best man stopper (9mm hp or 45 ball)

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9mm HP, because it often opens up to diameters larger then .45 caliber while still carrying most of its energy. Ball ammo, while better when bigger, is not as effective as hollow points. However, 9mm ball vs 45 ball, I give the nod to .45, as well as 9mm HP vs 45 HP, though I prefer not to compromise between velocity and mass. I chose the 10mm
 
.45ACP HP always beats 9MM HP

Forget the 9mm, regardless of bullet type and velocity. Go with a .45ACP hollowpoint defense load - it will outperform any 9mm loading.

There are several outstanding .45 defense rounds - CorBon HP, Federal HydraShok HP, Remington Golden Saber, Federal EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jacket), Winchester Silvertip HP and others.

Any of these will outperform their 9mm counterpart by a wide margin.

Yes, you get less rounds on tap with most .45 autos than with most 9mm autos - but how many does a person really need?? When a gun is drawn in self defense, more than 98.5% of the time, a shot is never fired. The rest of the time, 2 to 3 shots are fired. I'd rather be firing BIG bullets at my attacker than medium bullets.

The current crop of high-tech .45ACP hollowpoints expand in the neiborhood of .68 to .73 diameter and dump 400-550+ ft./lbs. of energy into their target, based on test results-
CorBon 165g +P HP: 573 ft./lbs.(YEE-OWCH!!) :eek:
CorBon 185g +P HP: 543 ft./lbs.
CorBon 165g +P HP: 550 ft./lbs. (Powerball load)
Federal HydraShok 165g HP: 412 ft./lbs.
Federal EFMJ 165g: 435 ft./lbs.
Winchester Silvertip 185g HP: 411 ft./lbs.
Those are some HARD hitting loads!! IMHO, the performance of the .45 +P HPs are compelling.

There are hi-capacity (10+1 or greater) .45 autos to be had, to wit -
Glock 21: 13+1
Glock 30: 10+1
H&K USP full size: 12+1
Para Ord P12: 12+1
Para Ord P13: 13+1
Para Ord P14: 14+1

As the Marines say: "Never attend a gunfight with a handgun whose caliber does not start with the number four." I think they are on to something there...
 
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Well since we’re talking about hot loads, Buffalo Bore makes 9mm 115gr loads @ 1400fps =500ft-lb or 147gr for about 450ft-lb. Not too shabby :cool:

Also 9mm HP do expand up to .68 (maybe even more) as well and you can get 18 rounds in some guns.
 
I hope I wasn't misunderstood. The 9mm is perfectly decent, and better than a sharp stick. Under perfect conditions, it does perform in a similar fashion to larger calibers. But given the choice, a bigger hole and better penetration in general is always better. Gelatin tests prove one thing, adn that's penetration in gelatin. It doesn't include barriers like buildings, car doors heavy clothing or a mess of muscle, flab, and bones on the way to vitals. I didn't mention it, but of course, there is no stopping power or one shot knock down power or anything else in either one. Even a long gun has trouble with that.

This thread wasn't begun as a discussion on shot placement, or being comfortable with what you have, but I am curious what some of you would say if the .45 can be shot with just as much accuracy, and the shooter just as comfortable as with a smaller caliber. Would there be any reason then to go with a smaller round? I think not. Go with the biggest you can handle. That's my policy. :) If it's the 9mm for you, great. If it's the .45, better. Neither is a guarantee.

I don't want to get into a debate on this round vs. this round, simply because with any stat, there is always a way to make things look the way you want them. I am no ballistics expert. I have not read every paper published on the subject. But the things I have read give an edge to the larger caliber, for reasons already cited.

It might be interesting to note, however, that the FBI article mentioned earlier cited penetration as the largest single factor in determining the effectiveness of a given round. Their words, not mine. It goes on to say that HPs in general, and in particular those of less mass (i.e. smaller) have difficulty performing as advertised when going through barriers (read: cover) and heavy clothing.

FWIW, though it may not be the best possible outcome, a .45 ball that penetrates completely through its target does leave 2 .45 caliber holes for the price of one. That's not the holy grail of ballistics info or anything, but something to think about. As for shot placement being the most important thing, well, yeah, but still, a bigger hole has a better chance of hitting more stuff, and it's not like your target is going to stand still in the light in the open and let you line up your sights, so really, regardless of caliber, you are lucky to get a couple COM hits roughly anywhere. And if you are just as accurate with a .45...

Let's face it, your chance of getting into a gun fight is less than your chance of winning the lottery, so let's just do a group buy on LOTTO and be happy. :) This horse is not moving. It looks really bad. Gamey. It's starting to smell...Ooooh, I'm dizzy.
 
That was one reasion the 45 ACP came out, turn of the century US millitary was fighting some indians in the jungle of south america or some place I dont remember where. They took some drug which allowed them to take 38 rounds to the chest and really diddnt slow them down. Many had 2 or more rounds in them and they still cut the American solders to peices with there mechettes.
With the 45 ACP this diddnt happen often enough. The 45 has higher energy level but not as good balistic coefficient (higher drag). 9mm has better penetration but lets face it Bigger is better.
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Ozzieman

If you do some research on it you will discover, the same time US troops were having trouble on Morro Warriors that had gone off to Jihad in the Philippines, they not only had problems with their 38s, but also with 45-70s, 30-40s, 45 Colts and 12 Gauge shotguns. Turns out that stopping a crazed Jihadist on narcotic is much harder than one would expect, as an aside the Marines in Fallujah found similar with Jihadist who could take a long burst from 7.62 and turn around and run off.

So the natural solution, lets introduce a round that approximates the performance of a round that has shown to also have problems. Combine that with the fact that the Morro insurrection was in its waning days by the time the 1911 was fielded, I am not sure it ever proved to be more effective.
 
I am quite sure that if it was possible to make a 40mm grenade launcher in pistol format, someone would insist that it would have more stopping power in a 1911 frame. :)
 
Great Thread

i think this is a good question. i know many are missing the point, since early 20th century, everyone viewed the .45acp round as superior to everything else (pistol ammunition semi-auto). popular belief pretty much stated that anything .45acp, in any format FMJ, or JHP, could, and would put every other round to shame. but this question got me thinking could a modern technology bullet 9mm +P JHP (115gr. or up) compare too, or beat the old time legend? it seems as if there is no real answer or no real evidence to say one is better then the other. i have wondered about this question too, thinking if i need to buy a .45acp gun for home defense, or get a new compact .45 for CCW. but its kind of refreshing to see that some +P 9mm JHP, can come very close to the .45acp "manstopping" FMJ 230gr round (wasnt the .45 given that nickname during WW2, which the army used ball ammo), while still maintaining control, and higher magazine compacity. i dont know which one is better thats why i have been keeping up on this thread, but just the fact that I dont know which one is better (same with many others here aswell), indicates that the +P 9mm JHP, is indeed a potent manstopping round too.
 
LOL I think +P 9mm JHP is going to do more than "come close" the performance of vanilla 230 grain .45 FMJ...

What is it, just under 70 caliber compared to .45 caliber, slightly more if it hits bone?
 
Muzzle energy is a combination of mass and velocity; two most important factors. Bullet design of course matters too, but without velocity HP won’t work and without mass it won’t penetrate far. ;) So how can anyone say ME means nothing? Sure a rifle round is more powerful, so what?

I’m not sure if 9mm can defeat .45 in bullet expansion (it is darn close though), but 9mm is equal to .45 in terms of muzzle energy and superior in capacity and follow up shot rate. Which in my books makes 9mm the overall winner.

I’m not a big .40 fan but I do think it’s a very good round....especially for these who can’t make up their mind :p
 
To whom ever thinks the army is going back to the 45

Is not taking into consideration the ability to supply the men in the field with suitable amount of ammunition. As in numbers of bullets you are able to get to them. The amount of ammo that is fired to kill ratio is ridiculous.

The 223, and the 9n, are the infantries beans and potatos. Kind of like SOS those who don't think the Army runs with there stomach's are mistaken.

It is not the arguement that you are trying to portray. So much goes into the reason Armies and Police force's have a certain caliber. Some of the reasons are politics and others are necessity.

Your opinions are valued but they are simply that. Not much more. Paper targets don't care guys.

Like I said the 9mm is the most popular hand gun cartridge in the world.

Harley :D
 
That's what I've always thought about too. I know that if I had to move 10,000 rounds by hand, under fire, I'd rather move 9mm.
 
"more stopping power in a 1911 frame"

I am quite sure that if it was possible to make a 40mm grenade launcher in pistol format, someone would insist that it would have more stopping power in a 1911 frame.
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LOL! :D
I bet also a pelletgun in 1911 style beats each and every 9x19mm bullet.... :D
 
Actually muzzle energy really doesn't mean jack with handguns. It changes loading to loading, and each loading is going to have a different bullet design, which is going to mean a hell of a lot more than muzzle energy.

The .45 has less muzzle energy than the 9mm yet expands more in a hollowpoint.
 
I agree Cobray, kinetic energy doesn't mean much in the way of calculating terminal effectiveness. I think it's a useful tool for ballisticians to use to work up loads and to see what a bullet is capable of. In all reality a 9mm NATO round is producing about 400ft/lbs of energy while the 230gr. military load produces about 370ft/lbs. Does it mean anything, not at all. Just like when people try to say that +p 9mm is "close to" 357 Mag performance. Yeah right.
 
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