The semi is prolly a better choice for law enforcement and military use where more rounds could be a plus otherwise most of us would be as well off if now better off with the revolver. Which ever you choose to carry, practice with it, spray and pray is not a very good method except at very close range.
Autoloader vs revolver..again
- Thread starter hornetguy
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All too often, loyalties prevail despite contradictory evidence. While it was probably once true that revolvers were more reliable than semiautos, that is no longer true. A good quality semiauto is more reliable than a revolver. A semiauto has fewer moving parts.
When a revolver malfunctions, it's almost always catastrophic, which means you're outta the fight. In the very, very rare circumstance of a good quality semiauto malfunctioning, it almost all cases the malfunction can be cleared in seconds and the gun back in battery.
Revolvers surrender too many tactical advantages vis-a-vis a good quality semiauto. Revolvers are larger. They hold fewer rounds. When they run out of ammo, in about three seconds (if you're good) you can load six more. And it's a good idea to practice reloading a revolver with a speed loader in complete darkness. Don't drop it and have to search for it. That could leave you at a mortal tactical disadvantage.
A semiauto can be reloaded with more rounds in less than half the time it takes to load six in a revolver. A magazine is a whole lot easier to install than working a speed loaders.
I have great affinity for revolvers. In fact, I think that the original Model 27 is one of the best handguns ever made. And its a beautiful gun. But it's not the tactical equal of a good-quality semiauto. And I think that the .357 Mag round is the most versatile handgun round. But for bipedal self-defense, there are better handgun rounds. However, were I have only one handgun, it'd be a .357 Mag.
When a revolver malfunctions, it's almost always catastrophic, which means you're outta the fight. In the very, very rare circumstance of a good quality semiauto malfunctioning, it almost all cases the malfunction can be cleared in seconds and the gun back in battery.
Revolvers surrender too many tactical advantages vis-a-vis a good quality semiauto. Revolvers are larger. They hold fewer rounds. When they run out of ammo, in about three seconds (if you're good) you can load six more. And it's a good idea to practice reloading a revolver with a speed loader in complete darkness. Don't drop it and have to search for it. That could leave you at a mortal tactical disadvantage.
A semiauto can be reloaded with more rounds in less than half the time it takes to load six in a revolver. A magazine is a whole lot easier to install than working a speed loaders.
I have great affinity for revolvers. In fact, I think that the original Model 27 is one of the best handguns ever made. And its a beautiful gun. But it's not the tactical equal of a good-quality semiauto. And I think that the .357 Mag round is the most versatile handgun round. But for bipedal self-defense, there are better handgun rounds. However, were I have only one handgun, it'd be a .357 Mag.
Firepower is what is delivered out the muzzle of the firearm. When comparing revolver to semi-auto, both have a muzzle to deliver firepower. The semi-auto will give you more ammo feed before reloading, but the revolver has fewer parts and lacks the problem of jamming. The revolver has a different feel because of its all steel frame. Both produce a "Bang". Nuf said.
Hi Boncrayon,
You might want to check schematics for a double action revolver and a double action semiauto to see which has most parts.
Revolvers do jam, if the term means failure to fire. I have had two jam on me. Both were catastrophic. My P-229 has never jammer or failed to fire. I used to carry a 5904. That was one reliable handgun. It never failed to fire.
I do like revolvers. However, were I to rely on a handgun to save my life, I'd go with a good-quality semiauto every time.
You might want to check schematics for a double action revolver and a double action semiauto to see which has most parts.
Revolvers do jam, if the term means failure to fire. I have had two jam on me. Both were catastrophic. My P-229 has never jammer or failed to fire. I used to carry a 5904. That was one reliable handgun. It never failed to fire.
I do like revolvers. However, were I to rely on a handgun to save my life, I'd go with a good-quality semiauto every time.
A bold blanket statement, one not supported by my personal experience. About half a century of recreational handgunning has taught me that EVERYTHING can jam, under the "right" conditions.
So, it behooves one to avoid those conditions.
I just don't see that with .22LRs. Nor do I see it significantly with centerfires. a "good quality semiauto" is no better than its ammo, even the best made guns won't run well on crappy ammo.
And what is a "good quality semiauto", anyway??
Better give us a list.
Which means, what, exactly?? Are you going to argue statistically more parts means more things that can break? OK, sure. What about the other side of that coin, fewer parts means each part has to do more, and since they have to work harder they are more likely to break?
Either way, it means dang little in the real world. NUMBER of parts doesn't mean squat. QUALITY of parts, design, and execution mean more.
My S&W N frames probably have more "moving parts" than a Jennings .25. I know which one I consider more reliable, and it ain't the Jennings.
I think, MOST of the time, revolver or auto, jams are the fault of the ammo, NOT the gun. Also I think the various torture tests done by the military are not really applicable to most of us in the civilian population.
It's comforting, I suppose, to know that test guns of a given make and model went through X, Y, and Z, and kept working. Now, other than blind faith, how do you know YOUR gun (same make & model) will do the same thing?
You don't, and you can't, unless you put YOUR personal gun through that same torture, and it passes. Since I don't, and won't, military tests don't mean much to me. I'm not looking for what will average out the best over 10,000 handguns, in service use. IF that's your criteria, by all means, go ahead, and enjoy.
It's nice to hear FACTS. 
I'm sure there are others that have had multiple autos that have never jammed, but revolvers that have...
I believe revolvers are slightly less likely to "jam"... but I have had a few that did.
Most of the jams I experienced had to do with some sort of debris getting under the ejector star. Usually a flake of powder.
Ammo is usually the culprit in auto jams... but they can also be an issue in revolvers. A too-light crimp on a heavy recoiling magnum can pull bullets out of case mouths far enough to lock up a cylinder.
Blanket statements about either type are usually incorrect.
I'm sure there are others that have had multiple autos that have never jammed, but revolvers that have...
I believe revolvers are slightly less likely to "jam"... but I have had a few that did.
Most of the jams I experienced had to do with some sort of debris getting under the ejector star. Usually a flake of powder.
Ammo is usually the culprit in auto jams... but they can also be an issue in revolvers. A too-light crimp on a heavy recoiling magnum can pull bullets out of case mouths far enough to lock up a cylinder.
Blanket statements about either type are usually incorrect.
deerslayer303
New member
Revolvers can malfunction simply from not using one correctly. Short stroke an LCR's trigger and see what happens. In other words, after you fire a round if you don't let the trigger ALL the way out to begin your next pull it will not do anything. On the same token some DAO autos will do that very same thing. The Taurus TCP for instance.
Hi deerslayer303,
The most troublesome malfunction I've had with a revolver was with a 586. After a few hundred rounds of .38 Special rounds, the cylinder froze. It refused to budge. It had to go to a smith.
Another was with a poorly crimped bullet that moved forward preventing the cylinder from turning.
I am personally aware of a timing issue involving a Model 15 that rendered the revolver useless. The cop carrying it had to be issued a new gun.
When revolvers fail, they're almost always catastrophic failures.
I've fired God only knows how many thousands of rounds out of S&W, Sig, & H&K semiautos w/o a single malfunction.
Were I in an unfortunate circumstance of having to save my life, I'd want a good-quality semiauto every time. But I'm good if others would prefer revolvers.
The most troublesome malfunction I've had with a revolver was with a 586. After a few hundred rounds of .38 Special rounds, the cylinder froze. It refused to budge. It had to go to a smith.
Another was with a poorly crimped bullet that moved forward preventing the cylinder from turning.
I am personally aware of a timing issue involving a Model 15 that rendered the revolver useless. The cop carrying it had to be issued a new gun.
When revolvers fail, they're almost always catastrophic failures.
I've fired God only knows how many thousands of rounds out of S&W, Sig, & H&K semiautos w/o a single malfunction.
Were I in an unfortunate circumstance of having to save my life, I'd want a good-quality semiauto every time. But I'm good if others would prefer revolvers.
Everything made by man can, and at some point, will, fail.
We can cherry pick examples, and trade lifetime experiences all day long, for our entertainment, but that's about all it is. What you, or I feel is right for us, is right, for us.
This is often true. However, it might also be looked at as "revolvers don't fail, UNTIL it is a catastrophic fail" Autos fail often, but usually earlier, before it is a catastrophic fail. (likea feeding jam).
notAgain, often this is the fault of the ammo, NOT the gun, but sometimes it is the gun, things DO break now and then. And, sometimes it in not the fault of either, but user error, or even more rarely, a combination of all.
Ammo that jumps crimp and ties up a revolver is not a revolver fail, its an ammo fail IN a revolver.
The guy whoi's auto jams constantly in his hands, but not in mine? Limp Wristing??? Maybe. Semi auto fail, or operator fail??
Uncommon situation, but happened to me, case head separation in an autoloader. Gun was done for that day. Same separation in a revolver would not have ended the gun's shooting, only reduced its capacity by one round.
Had a revolver malfunction when a part came off and got lost. But, in that particular case, the gun would still shoot, you just had to push the base pin back in all the way every shot or so.
Had a magazine base plate fail, and break off. Rounds, spring and follower dumped to the ground. If there had not been other mags, that gun would have been a single shot from then on.
EVERTHING CAN FAIL.
one semiauto I have (actually more than one) is a gun I would unhesitatingly trust my life on. Another semi (again, more than one) I would only choose if it was the last working gun I had ammo for, and even then I wouldn't trust its reliability.
One of the revolvers I've had over the years was absolutely trustworthy reliable at firing 4 rounds out of 6. And, not always the same four!!
(yes, that one needed to be fixed)
Another situation I ran into was with my own father's guns, after he passed on. Didn't use, and probably never even looked at his guns during the last years of his life. (I live on the other side of the country, and was no help for this).
His semi auto (his defense gun) I found in his dresser drawer. A revolver was on a closet shelf. Both had gotten the same amount of care (none) for a good decade or more. The semi, when cleared, stuck with the slide about half closed, due to old dried up (gummy) lube. The revolver cycled perfectly.
Some things stop both of them. Some things stop one and not the other, and other things do the reverse.
Properly cared for, feed good ammo, both work quite well. Until they don't.
Both need to be maintained and operated CORRECTLY, or they will fail.
Choosing a failure of a specific gun, under specific circumstances, and claiming it applies to all guns in that class, in all conditions is a falsehood, and one we should avoid.
We can cherry pick examples, and trade lifetime experiences all day long, for our entertainment, but that's about all it is. What you, or I feel is right for us, is right, for us.
This is often true. However, it might also be looked at as "revolvers don't fail, UNTIL it is a catastrophic fail" Autos fail often, but usually earlier, before it is a catastrophic fail. (likea feeding jam).
notAgain, often this is the fault of the ammo, NOT the gun, but sometimes it is the gun, things DO break now and then. And, sometimes it in not the fault of either, but user error, or even more rarely, a combination of all.
Ammo that jumps crimp and ties up a revolver is not a revolver fail, its an ammo fail IN a revolver.
The guy whoi's auto jams constantly in his hands, but not in mine? Limp Wristing??? Maybe. Semi auto fail, or operator fail??
Uncommon situation, but happened to me, case head separation in an autoloader. Gun was done for that day. Same separation in a revolver would not have ended the gun's shooting, only reduced its capacity by one round.
Had a revolver malfunction when a part came off and got lost. But, in that particular case, the gun would still shoot, you just had to push the base pin back in all the way every shot or so.
Had a magazine base plate fail, and break off. Rounds, spring and follower dumped to the ground. If there had not been other mags, that gun would have been a single shot from then on.
EVERTHING CAN FAIL.
one semiauto I have (actually more than one) is a gun I would unhesitatingly trust my life on. Another semi (again, more than one) I would only choose if it was the last working gun I had ammo for, and even then I wouldn't trust its reliability.
One of the revolvers I've had over the years was absolutely trustworthy reliable at firing 4 rounds out of 6. And, not always the same four!!
(yes, that one needed to be fixed)
Another situation I ran into was with my own father's guns, after he passed on. Didn't use, and probably never even looked at his guns during the last years of his life. (I live on the other side of the country, and was no help for this).
His semi auto (his defense gun) I found in his dresser drawer. A revolver was on a closet shelf. Both had gotten the same amount of care (none) for a good decade or more. The semi, when cleared, stuck with the slide about half closed, due to old dried up (gummy) lube. The revolver cycled perfectly.
Some things stop both of them. Some things stop one and not the other, and other things do the reverse.
Properly cared for, feed good ammo, both work quite well. Until they don't.
Both need to be maintained and operated CORRECTLY, or they will fail.
Choosing a failure of a specific gun, under specific circumstances, and claiming it applies to all guns in that class, in all conditions is a falsehood, and one we should avoid.
45 auto,
It wasn't wasted. I fact, you paid for my training. Not only did it not cost me a thin dime, I was paid (lots of it was O/T) to shoot the heck outta guns. How are you gonna beat that? ;-)
Other than craps, I don't gamble. And I sure as heck wouldn't gamble with my taxpaying status in the outcome.
It wasn't wasted. I fact, you paid for my training. Not only did it not cost me a thin dime, I was paid (lots of it was O/T) to shoot the heck outta guns. How are you gonna beat that? ;-)
Other than craps, I don't gamble. And I sure as heck wouldn't gamble with my taxpaying status in the outcome.
44 AMP,
I do agree with you in that everything mechanical has a predetermined probability of failure.
While I've never had a service semiauto of any manufacturer suffer any type of failure, if, God forbid, they do fail (failure to feed, double feed, etc) the problem is very easily cleared and you'd be back in battery before a blackjack dealer can flip his hole card.
In the case of a revolver, when it's timing mechanism fails or its cylinder seizes, it'd become a decent throwing object.
I've yet to see a revolver fail that wasn't catastrophic.
As you've written, everything mechanical has a predetermined probability of failure.
Take care,
Sans
I do agree with you in that everything mechanical has a predetermined probability of failure.
While I've never had a service semiauto of any manufacturer suffer any type of failure, if, God forbid, they do fail (failure to feed, double feed, etc) the problem is very easily cleared and you'd be back in battery before a blackjack dealer can flip his hole card.
In the case of a revolver, when it's timing mechanism fails or its cylinder seizes, it'd become a decent throwing object.
I've yet to see a revolver fail that wasn't catastrophic.
As you've written, everything mechanical has a predetermined probability of failure.
Take care,
Sans
My SA colt .22lr revolver has jammed a few times while trying to unload it and the empty casing gets the cylinder stuck. Usually takes a few minutes to fix it.
I prefer semis over revolvers for carry because I'm more proficient reloading them than I am revolvers. Though when I get a nice holster for my model 10 I will likely carry it from time to time.
My semi auto failures have all been very quick fixes. I was at the range today and haven't cleaned one of my pistols for awhile and it failed to strip a round from the magazine once, which I solved by racking the slide manually. Another failed to eject a spent casing properly. Looked like a double feed so I removed the mag, racked the slide which removed the empty casing, and reloaded the mag and chambered a round, good to go.
Sure, those would be horrible happenings in a self defense situation, but I'd definitely prefer the semi over a jam with my .22 single action revolver, haha.
That being said my model 10 has never had an issue. Though I haven't fired more than 500 rounds thru it so far, probably a lot less to be honest.
I prefer semis over revolvers for carry because I'm more proficient reloading them than I am revolvers. Though when I get a nice holster for my model 10 I will likely carry it from time to time.
My semi auto failures have all been very quick fixes. I was at the range today and haven't cleaned one of my pistols for awhile and it failed to strip a round from the magazine once, which I solved by racking the slide manually. Another failed to eject a spent casing properly. Looked like a double feed so I removed the mag, racked the slide which removed the empty casing, and reloaded the mag and chambered a round, good to go.
Sure, those would be horrible happenings in a self defense situation, but I'd definitely prefer the semi over a jam with my .22 single action revolver, haha.
That being said my model 10 has never had an issue. Though I haven't fired more than 500 rounds thru it so far, probably a lot less to be honest.
I find it very hard to believe that, in your extensive, taxpayer-funded experience, you've never had a semi-auto of any manufacture suffer any type of failure. I've not had taxpayer-funded training and experience, but I've seen too many failures of various sorts to count including from supposedly first quality semi-autos from makers like Glock, Sig, HK, S&W, Walther, Beretta, Ruger, and Colt. Also, not every failure of a semi-auto is easily and quickly fixed. I've seen firing pins break, worn magazine catches that wouldn't retain a loaded mag, worn extractors that would leave fired cases in the chamber (leading to particularly nasty double-feed jams), separated cases that stuck in the chamber, Recoil springs get launched downrange, and one particularly vexatious incident where a 9mm with a too-long OAL stuck so tightly in the chamber that the gun had to be disassembled to get it out. I've also seen semi-autos malfunction badly enough to be dangerous to the user such as the Star 9mm which had a worn sear that wouldn't consistently hold the hammer back in the cocked position when the gun cycled.
I've also experienced problems with revolvers, but only twice have they been so bad that I could not shoot the remaining rounds in the cylinder: a broken firing pin on one and a bullet stuck between the cylinder and forcing cone of another. Every other problem I've had, while annoying or inconvenient, could be remedied well enough to allow the gun to continue to fire on the spot and without tools.
I really think that 44 AMP was onto something when he made this statement:
I suspect that, truth be known, the majority of "catastrophic failures" we hear about in revolvers are likely preventable. In my experience, revolvers very rarely go straight from perfect working order to completely inoperable, rather they give often subtle warning signs that something is amiss. Things like a trigger pull that becomes noticeably heavier and grittier, a cylinder that increasingly requires more force to open and close, off center primer hits, occasional misfires, or lead splattering on the sides of the forcing cone are all signs that something in the gun needs to be addressed. Unfortunately, many people either don't recognize these warning signs or are foolish enough to ignore them and keep shooting until the revolver stops working entirely. When this does happen, people who didn't recognize the warning signs too often assume that revolvers just spontaneously lock up.
A semi-auto, on the other hand, gives much more obvious warning that something's wrong before getting to the point of a catastrophic failure. Chronic failures to feed, fire, and/or eject are usually obvious and bothersome enough to make the shooter look into the problem before it gets to the point of "catastrophic failure".
In my experience a revolver will usually continue to work even with minor problems much longer than a semi-auto will. This is because a revolver is an almost entirely mechanical firearm which means that so long as the shooter can manually cycle the action, it will usually continue to work. A semi-auto, however, is dependent upon recoil impulse, inertia, slide velocity, and an at least somewhat firm grip by the shooter in order to work reliably. If any of those aspects fall below a certain minimum threshold, the gun will most likely stop working.
I could buy that a first-quality semi-auto, if well maintained, fed first-quality ammunition, and fired with the proper technique by the shooter is almost as reliable as a comparable quality revolver under the same conditions for maintenance, ammo, and shooting technique. However, I cannot get behind the blanket statement that semi-autos are more reliable because a semi-auto requires a much narrower set of circumstances to work reliably and, quite frankly, I've seen far too many semi-autos that were supposedly the best-of-the-best malfunction under relatively mundane circumstances.
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I find this to be a different matter than the earlier statement.
Now, if we are to talk about service semiautos ONLY, that's another matter again.
But even if we do that, it still doesn't support the blanket statement. Not unless you even further narrowly define service semiauto.
Because, for just one example, service semiauto without further definition would have to include a world famous service semiauto, one with a less than stellar reputation for reliability,
The P.08 Luger
If you want to base reliability statements about semis only on modern polymer framed striker fired pistols (for example) then just come out and say so.
Semi auto handguns includes ALL of them, from pocket .22s through service guns to those rare magnum autopistols. That's a very wide range of guns, with a very wide range of performance, good and bad.
I will agree that GENERALLY, stoppages in a revolver are more work to "unstop" than they are in a semi auto. However, exceptions exist, I have personally experienced several different ones over the years.
I'm usually ok with sweeping statements that include accurate modifiers to allow for exceptions. They turn an obviously inaccurate statement into an accurate one, more often than not....
Webley,
"I find it very hard to believe that, in your extensive, taxpayer-funded experience, you've never had a semi-auto of any manufacture suffer any type of failure."
Are you implying that I'm a liar?
I personally know a 5904 test that fired 10k rounds w/o cleaning. It never failed. I'd like to see any revolver do that.
You do what you have to do to convinced yourself that your tightly help beliefs are not revealed as fantasy. But you ought to be damned careful about alleging others are liars.
"I find it very hard to believe that, in your extensive, taxpayer-funded experience, you've never had a semi-auto of any manufacture suffer any type of failure."
Are you implying that I'm a liar?
I personally know a 5904 test that fired 10k rounds w/o cleaning. It never failed. I'd like to see any revolver do that.
You do what you have to do to convinced yourself that your tightly help beliefs are not revealed as fantasy. But you ought to be damned careful about alleging others are liars.
I'm implying just what I said, I find it very hard to believe that, if your experience is as extensive as you suggest, you've not seen any failure of any sort in a service semi-auto of any manufacture. If you said that you've never seen any sort of failure in a particular model of semi-auto, or that you'd never seen a failure that wasn't user or ammo induced, then I wouldn't have such a hard time believing it, but such a blanket statement is hard to swallow. Now, perhaps you've seen one that you've forgotten about, perhaps you didn't mean to word your claim so absolutely, or perhaps your experience isn't as extensive as I thought you were trying to imply. I don't know you or what you've seen so I won't go so far as to call you a liar, but your claim, at least as it's been presented, does seem rather exaggerated.
I personally know of a lot of guns of all types that have been fired with copious amounts of ammunition for years on end without cleaning, but it doesn't mean that another example of the same model would do the same. A sample size of one doesn't prove anything one way or the other.
Touchy aren't we? You certainly don't know me and you certainly don't know what I believe or how I came to the conclusions that I did. I actually started out on semi-autos and still own and trust several, as a matter of fact my collection is pretty evenly split between revolvers and semi-autos. However, I've come to the conclusions I have based not on what some anonymous person on the internet says or what I read in some book or magazine, but based on my own firsthand experiences. As to alleging you to be a liar, I never said that because I am "damned careful" about doing so. I said that I find your claim "hard to believe" because I recognize that you may have misspoken or that it wasn't interpreted the way you meant and I wanted to give you a chance to qualify or explain it before I dismiss you as not being credible.
Things are getting a bit ugly around here.
But to put things in perspective and iterate the facts from other times and places:
Revolvers are divinely inspired.
Autoloaders are cobbled together Frankenstein objects by crazed and drunken
men who worked in their garages during dreary days and stormy nights.
But to put things in perspective and iterate the facts from other times and places:
Revolvers are divinely inspired.
Autoloaders are cobbled together Frankenstein objects by crazed and drunken
men who worked in their garages during dreary days and stormy nights.
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