best man stopper (9mm hp or 45 ball)

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I'm amazed this discussion keeps coming up. I guess people like to hear it over and over again. If I dump 8 rnds of 45 into somebody, I think they're going down. If I dump 12 rnds of 9MM into somebody, I think they're going down. I recently completed a class where the instructor told of his friend doing bodyguard work in South America. A gunman tried to assassinate the person he was protecting. He dropped the gunman. He thought he only fired 3 rounds, but there was 15 casings on the ground. It seems that in the heat of the moment, no matter how well you train, this can happen. I'm sure if someone comes in my house, they're probably getting the gun emptied into them until they drop. It's just instinct.
 
Not me----

I don't think I would volunteer to be the test dummy for either of these rounds :eek:

A COM hit from either is going to do some real damage. It really isn't a fair to compare the 9mm JHP vs. 45 FMJ. I would imagine that most 45 carry pieces are loaded with something a little more "expanding". I will say that the 9mm with the more recent offerings of ammo (147gr JHP's, +p's, etc) will perform very well. Even better if all shots are COM. Better yet, why not make all shots CNS :cool: Then the difference is merely the size of the splash pattern on the wall behind the target :eek:
 
Who in his right mind would choose any FMJ for self defense?

Sticking with the question I'd have to think their performance characteristics would be so close as to not matter.

As many have suggested compare self-defense rounds to self-defense rounds and plinking ammo to plinking ammo. Georgia Arms is just one of the manufacturers of very affordable 45HP and affordable 45+p HPs.
 
Another 9m vs. .45 thread... :rolleyes:

Interesting way to put the question to the group. It almost spells out what is at the heart of the issue, and that is, if the 9mm expands like you hope it will (which will happen roughly half the time), then it hopes to be on equal footing with a .45 ball round, at best.

So, to me, it begs the question. If you want .45 performance, why try to get it from a 9mm?
 
9mm JHP VS .45 FMJ

Comparing 9mm JHP to .45 FMJ makes a lot of sense. The .45 FMJ has been the gold standard. Isn't the army thinking of going back to that? So if 9mm JHP is roughly equivilent to the standard army round than it is near the top end of self defense rounds and of course it achieves that status while being lighter than the .45 and allowing more rounds to be carried in extra mags and in the weapon itself. The fact that .45 ammo has been improved in recent years is not really an important part of the argument since the .45 achieved its status largely on the basis of FMJ ammo.

Bill
 
Physics versus Opinion

"Interesting way to put the question to the group. It almost spells out what is at the heart of the issue, and that is, if the 9mm expands like you hope it will (which will happen roughly half the time), then it hopes to be on equal footing with a .45 ball round, at best.

So, to me, it begs the question. If you want .45 performance, why try to get it from a 9mm?"

U've gotta be kidding, right? You don't understand physics if you believe that - particularly Fluids, Hydraulics and Aerodynamics. The terminal ballistics of a JHP 9mm is far and away superior to .45 ACP ball.

And of course we'd all like .45 ACP JHP terminal ballistics out of 9mm JHP. Why? More ammo, less blast, flash and recoil and thus more rapid second, third and/or fourth shots with better placement.

Is it possible? I dunno; probably not quite. Again, if the bullet construction is properly designed for both then the sectional density of a 147 gr 9mm and a 230 grain .45 projectile are virtually identical. If the nose designs are similar they'll penetrate very similarly. If they are designed to expand properly within the velocity windows of the cartridge then they'll perform similarly. Simple Physics. You have a 0.05" margin of error for placement [(.45 - .35)/2] which is neglible in combat shooting.

I'd place more emphasis on shooting ability, platform, concealability, ammo capacity (in that order) and above all else, bullet placement (which we are all in agreement on).
 
I'd place more emphasis on shooting ability, platform, concealability, ammo capacity (in that order) and above all else, bullet placement
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Agree;

I never fully understood this calibre thing among people; calibre is one of the last factors you should consider. You should pick a gun that that you like and can shoot well, that you know you will practise with. There’s no need to go with a gun just because it’s a .45 or .44 or what ever. What’s the point of the large calibre gun if you can’t shoot it well? It won't do you any good! If you know there’s a gun that you can shoot better with (faster/ more accurately etc) in a smaller calibre it would be foolish not to go for it just because of a slightly smaller bore diameter. :rolleyes: There’s no need of course to go to .22short because it’s easy to shoot, but anything incl. and above .380 is a good choice.
 
Interesting way to put the question to the group. It almost spells out what is at the heart of the issue, and that is, if the 9mm expands like you hope it will (which will happen roughly half the time), then it hopes to be on equal footing with a .45 ball round, at best.
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First of all, modern HPs expand a lot more than half of the time. Read my earlier post. A study documented by the FBI that I read in this forum stated that in 1989, bullets expanded 60-70% time in actual human targets. This was using "old-school" bullets not the excellent HPs that are available today, which expand very reliably even through heavy clothing. Some expand better passing through heavy clothing.

The other issue at hand is that bullet profile is more important than caliber itself. Even if in the rare instance that a 9mm HP expands to only .45 its bullet profile is much more destructive than round .45 Ball which just passes right through the human body. What do you think would do more damage a round .45 caliber projectile that just glides right through human tissue or an extremely flat expanded .45 projectile with sharp edges and pieces of copper jacket sticking out tearing through human tissue. Surgeons can't really tell the difference between wounds from FMJ bullets of any of the service semi-auto loads. FMJ just passes right through the human body and the extremely elastic and stretchy tissue of the human body literally closes right up around the wound. .45ACP FMJ is slightly better than 9mm FMJ and not anywhere near as effective as 9mm HP. Does any of this matter more than shot placement. If you put a 9mm HP where it needs to be it will do its job. If you put a .45 HP where it needs to be it will do its job. Lets not make it so complicated.
 
Fair is not an issue. The guy (maybe gal, apologies extended if needed) asked a specific question for whatever reasons. The resulting posts tend to wander (OK that can be interesting) but many seem to assume that the JHP is an option. In some countries and some states in the USA, it is not a legal option. That's one reason that there is still an interest in the Cartridge, Ball, .45 Caliber.

Bart Noir
 
I carry 9X23 - I'd guess 9mm +p sometimes and .45 ball sometimes

I carry 9X23 - I'd guess 9mm +p sometimes and .45 ball sometimes and that it depends entirely too much on facts not in evidence. I'll go with Ayoob and others who say 9mm in the summer time - and with Cooper who says the 9mm in a cruiser weight pistol but if you've got the room for a full size pistol go .45 every time (9X23 requires a full size pistol for the magazine length).

Moreover the 10mm trumps both but.......
 
Bart Noir

Thanks Bart, I did attract a bit of sarcasm regarding fairness. Never understood why people respond if they don't like the thread. (by the way I am a male)

The reason for this comparison is really rather simple. I have an old Colt 1911 that is reliable with ball, but not so reliable with HPs. Don't want to have it worked on. I want it in original condition. So on the rare occasions that I carry it, I do so loaded with ball.
Also have a 92FS that so far has shot everything I put in the mag. It is usually loaded with Golden Saber.
I was simply looking for opinions to determine which one was protecting me best.
 
U've gotta be kidding, right? You don't understand physics if you believe that - particularly Fluids, Hydraulics and Aerodynamics. The terminal ballistics of a JHP 9mm is far and away superior to .45 ACP ball.
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First of all, this is a fairly naiive statement to make. Hopefully, anyone reading the original question would first realize that there is not enough information to answer. "9mm JHP" can mean a lot of things. If we are talking 115 gr. JHP vs. 230 gr. .45, no, the 9mm is not superior. Penetration, the most important aspect of terminal ballistics is less with lighter ammo, and any expansion you get is at the cost of penetration. Last I checked, there were no 230 gr 9mm rounds in handguns. Advantage: .45 ACP. Those are the physics I understand. I don't know what physics you are using.

First of all, modern HPs expand a lot more than half of the time. Read my earlier post. A study documented by the FBI that I read in this forum stated that in 1989, bullets expanded 60-70% time in actual human targets.
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I wouldn't be the first to say that 60% is a "lot more" than half the time. In my post, I believe I said, "roughly half the time." Once again, if expansion does occur, it is at the expense of penetration. And that is if it does occur. Which is not a guarantee. And expansion, btw, does not mean, "guaranteed expansion to .50 cal in every case." As they say, a .45 cannot shrink.

The most important part of this was the way the original question was worded. I didn't get into it in a big way, because it seemed self-evident, but the .45 is clearly shortchanged in this scenario, because the 9mm is being put against .45 ball ammo as opposed to, say, 230 gr JHP. Whether it was by design or not, it is like giving your Mom a ten minute head start in a footrace. The 230 gr .45 JHP, upon expanding, would outperform the expanded 9mm when penetration and expansion are both considered.

Any bonus you get by having a 9mm expand makes the diameter of the bullet roughly the same as the .45 ball. But it won't penetrate as deeply. As far as the implied uber-damage that the 9mm JHP causes just by being a 9mm HP, I guess I would have to look at your extensive database that proves this all out.
 
Last I checked, there were no 230 gr 9mm rounds in handguns. Advantage: .45 ACP.
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Read my first post. Weight in itself means nothing. Look at gelatin tests. A 230gr. 45 doesn't penetrate any better than a 147gr JHP. A 185gr JHP 45 doesn't penetrate any better than a 115gr JHP. Its all about sectional density and momentum in relation with initial surface or contact area that determines penetration. For example, the 45ACP has significantly more momentum than any 9mm load but it also has more mass and surface area to push through, so it penetrates very similarly to the 9mm or .40S&W. So will a 230gr 45 going 850fps out-penetrate a smaller diameter 158gr .357Mag going 1300fps? By the way a 147gr. 900 has more sectional density than a 230gr. 45ACP. A 158gr .357Mag has even more. Yes the original question is what is better between 45ACP FMJ or 9mm JHP. The answer is the 9mm JHP is significantly better than 45ACP FMJ but of course not as good as 45ACP JHP.
 
Yep, good arguement for both

Each has its own advantage. I like my 17 L Glock (6"), 9mm 147 HP seems the way to go.

I also prefer the 40 to the 45. Just me. I know many sides to the story but shot placement is the key, next is the amount of ammo in your gun.

I like the 45 but it has some disadvantages. Dont they all?

9 mm is used more, as far as popular around the world. Most people in the military carry a 9mm. The 9mm short (380) is a good one for a second gun.

Harley
 
Did I step into the way back machine and land in 1989. I think that is the last time I read anything about a 9mm versus .45 Auto. :rolleyes:

Of course it's threads like this that bring out the true gun geeks/nerds, throwing around "quaint" terms like terminal ballistics and stopping power. From a handgun, you're kidding me!

One would think that with the advent of modern hollowpoint technology that these discussions would be mute. However there is something to be said about blind rhetoric and dogma.

Handgun stopping power is an oxymoron. I use to believe the myths but then I grew up. My contention, please don't shoot me with any of them. Thank you.

Best,
Dave
affirmed gun geek/gun nerd
 
An unwinnable arguement. All I can say is I would rather have either than none. :) I would also rather be hit by none than either :eek:
 
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