best man stopper (9mm hp or 45 ball)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Muzzle energy is a big factor; let me ask you what’s the difference between .38spl and .357mag? the answer is Muzzle energy! you you might say .357 has higher velocity, but it’s a one (of two) factors that make for the kinetic muzzle energy. Do you know how muzzle energy works? What it means?

Like I said bullet deign is very important too, but it isn’t everything…

.45 expands more in a hollow point only because of it starts out as a bigger bullet… let’s see a good .45 HP usually opens up to .70 (or more) and 9mm HP to about .65 (or more). So 9mm expends 83% (from .355” to .65“) and .45acp only 55%. So technically 9mm expends more.
 
Cje1980 .357mag is more powerful than 9mm so it will me more effective if fired from a similar gun. But a .357mag fired from a 2in snubie is not going to have any advantages to 9mm fired from a SMG. ;)

If you compare ME of .45 and 9mm there won’t be much difference to make a difference. Unless you compare the best to the worst loads…
 
By expend do you mean expend kinetic energy? They will both expend 100 percent if they stop in the human body, but that again means nothing because the kinetic energy of any defensive handgun load is not enough to rupture tissue at all.
 
They will both expend 100 percent if they stop in the human body, but that again means nothing because the kinetic energy of any defensive handgun load is not enough to rupture tissue at all.
Click to expand...

The argument about energy levels being low deals with hydrostatic shock. Handgun bullets move too slowly to generate hydrostatic shock. But kinetic energy is a different matter.
 
Cje1980 .357mag is more powerful than 9mm so it will me more effective if fired from a similar gun.
Click to expand...

That is what I was saying in my post. I think you misunderstood me. The point is, the 9mm will never be even remotely close to matching 357 Mag power. An extremely hot 9mm barely matches watered down "low-recoil" 357 Mag loads. Like I said, KE lets ballisticians and bullet designers know what is achievable from a cartridge but kinetic energy doesn't "kill". Killing or stopping power is a variety of factors. I do know what makes up kinetic energy and it mostly favors velocity. The formula is M*V*V*.000002218. I tend to favor simple bullet momentum as it is more accurate in determining bullet power. A 147gr 9mm has much less energy than a 115gr but has much more punch and momentum, especially at longer ranges. You see what I mean?
 
A 147gr 9mm has much less energy than a 115gr but has much more punch and momentum. You see what I mean?
Click to expand...

So what's the momentum on a 127 grain at 1300 feet per second? It's considered even more effective than the 147.
 
Handgun bullets move too slowly to generate hydrostatic shock. But kinetic energy is a different matter.
Click to expand...

Good point. You can usually see the affect that high energy bullets have on gelatin. It has been shown that this extra energy disruption of gelatin blocks doesn't have much affect on human tissue. Gelatin blocks pretty much explode when rifle rounds are fired through them due to the high levels of shock transferred.
 
By expend do you mean expend kinetic energy? They will both expend 100 percent if they stop in the human body, but that again means nothing because the kinetic energy of any defensive handgun load is not enough to rupture tissue at all.
Click to expand...
No, I mean hollow point bullet expansion…from .355 to .65 there’s 83% increase vs. from .45 to .70 - 55% increase.

The Foot per Pound kinetic energy is the energy the weight makes falling from the distance of one foot. So ME of 400ft-lb is the energy 400lbs makes falling from one foot. Now don’t you think there’s a difference between being hit with a 200 lbs (i.e. .380, 38spl) or 400lbs (i.e. 9mm .45) or 700lbs (.357 mag) weights?
 
No, not if its concentrated on the head of a pin. Its just going to make a hole, now just think of it in terms of a bullet, if anything that energy over a wider surface area is going to mean more. Is it really going to knock people over like a 400 pound weight will? No.

Yes, you're right, the 9mm is more efficient at expansion.

Just like a Ford Focus is more efficient than a Ferrari Testarossa.
 
parabellum, don't you know there's only two real guns made?
The model 1911 and Smith and Wesson revolvers! :p
 
Gelatin blocks pretty much explode when rifle rounds are fired through them due to the high levels of shock transferred
Click to expand...
Is this why a rifle, even though a much smaller relevant caliber, is so lethal? Does the increased velocity translate into that much more damage?
 
At a certain threshold of velocity and with proper bullet construction (velocities common handgun calibers dont reach), the kinetic energy, which translates into temporary wound cavity, becomes powerful enough to rupture organs and tissue. A bullet with a high enough velocity in FMJ with a thin jacket will often fragment, becoming basically a softpoint. A solid bullet that does not fragment, at very high velocities, can also cause this damage.

Again, handguns cannot reliably do this. Handguns can also not knock over people through sheer force, for that matter most rifles cannot either.
 
Yes you’re right about guns not being able to throw people off their feet. I know it’s not the same when the weight is concentrated on a such a diameter as a bullet, but the energy still transfers to the target, it doesn't just dissapear (unless the bullet exits the object in which case part of the energy is lost) especially if a bullet hits hard surface like a bone…
 
Hmmm

"First of all, this is a fairly naiive statement to make. Hopefully, anyone reading the original question would first realize that there is not enough information to answer. "9mm JHP" can mean a lot of things. If we are talking 115 gr. JHP vs. 230 gr. .45, no, the 9mm is not superior. Penetration, the most important aspect of terminal ballistics is less with lighter ammo, and any expansion you get is at the cost of penetration. Last I checked, there were no 230 gr 9mm rounds in handguns. Advantage: .45 ACP. Those are the physics I understand. I don't know what physics you are using."

230 grain .45 = 147 grain 9 mm. It's called SECTIONAL DENSITY. Mass / unit volume.

NOT just penetration but the volume of the Permanent wound track. I could design a .22LR that could penetrate as deeply as a .45 but it would not be as effective due to the tiny cross sectional diameter.

So, NO, you don't fully understand the physics of this vexing "problem"...

Design the jacket to perform to whatever metrics one finds adequate and using identical bullet shapes and construction methods there will not be any measurable differences.

Question. Can doctors determine the caliber of the bullet during abridement of gunshot wounds? Speaking to doctors from Detroit Receiving and Atlanta's Grady Memorial the answer is "no, we cannot."

Oh well.

That being said I love the 1911 platform. I also love the P226 and P7 platforms. I shoot them equally well. The advantage of the 1911 is the single action trigger; I'm quicker with the first and subsequent second shot. The P7 is a close second; more concealable, but the grip is more critical and less forgiving. I'd take a 9mm 1911 in a heartbeat. Though I've "mastered" the draw and fire with the P7 it requires a bit more focus to execute as well as with my TRP. That said, follow-up shots are slightly quicker with the P226 due to less felt recoil.

So for me "it really don't matter much"; give me something that I can fight effectively with and... I'll fight effectively with it. Your mileage may vary.
 
90+ percent of doctors will also tell you that 7.62x39 FMJ is the deadliest ammunition around and should be illegal because its armor piercing and "tumbles" causing horrible wounds. They will tell you cop killer handgun hollowpoints fragment, throwing shrapnel off at high velocities that liquifies everything in the human body.

They will tell you a bunch of other straight up bull about things they don't know jack about.

If you think I'm not suprised they can't tell the difference between a .380 hole and a .50 AE hole its because I'm not. The victims often arrive half an hour to multiple weeks after they have been shot, clothing might have been pulled into the hole, in addition the very nature of tissue wounds themselves confuse the untrained eye.

Most doctors can't tell the difference between a double edged and single edged knife wound.

Doctors who have done their homework and who have a lot of experience can tell the difference, those doctors are few and far between however, as this goes more into the field of forensics.
 
So what's the momentum on a 127 grain at 1300 feet per second? It's considered even more effective than the 147.
Click to expand...

According to who? Last I saw the 147gr. Ranger penetrated more and expanded no less than the +p+ 127gr. Ranger in every test and did much better against barriers. You can also say it is really effective at wearing out pistols.
 
So when I went to the NTI and we had talks from military trauma surgeons and highly placed tactical officers in police departments - the consensus was that there was little difference between high quality 9mm, 40 and 45 ACP rounds.

I've heard this quite a few times away from the pseudo science of the internet and irrelevant physics.

The main variance is a good hit that either makes you bleed out or stops your CNS. Anything else is poking a hole in meat.

Bleeding out gives the enemy a few seconds to shoot you. A devasting CNS destroy is a hard shot to make in a dynamic situation.

When the dude has a hit elsewhere and they fall - it's psychological - not foot-lbs or other baloney.
 
"Doctors who have done their homework and who have a lot of experience can tell the difference, those doctors are few and far between however, as this goes more into the field of forensics."
Click to expand...

Please explain how one would notice a 0.10" greater or lesser diameter - especially when the soft tissue tends to close back in on itself obstructing your view.... :rolleyes: And the doctor's I'm speaking about are Army doctor's who've seen their share of combat wounds due to center-fire rifles, pistols, shrapnel and blast.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top