best man stopper (9mm hp or 45 ball)

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But considering where the meplat is, wouldn't that tissue be destroyed anyway? Wouldn't it be more effective it the outer edges of the bullet were angular and sharp, so tissue couldn't as easily slip away relatively unharmed?
 
"But considering where the meplat is, wouldn't that tissue be destroyed anyway?"

Actually, no. It is the meplat that is doing the tissue destruction. At least at handgun velocities. Normal round nosed FMJ ammo has a small meplat making for a narrow wound channel, narrower than the diameter of the bullet. Much of the flesh just goes around the bullet and is not crushed by it.

"Wouldn't it be more effective it the outer edges of the bullet were angular and sharp, so tissue couldn't as easily slip away relatively unharmed?"

As long as we are talking about non-expanding bullets, Yes. That is the rationale behind the practice of using Wadcutters or Semi-Wadcutters as carry ammo in .38 spl snubs. That is also the rationale behind using heavy hard cast SWC bullets for hunting revolvers. However, if an expanding bullet actually expands, the resulting permenant wound channel is larger in diameter than that of a sharp edged large diameter meplat non-expanding bullet. This style of bullet is a problematic thing for autoloaders (like we are talking about here), as such ammo tends to be less reliable about feeding -- that's why you don't see more of it available in non-revolver cartridges.
 
However, I also think that a not-so-well-placed shot is when the sheer stopping power of a .45 can really be a saving grace. It makes up for a possible lack of precision and buys you a second to fix your friggin' aim
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This kind of thinking is both dangerous and careless. Again, is there proof that the 45ACP is significantly better at stopping people than the 9mm? If you have some, I would like to see it. I have yet to see any scientific or statistical proof that it is. I'm not saying it isn't better just that it is not significant enough to make a practical difference, let alone sacrifice half the ammunition capacity of my 9mm or .40 pistols. Your statement can also be reworded to favor the 9mm like, in the case of not-so-well placed shot the better controlability of the 9mm can really be a saving grace. It makes up for a brief lack of precision by easily being able to make lightning quick follow-up shots. Do yourself a favor, if you ever have to shoot someone with your .45 Don't assume they are down for the count, keep shooting until they are out. It's the same for every caliber, the 9mm just makes it easier.
 
According to my calculations, which may indeed be wrong, in a 4 inch stretch of wound track the .45 does approx. 66 percent more damage. Combine this with the fact that despite magazine capacity you will probably only put 1-2 rounds into one specific persons vitals in combat. The main argument for extra magazine capacity I have heard is to compensate for misses and to better deal with multiple opponents.

Just something to mull. I personally am not saying you have to be more or less accurate with a .45 bullet than with a 9mm bullet.

While in the long run the 9mm does have faster follow up shots than a .45, if you fire 3 rounds, the 9mms advantage in that sector is suddenly cut short a bit. What I mean is, if you were to take a 9mm and .45 and fire 16 rounds with each, the 9mm would come out far ahead, but if you were to only fire 3 or 4, how much of an advantage time wise would the 9mm really have?

Question: Theoretically which would leave a wider, more damaging wound in tissue if both projectiles were the same girth and did not yaw: a spitzer shaped pointier bullet, or a rounder bullet resembling a ball?
 
According to my calculations, which may indeed be wrong, in a 4 inch stretch of wound track the .45 does approx. 66 percent more damage.
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What is your calculation based on. I would like to see it. You could be right but then again, I ask the question, how significant is it?

but if you were to only fire 3 or 4, how much of an advantage time wise would the 9mm really have?
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That really depends on the person doing the shooting. It could be a slight or large advantage. Keep in mind somebody will likely be shooting at you. The more bullets you throw at him, the better.
 
I got to ask with all you ‘bigger is better’ supporters how come .50GI isn't caching up? if 0.45in is that good .50 must be even better ;)
 
Hmm.... I believe the calculation was based on an equation involving the surface areas of the two calibers displacing volume in a specific distance of travel, 4 inches. I will find it when I'm not so tired, I promise.

How significant is approx. 66 percent more damage per shot? Thats a matter of opinion I guess. It's worth it to me. :)

That really depends on the person doing the shooting. It could be a slight or large advantage. Keep in mind somebody will likely be shooting at you. The more bullets you throw at him, the better.
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I agree, but I don't know what to say about the last sentence there.

Im still interested in hearing an answer to my last question.

Another question: What is the rough diameter of the average male human heart?

IM Lugger maybe if Glock made a pistol in .50 GI it would become more popular! :p Hell I would buy one!
 
If chui is right about 0.05 radi

How can you/we get 60% more stopping power in the 45 ACP in 4"s ????lol

I am really bored with this particular arguement, think I will go over and find a 30-06 vs the 308 thread I can read. LOL... Or 6mm vs the 243...Now if we are talking 458 Win mag. vs the 470 Nitro there is something I can sink my keyboard into... :D

Harley
 
Yeah but the one they make it in is multiple thousands! LOL given those two choices I think I will take the Glock. And Glock might popularise it and make the ammo cheaper.

But it doesn't realistically stand a chance, its like the .45 GAP.

Harley... I never said it had 60 percent more stopping power, but it destroys 66 percent more tissue in a 4" wound track. I chose that distance because it seems about what the heart would be in thickness, but I don't know.
 
Recent Shooting----

Recently, a Customer opened fire on a BG holding up an auto parts store (Tacoma, WA -Subject of another thread re: discussion of Citizen Involvement in stopping a crime in progress) and it appears that HIS .45 was not as lethal as some might think. 7 shots, 7 hits, and the BG is still alive. Somewhere in the process, the BG let loose a round of his own and hit a clerk. From News photo's it appears that the rounds fired from the .45 were of a FMJ (Ball) design, not HP's. One expended round showed the exposed lead core in the base. Would have thought that 7 rounds from such an "awesome round" would have been ltehal.
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Apparently .45 can be as inadequate at times as other calibers.
 
Sorry Cobray my bad

I will have to be more careful in my spouts. LOL

I actually like them both for different reason's.

I could stagger them like in the shotgun.. one 45 than one 9mm, wait that won't work...Back to the arguement.

I like the 45 for,,, that is what I first shot expert in 1960 and got my medal. Taught me to really like the 9mm when the 18 shot pistols came out but I do like my 10 round Astra mdl 80 in 45cal. though...

See I just cannot make up my mind.

I have been able to kill what I am shooting at with either. That is why I don't point the Pistol/Revolver/shotgun/rifle/gun at something I don't wish to kill...

Targets I like my Glock 17L 9mm...Its 6" fellas :D

Harley
 
Volume of a wound channel would be measured by the following math.


GIVEN:
9mm expanded = 0.6 inches
.45 ACP expanded = 0.7 inches

REQ'D

Calculate the volume of a wound channel 4 inches in length

ASSUMPTIONS

Assume that the calculation begins once the projectiles have reached maximum diameter.

Pi = 22/7 or 3.14159

Pi/4 * diameter squared * 4 inches.

I don't have a calculator on me, but anyone who does can do the simple math.

66% seems high, but it's irrelevant. Only GOOD HITS COUNT. Period.
 
I think a good 9mm HP can easily expand to at least .65
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Realistically most premium 9mm expand to about .60, while some tend to expand to .65. I wouldn't say that they easily expand to .65. Some excellent rounds like the 147Ranger and Golden Saber have been know to penetrate extremely well and expand to about .65. The majority of the 9mm loads are in the .55-.60 range however.
 
Yes, again!

There is a saying: if you want to learn something new, read an old book. But don't tell anyone!

Here is an old book from an author I haven't seen mentioned so far on this forum, though he is mentioned somewhere here. This goes back a few years but it is the only book of a non-medical variety I have seen that actually has photos of gunshot wounds, all fatal. All the way from .32 to .45 (I believe all were handgun cartridges. Although the wounds shown were all entrance wounds, they did not look that different from one another.

To be fair, the book was probably published in the 1960's and many of the handguns are no longer available. The book was published at the height of the fast draw craze of the late 1950's and early 1960's but it is still the only book of its kind that goes into the more gruesome aspects of this business. I have not read any of the more recent books by Ayoob and others but Keith only speaks of actual bullet performance in relation to hunting (more or less) and Skelton never mentions it, near as I recall. But it is enough to make you think twice about having a gun in the first place. Even so, I suspect that talking about wounds in a gun fight is placing the emphasis in the wrong place, as far as winning the gun fight goes. But that's just my viewpoint.

I believe the author's name was Chic Gaylord. It was a relatively thin book. Don't remember the title.

Referring to some of the discussion about bullet wounds sealing up, I believe that body type, not to mention wound location, enters into the problem and it may be that it could easily happen with, uh, heavier people. But there are so many variables that you could as easily be talking about what happens in a car crash.
 
Old saying get it caught in a wrinkle and

You won't know the difference.

Could be true of small caliber wounds if they close and won't be able to be found until in the morgue. Some fat closes up the wound channel and the bullet hits the heart and it stops pumping, no blood.

Many funny things happen, Ripley's believe it or not.

Harley
 
Also curious of this.

If a 9mm hp +P is as effective as a 45 fmj. I rather have 17 rounds of 9mm hp +P than 8 -10 rounds of 45 fmj. Also lighter recoil (depends on the 9mm). If a 22 was as effective as a 45, I would definitely use a 22 since it barely has recoil and are cheaper to buy.

This is not about hp vs hp or fmj vs fmj... More of efficiency right in both cost, carry, etc. Technology vs the old facts.

Miyamoto Musashi once said "The purpose of todays training is to defeat yesterday's understanding..."

So what would you use during a shoot if you had no other choice than to use a pistol with 17rds 9mm hp +P or a 8-10 rnds 45 fmj? And you had 2 or more opponents? Hmmmm.
 
This thread is almost 5 years old, and it appears that quite a few of the participants are no longer active here.

I don't see any reason to resurrect this thread with a response.
 
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