Autoloader vs revolver..again

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sansouci said:
"I find it very hard to believe that, in your extensive, taxpayer-funded experience, you've never had a semi-auto of any manufacture suffer any type of failure."

Are you implying that I'm a liar?

I'm with Webleymkv on this one. Your credibility left the building with Elvis.

Not saying you're intentionally lying, but the nicest thing I can say about someone who claims to have been carrying a handgun for over 30 years, has fired thousands and thousands of rounds at taxpayer expense, and never even heard of a Sig malfunctioning, is that they either have a very selective memory or are VERY careful to make sure they don't talk to anyone about Sigs or read any threads discussing Sigs.

sansouci said:
And I have carried a handgun for over 30 years.

sansouci said:
I have fired many, many thousands of handgun rounds.

sansouci said:
It wasn't wasted. I fact, you paid for my training. Not only did it not cost me a thin dime, I was paid (lots of it was O/T) to shoot the heck outta guns.

sansouci said:
BTW, I have never, ever had a Sig malfunction nor have I ever heard of a Sig malfunctioning.
 
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It's Defense ...not the gunfight at the OK Corral...

Each to his own, I'd say, but this comment makes sense to me. Many will differ on carry methods, risk analysis, etc., and the tools we find sufficient to the perceived need, but a revolver with a bbl. not over 3" and in a realistic caliber (.38 Special as a minimum), fill my expectations.

Above: a 25 year old S&W M36 in .38 Special. Below: a much more recent M60, .357 Magnum.

Rod

 
Just read the rest of pg. 4 of this thread...whew...but I'll add one comment that with 50 yrs of handgunning behind me, 3 of it in combat, I've seen a lot of failures with semi-autos, and far fewer with revolvers, in a ratio I'd estimate at 10:1. I own both types, like them for their intrinsic merits, but harbor no illusions as to their respective faults. You have to keep them clean and well maintained to trust either with your safety.

Webley's statement more than covers my experience on the subject:
I could buy that a first-quality semi-auto, if well maintained, fed first-quality ammunition, and fired with the proper technique by the shooter is almost as reliable as a comparable quality revolver under the same conditions for maintenance, ammo, and shooting technique. However, I cannot get behind the blanket statement that semi-autos are more reliable because a semi-auto requires a much narrower set of circumstances to work reliably and, quite frankly, I've seen far too many semi-autos that were supposedly the best-of-the-best malfunction under relatively mundane circumstances.
Best regards, Rod [and kudos to Uncle Ed for pointing out the truth!!!
 
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I've been around a while, owned a number of different guns, have shot a lot of different guns I've never owned, and seen a lot of guns shot by others.

I have not yet seen ANY action type that is infallible. When things line up just right, EVERYTHING JAMS.

Revolver, semi automatic, full automatic, bolt action lever action, pump action, even break open single shots, I've seen them all JAM under certain conditions.

Some guns are more likely to jam than others, BUT nothing is 100%, 100% of the time. If you have a gun that has never jammed, it only means that it hasn't happened YET. High round counts are impressive, but only mean YOUR PERSONAL gun runs well. Another gun, same make & model can have much different performance.

Even the guns with great reputations for "always working" can, and do jam sometimes. I've had AKs jam, Glocks jam, and even 1911A1s shooting hardball have jammed.

And, by "jam" I mean something that interrupts the normal firing cycle, usually during feeding, but by no means always.

Parts get worn, parts break. NOT a design flaw (unless it actually is, but those are different, when it is actually flawed, the same parts will fail, repeatedly)

Dirt, mud, dust, all the things in a "combat environment" can do it. Foreign material jamming a gun is also NOT a design flaw.

OPERATOR ERROR (user error) causes a lot of them, again, not a flaw in the gun's design. The most common operator error is loading the gun with ammo that jams. Sometimes it is actually the way the user works the gun that causes it, as well.

Drag both behind your truck for five miles down a dirt road, and find one jammed and one didn't. Fine. Claim the revolver failed because its a revolver, and that's not fine. It didn't fail because it's a revolver, it failed because you drug it down a dirt road behind your truck!

Your special pet gun has gone 10 billion rounds without cleaning, fine. Who does that anyway? How do you have the time, and money for that, and not have the time to clean it??

Torture tests only show you how the individual gun tested survived, or didn't. Odds are others of the same make & model will PROBABLY do something similar, but there is no guarantee that the gun in your hands will do the same thing under the same conditions.

Overall performance in tough conditions is a valid basis for choosing a gun to equip a military force where thousands or tens of thousands of pistols will be used, in all conceivable conditions. I'm looking to arm 1 guy, with 1 pistol, for use in what I anticipate will be much less harsh conditions. So, my standards are different.

Discuss it all you like, but stay civil, or we're done here...
 
Wow, steely eyed and combative. Since you folks don't pay for my ammo even on overtime I load my own, even cast my own, make my own bullet lube on my dime. Both my revolver and auto loaders tend to go south because they get dirty. I wouldn't get 10,000 rds thru my 1911s because they get slower and sloooower locking up until thumb to slide pressure is applied. Then a field stripping and cleaning is done, sometimes a detail stripping and cleaning is needed. I have better luck with my centerfire revovers, a model 60 gives me the most trouble, but the worst are my rimfire revolvers. All in all I wish you suckers would buy me nice clean jacketed stuff. Not really, that's for sissies.
 
Hi salvadore,

Are you using reloads in your 1911? Some powder burns dirty and gritty. I love Unique, but even the cleaner version is still dirty. Titegroup is about the cleanest burning powder I've found.

The 5904 that was used for testing prior to agency purchase was tested with factory ammo. 10K rounds and not a single malfunction. And it was never cleaned. It had to prove itself totally reliable before agency purchase. It did. And I never experienced a single problem with the one that was issued to me.
 
If you read pistol-forum, there are plenty of malfunction stories from almost every kind of gun.

That a particular gun makes it through 2000 rounds doesn't mean it is failure proof.

Last month, my Glock 17 and my SW 1911 each had one jam in matches.
 
Regarding semiauto reliability, this Website might help: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9-2-000-Round-Challenge

I always clean every gun right after I shoot it. But then again, I've fired hundreds of rounds during training sessions w/o ever experiencing a single problem except with a revolver.

**again being that I'm on the app, I missed the part of the study where they state fte as not being a malfunction. I re-read it and saw 0 malfunction according to their test and their definitions. I left original post intact to give sanssouci credit deserved **
Hey sanssouci, not to stoke the fire but if what 45 auto says is true (can't find the post, on the app won't let you search ) regarding your statement on sig. Then the link you have provided shows that you have indeed heard of sig malfunction. Thus further validating what others have said in that the claim seems a little exaggerated and thay your memory may be selective regarding the matter.
I don't have as much shooting experience as you and others. But I do have a "frail" k frame .357. That's seen a lifetime of 158 grain magnum loads. Don't know the ammo count, but since I've inherited her from dad I've shot close to 5k rounds. Dad had it longer and he shot more often. So at least 10k rounds through it. No issues apart from a broken firing pin that happened because of my pure stupidity (dry firing it with no snap caps ). That also supports the statements made by others that when a revolver fails, it's typically done such was the case in mine. But I own 2 autoloaders and have dealt with jams, ftf, fte etc. And a broken pin on one of them too.

Point of all of this is that there are way too many variables in this equation of reliability to apply such a broad blanket statement. Shooter, ammo, cleaning, storage, climate etc. Are just some of the ones that I can think of at the top of my head. Until a Laboratory full of qualified scientists does a study with strict protocol and measures, in a controlled environment everything is anecdotal and biased in terms of choice. This includes mine of course. (I haven't seen such study myself but if one exists please direct me to it)
I've seen both classes fit that reliability standard and I've seen both fail. With that said I choose a wheel gun but I don't knock those who feel just as reliable with an autoloader.


I'm with Webleymkv on this one. Your credibility left the building with Elvis.

Not saying you're intentionally lying, but the nicest thing I can say about someone who claims to have been carrying a handgun for over 30 years, has fired thousands and thousands of rounds at taxpayer expense, and never even heard of a Sig malfunctioning, is that they either have a very selective memory or are VERY careful to make sure they don't talk to anyone about Sigs or read any threads discussing Sigs.


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 
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Hi sandmansans,

Yes, I did notice malfunctions. However, I also noticed various ammo brands. I've used only issued ammo, which was always good quality, W-W, I believe. Due ammo was W-W and then Federal HST. Moreover, I can't recall if any of the failures were due to reloaded rounds. Semiautos can be pretty darn persnickety when loaded with reloads. An indoor range not too far from me sells reloads. While I've never used them, I have heard other shooters complain about them. Further, there was nothing that I can recall in that link about possible faulty magazines causing. In the end, the link was far from scientific. It was anecdotal if anything. But it was interesting info. More info would have made it more valid.

Every mechanical device can fail. I've heard of cracks in P-226 slides after 30+ thousand rounds. I have no clue of the number of rounds handgun manufacturers expect a copy of their guns to fire before they begin to show indicators of imminent failure.

My opinion, and that's all this is: our opinions, is that a good quality semiauto is more reliable than a revolver. Also, revolver failures are almost always catastrophic whereas almost all semiauto malfunctions can be cleared within seconds.

I don't put too much credence in "torture testing" because we don't torture our handguns. I always clean my guns after every shooting. I take good care of them. I'd bet most hand gunners do the same. We don't dip them in gunk to see if they'll fire.

I do like revolvers. In fact, were I limited to only one gun, it'd be a Model 27-2 assuming I were able to find one. I think that the .357 Mag is our most versatile cartridge. Within range, a 180 grain .357 Mag will kill moose. Every season, bull elk and bull moose are killed with arrows. A .357 Mag is more deadly than an arrow.

My P-229 is the most reliable handgun I own. I'd trust it over my Smith & Ruger revolvers. But others might see it differently. I've put at least a couple thousands of rounds through my P-229 -assuredly more- without the slightest problem.

Finally, another benefit of a semiauto, for me anyway, is that they're easier to conceal.
 
I like to laugh at myself. So here is an almost pointless story.

Ten years ago or more a good friend gave me a bag of OLD ammunition. There were a couple of dozen rounds in a ziplock sandwich bag that were all discolored. It looked like an archeological find. He said it was "such and such" ammo (I didn't pay attention) and that maybe it was worth money or something and I could just have it because he was selling or giving away everything to go live on his sailboat in the Caribbean (which he did and still does).

Well, a few years ago I got belatedly interested in 32 caliber handguns. When I was scrounging through my ammo chest I saw the old bag of dirty-looking ammo and started to wonder about it. When I held it up to the light and squinted at it, I realized it was 32 S&W... not 32 S&W long, but 32 S&W! "Maybe my FiL will reload this for me," I thought, "and then I will have something EVEN EASIER for my daughter to shoot when she is bored with 22's!"

WARNING: This is where the stupidity begins! So I took the little bag of greasy old ammo with me to the shooting range on my next trip there. I put it into one of my 32 revolvers and started shooting it. "That is funny," I thought, "I could swear that I can almost see the bullets floating through the air. Nawww, no way. I must be hallucinating." So I continued to shoot it and, amazingly, EVERY SINGLE ROUND ACTUALLY FIRED! But the last round was special. When I shot it, it struck the paper target backed by plywood and BOUNCED OFF. It actually flew through the air and landed in the dirt just in front of me. Perhaps some of the other rounds had done the same. I am a very unobservant person, so I don't know. But I sure saw that one.

Yes, I can be an idiot. I momentarily thought it was hysterically funny. The RSO also saw it. He DID NOT think it was funny! We had a short and earnest discussion about it. I assured him that it was the very last round and no, I would NEVER EVER EVER AGAIN fire ammo like that at his range.

Is there a moral to the story, other than "Tallball can be an idiot"?

Yes. If it had been 32acp, the semiautomatic pistol would have malfunctioned on every round (or almost every round).


Epilogue: My FiL is 6'8" and has hands the size of dinner plates. I gave him the 32 S&W brass in a bag with some other random brass. He will eventually reload the brass I give him when he is bored and there is nothing good on TV and my MiL threatens to kill him if he doesn't get out of the living room for a while. The next time I saw him I asked him about the 32 S&W brass. He launched into a profanity-laced tirade about how much 32 S&W long brass we had between us and why would he reload brass that is so small he needs a microscope to see it and it is about the same fps as the long ammo anyway, and some people are real (insert favorite 25 profanities here) idiots. As I had at the range, I thought his tirade was hysterically funny, but I nodded my head and looked serious so that I wouldn't hurt his feelings.
 
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The .32 S&W is listed as an 85gr bullet at a blazing 705fps.

This is for factory ammo, in good condition (barrel length unknown)

Old corroded ammo, very likely some degradation of the powder, so it could be even slower.

I have heard other people mention how .32 Colt and S&W shorts, and even longs sometimes bounce off "hard" objects that other rounds zip right through.

It is, in short, simply about the lowest powered centerfire round you will find.

Also, revolver failures are almost always catastrophic whereas almost all semiauto malfunctions can be cleared within seconds.

This has been repeated often, and I won't disagree, it is the observed result. HOWEVER, this is only one way to describe the observed results.

Playing devils advocate, here is another way to describe these same results

"Revolvers don't choke, until they quit, autos choke early, and often."

Of course, what matters most is your personal feelings about "almost always" and "almost all", and how important that is to your situation.

We are all influenced to a huge extent by our own personal experiences (and rightly so, most of the time;)).

If you've had more issues with revolvers than semis, then you have had more issues with revolvers than semis. I think the majority of us have had more issues with semis than revolvers. What I don't see is justification for claiming semis are MORE reliable than revolvers. AS reliable, I might accept, MORE reliable, I just don't see how.

And here, I am talking about overall, including all of us and our different personal experiences. In your life, with the guns you've used, your opinion is right, in mine, mine is. Overall, all the shooters out there? I don't know for certain. I know what I think the answer would be, but I don't know it for certain. Maybe take a poll??
 
44 AMP,

Reference your: "Revolvers don't choke, until they quit, autos choke early, and often." What is the source of this info? Or is it your own assessment?

I'd go with our having divergent experiences.

When it comes to defensive handguns, I'm 100% objective. That's because I like being above ground.

Now I'm sure that I've see a semiauto fail on a firing line somewhere during the past 34 years. If I have, I don't remember it. If you've seen a lot of them fail, you might be hanging out in wrong places.

Except for maybe Korth, I'd go all in on a Sig P-229 being more reliable than any revolver. You can use any ammo you choose. I'll use factory W-W. I'll go with yours failing first. I'm going with mine not failing. Ever. If I thought it as much as might fail, I wouldn't rely on it. It's that above ground thing.

BTW, I've never fired reloads in my Sig. I do know of a Sig P-220 that had difficulty with poor quality reloads. But then again, I doubt a revolver would have fired them.

BTW, I know a guy who owns an S&W 1911. His gun has never failed with any ammo including reloads. Anything that gun is fed will fire. It has never experienced a single hiccup. He uses only Wilson Combat mags.

While at one time it might have been true that revolvers are more reliable than semiautos, technology has caught up with the handgun game. Computer aided manufacturing has removed human error. Hence, I'll go good-quality semiauto every time. Double action revolvers have somewhere around 20% more parts than a semiauto. More parts = ???

Heck, I can completely disassemble a Sig in less that 15 seconds. I can give it a thorough cleaning in about 15 minutes, but I can be neurotic when it comes to cleaning guns.
 
"Computer aided manufacturing has removed human error."


My feeble attempts at comedy have been completely outclassed.
 
Now I'm sure that I've see a semiauto fail on a firing line somewhere during the past 34 years. If I have, I don't remember it. If you've seen a lot of them fail, you might be hanging out in wrong places.

That's flat out ridiculous. I've seen them fail in matches and high end training experiences with professionals. You might be the luck of the draw at the end of the binomial expansion (p(failure) + q (not failure) ** n but most semi users aren't.
 
I have stayed out of the revolver verses semiautomatic discussion because it is a very subjective topic. I have some of each that I trust completely. With that said, I have seen many semiauto failures over the years and only one revolver failure. I will admit that I have seen many more rounds fired through semis so that skews the data a bit. I can come to the conclusion that if you have never seen a semiautomatic fail, you have had limited exposure.
 
"My feeble attempts at comedy have been completely outclassed."


Tailball,

I think we've all been outclassed.

Can't think of another thing to say.
 
Heck, I can completely disassemble a Sig in less that 15 seconds.

Only with a grenade.

You can FIELD STRIP in that amount of time, I can do it with mine. NO ONE Can completely disassemble any SIG or any firearm in less than 15 seconds unless you blow it into little bitty pieces.

Sorry, you just lost your credibility with me.
 
Originally posted by Sans Souci
Yes, I did notice malfunctions. However, I also noticed various ammo brands. I've used only issued ammo, which was always good quality, W-W, I believe. Due ammo was W-W and then Federal HST. Moreover, I can't recall if any of the failures were due to reloaded rounds. Semiautos can be pretty darn persnickety when loaded with reloads. An indoor range not too far from me sells reloads. While I've never used them, I have heard other shooters complain about them.

Ok, so by your own admission, semi-autos can be persnickety with certain types of ammunition. While it would certainly be preferable to shoot top-quality ammo all the time, those of us who aren't issued ammunition don't always have that luxury.

We've seen some pretty severe ammo droughts over the last decade and oftentimes those of us who have to procure our own ammo are forced to settle for whatever is available. In my area during the '09 ammo shortage, the only box of .380 Auto ammunition to be found within 100 miles was an off-brand (and it was $60 a box at that). If your semi-auto doesn't run with the only type of ammunition that is available, you're in a rather nasty pickle.

A revolver, by its design, is much more tolerant of ammunition. The bullet shape is of no consequence because there is no feed cycle that it must go through and the minimum power threshold is much more generous (get the bullet out of the barrel vs. cycle the slide). The only ammunition which I've ever encountered that would not run in a revolver was either so grossly out-of-spec that it would not fit in the chamber or a squib which lodged its bullet in the barrel. While cheap, off-brand ammo certainly wouldn't be my first choice to defend myself with, I'd certainly take it over no ammo at all and, for many people, that has been a very real choice in the recent past.

Originally posted by Sans Souci
Also, revolver failures are almost always catastrophic whereas almost all semiauto malfunctions can be cleared within seconds.

Again with the same old saw, but let's stop and consider it for a moment. Revolvers are almost purely mechanical firearms as they rely on the shooter to manually operate them. As such, the majority of issues that would cause them to cease to work correctly will be parts related. On almost any firearm, a worn, broken, or out-of-spec part is much more likely to be a "catastrophic" failure than a different problem. Because of this, the revolver is more likely to experience a "catastrophic" failure if it fails at all because most of the factors which cause a "non-catastrophic" failure in a semi-auto simply are not present.

Semi-autos can and do have "catastrophic" failures from worn, broken, and out-of-spec parts too. I've personally seen broken firing pins cause all sorts of problems in both semi-automatic pistols and semi-automatic rifles ranging anywhere from a gun that won't fire to going full-auto until the magazine is empty. While I don't argue that a "non-catastrophic" failure is more common in a semi-auto, I've yet to see any evidence that a "catastrophic" failure is any more likely in a revolver.

Originally posted by Sans Souci
When it comes to defensive handguns, I'm 100% objective. That's because I like being above ground.

Just a friendly suggestion, but saying things like "That's because I like being above ground" don't really add to your argument and, in fact, damages your credibility with many. I think it's safe to say that most of us would prefer to survive a shooting and statements like that suggest, whether you intend them to or not, that those who make different choices than you don't take matters as seriously as we should. If you want to be taken seriously, it would probably be wise to omit the hyperbole.

Originally posted by Sans Souci
Double action revolvers have somewhere around 20% more parts than a semiauto. More parts = ???

A parts count, on its own, is really pretty meaningless when discussing the reliability of one firearm over another. A Jennings J-22 has far fewer parts than a CZ-75 does, but I doubt that many people would consider the Jennings to be the more reliable firearm.

Also, when you have two different mechanical devices which do the same basic thing, but one has substantially fewer parts, the one with fewer parts generally relies on many of those parts to do multiple tasks. While there may be fewer parts to potentially fail, if one that performs multiple tasks does fail it will likely affect the operation of the device in a more drastic way. For example, many semi-autos rely on the slide stop to both hold the slide open when all the cartridges in the magazine have been fired as well as holding the slide/barrel assembly together with the frame. If the slide stop breaks, not only will the slide probably not lock open on an empty magazine like it's supposed to, but the slide/barrel assembly may very well fall off the frame.

Originally posted by Sans Souci
Heck, I can completely disassemble a Sig in less that 15 seconds.

I'm going to have to go with 44 AMP on this one, the only way you could completely disassemble a Sig (or any other common handgun for that matter) is with high explosives. Now, because I don't want you to think I'm calling you a liar, let me explain that, to me, completely disassembling a gun means a detail strip down to the bare frame. I could buy that you can field strip your Sig in 15 seconds, perhaps that's what you meant to say.
 
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