that these type of men go.

He used to say the 45 was the best hand gun. Talked about shooting a German dead center when he was on his tank and taking him out. He liked the 30 carbine also. Must be the reason I have several of both.
Of course he really preferred the tank.

The only time he talked about it was when he was drunk, I don't remember when he was sober.
He knew I was going into the service and I guess it was his way of trying to tell me not to.
But in those days we had the draft and we accepted it so I joined the service I wanted to.

I saw his medals and his release papers in his foot locker that my mom kept for him, That was years later after he died.
Very sad, but he sure liked the 45.
Sorry I guess it has been on my mind so I let it pour out....

The main problem as I have stated in prior post is the supply and the weight of the 45 when it comes to amount of ammo to be delivered to the front lines.

Same with the 308 vs the 223, can you imagine trying to shoot a 3 round burst with the 308 or 06 from the position they carry now when going from door to door.

I carried the BAR, 20 pounds of 30-06 but it was not what I would want today.

I think we are on the right path as far as the training and the tactics of our service men and women. I feel for this reason the 9n is a better round for carry...
More bullets in the gun and easier to shoot. The 45 is not one that everybody can shoot so the percentage's go for the 9mm.

Harley
 
"So you think that when a .45 inch spear goes through someone the hole will magically heal itself back into a smalller wound?"

Not analagous at all.

A low velocity, low energy cutting weapon such as a spear or arrow doesn't create the same kind of ancillary tissue damage that a high velocity, high energy weapon does.

Knife cuts, thrusts, etc., are generally extremely clean and well defined.
 
Hi Mike the trick here is to read the spelling.

Hi Mike the spelling is the key. Speer vs spear, one is sharp the other is not.
One cuts what is in the path the other does not.

I should not be so inclined but some times I am. As in not as clear as I should be. Sorry.
How are you? I see you are truly well qualified and have posted many times.

I am new to the boards and this type of stuff. My old hands are not used to typing.
I have really been there and done that. I still work out 3 times a week and stuff like that, shoot and try to be ready. For what ???

Are you following me? Thats OK, I stand by what I type if I am wrong you will let me know. :D

I was in Norfolk for a couple of years off and on back in the early 60s.
We use to attack Virginia beach all the time in the early hours of
the morning.

Harley
 
"Hi Mike the spelling is the key. Speer vs spear, one is sharp the other is not.
One cuts what is in the path the other does not."

No, the key is to make sure that I was quoting you.

I wasn't.

Other than that, you're perfectly clear, and we actually agree on this one, I think.
 
"What do meplats do?"

They are the flat part of the nose of a bullet. When a bullet is either a non-expanding one or an expanding one that fails to expand, that is the part of the bullet that crushes and permanently destroys tissue. Expanding ammo that actually expands has the effect of increasing the diameter of the meplat once it hits, increasing the diameter of the permanent wound channel.
 
"However, I also think that a not-so-well-placed shot is when the sheer stopping power of a .45 can really be a saving grace. It makes up for a possible lack of precision and buys you a second to fix your friggin' aim..."
Click to expand...

You can err by......... 0.05 inches with a .45 ACP versus a 9 mm Parabellum... :confused: That's the difference in the radii of the respective bullets. It's NOTHING. Only GOOD hits count.
 
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