Anyone Else "Done" with Ultra Compact Guns?

When I first got me ccw I carried a KT p32, then for 8 years I carried a Kahr P9. Today I carry a Glock 19. What ever your comfortable carrying and you shoot well.
 
I've owned so many different guns I can't keep up. I've had tons of ultra compact "pocket rockets" and with every one I feel undergunned. I finally sold off my last one recently and went back to a true compact gun, my tried and true, and all-time favorite, GLOCK 19...

Anyone else done something similar?

I can shoot small guns just fine, it was the ammo capacity that bothered me the most. So many times now I hear about multiple assailants in defensive situations. I just want to be prepared.

We seem to be thinking pretty much the same here.

When I first got my carry permit I figured that I would go with small CCW pistols. Since I live in a non-carry state I only carry part-time, I can only carry when in a state which honors my UT non-res permit (which is relatively often, but still quite part-time at only a couple times a month typically). I figured I'd never really get used to it, so while a larger gun may be nice for the winter when I'm wearing more clothing, I'd go as small as possible for spring through autumn.

Well, a few things happened.

I really don't like pocket carry (though when I carry at home it can be easier to drop a gun and pocket holster in my pocket when I get home and take it out when I leave than to have to holster and unholster an IWB or belt holster). I have pretty much completely stopped pocket carry and for years now I've considered selling my S&W 442 and Ruger LCP. I also never really warmed to my Kel Tec PF-9. So, those guns are on the chopping block as soon as I get around to taking them to the dealer to put on consignment.

My preferred carry is IWB. I like to tuck my shirts most of the time, and not wanting to change my style for carry, I wanted IWB tuckable holsters and guns that are small enough to conceal tucked. My usual CCW's are currently (for the past few years) a SIG P290RS for warmer weather clothing and a .45ACP SIG P250 Compact for cooler weather (on some occasions in the winter I'll carry a full-sized .45LC S&W 625 Mountain Gun in a belt holster). My last two vacations (several days last March with the P250, and about a week this summer with the P290) I learned some valuable insights with my more extended carry time than a few hours to a day or so. I found that, when carrying all day, I would often get lazy and even with the P290 I would leave my shirt untucked (especially when wearing a polo instead of a button down). If I'm going to be untucked anyway, the larger P250 Compact will conceal just fine. Also, last spring, I did carry the P250 tucked quite a bit. I did initially feel quite a bit more conspicuous, and when I checked in the mirror it may have printed a little with some tighter shirts, however, no one seemed to really notice and I quickly became more confident carrying this gun IWB/tucked. For a compact gun the P250 Compact isn't the widest gun out there, but it definitely isn't the thinnest (1.3" with the medium grip module, I think it may be 1.4" with the large, and I believe that the .45ACP Compact comes with the large). Width does seem to be the main limitation for IWB/tucked carry. If I want to be a little less conspicuous and easily conceal in pretty much any clothing, I think a slightly narrower gun will do it, but isn't really needed. So, the larger gun will be fine, and even with the P290 I feel pretty conspicuous for the first few hours if it has been more than a couple weeks since I was last in a carry state so it doesn't even give me an advantage in feeling less conspicuous over a larger (more capable) gun.

I had wanted a smaller .40S&W for summer months for easier IWB/tucked carry than my P250 and was thinking about getting a Glock 27. Now, after that spring camping trip in VA, I'm thinking I may not bother. Don't get me wrong, I'd love an excuse for another gun, and I don't currently have a functioning .40S&W, so I will get a .40S&W. However, I'm thinking something with a bit more capacity than the G27. I'm probably going to get a G22, G23, a .40S&W SIG P250 Compact or possibly something else (I haven't really looked at all my options yet). I may go with a SIG P2022 or P229, or a CZ P06 (though none of those will be any narrower than my .45ACP P250 Compact).

On the revolver front, I no longer want to carry a .38spl 5-shot J-frame. I know that the chances of needing a gun are pretty low to begin with, and usually when someone does need one there is one attacker and a couple shots is enough. However, with the stakes what they are, and while still quite rare (even when a gun is needed) I want to be better prepared when/if I ever need more. I do now have a 3" Rossi 461 that I'll carry after I've shot it enough to trust it (it is only 6 rounds, but I will load it with 125gr .357mag), and that .45LC S&W 625 I sometimes carry on the belt now has a Galco Summer Comfort IWB (not tuckable) that I'll be experimenting with for occasional year round carry when I'll be wearing an untucked shirt or other cover garment. I will probably keep the 2" Rossi 461 (6-shot .357mag) or Taurus 85 (5 shot .38spl) for occasional back up duties on an ankle holster, but I don't see either getting much use and I'll probably be selling one and maybe both.
 
I don't know what this talk is about "marginally effective" with a pistol that is easily to conceal. Most folks I shoot with can hit the 8 ring in a B-27 target at 25 yards most of the time with a Sig P290, Kahr, Glock 42, Ruger LC9, etc. Move them up to the 10 yard line and hit % goes to near 100. Most personal SD situations will be at 10 yards or less.

I wouldn't call any gun (especially any gun 9mm or above) "marginally effective," at least in absolute terms, but in comparison to a larger gun it is less effective/less capable. Given enough training with the gun, most anyone can become quite accurate with nearly any gun. However, given the same amount of training, one would be even more accurate with a heavier gun. The heavier gun will have a longer sight radius which makes it easier to aim well, and I'd guess that with that starting point, one would probably be a better shot (this is probably the least likely part of my argument to actually pan out). More importantly, since a heavier gun is more pleasant to shoot in a more extended range session, most people will spend more time shooting the heavier guns than a lighter gun, which will result in them being more proficient with the larger/heavier gun. Even if you are equally accurate with either gun, the larger/heavier gun should have less recoil and muzzle snap, and thus be quicker to get back on target for quicker follow up shots. Thus, a larger gun should be more capable than a smaller gun.

In police shootings, most police departments average around a 30% hit rate. So, no matter how good you are on the range, chances are, in a self defense situation where the adrenaline is running high, you will have a few misses. It can also take 2-3 (or more) shots to stop a determined attacker, and it is always possible to have more than one attacker. With those odds, I'd rather have the 10-15 rounds of a compact or larger gun than the 5-8 typical of a subcompact. Since both autos and revolvers have their separate advantages, but to take advantage of the revolver advantages you sacrifice capacity, when going with a revolver I would want a larger revolver running 6 rounds of .45LC or 6-7 rounds of .357mag than a 5-shot J-frame running .38spl.

So, while compact guns can certainly be effective, a larger and heavier gun will certainly be more effective with the same training and skill development.
 
My LC9s isn't going anywhere. Aimed fire out to ten yards most all shots are under 2" and rapid fire under 5". I carry it everywhere with an extended 9+1 and a spare extended mag. I don't feel the least bit under gunned. I've put well over 2000 rounds through it without a single hiccup.
 
In police shootings, most police departments average around a 30% hit rate. So, no matter how good you are on the range, chances are, in a self defense situation where the adrenaline is running high, you will have a few misses. It can also take 2-3 (or more) shots to stop a determined attacker, and it is always possible to have more than one attacker. With those odds, I'd rather have the 10-15 rounds of a compact or larger gun than the 5-8 typical of a subcompact. Since both autos and revolvers have their separate advantages, but to take advantage of the revolver advantages you sacrifice capacity, when going with a revolver I would want a larger revolver running 6 rounds of .45LC or 6-7 rounds of .357mag than a 5-shot J-frame running .38spl.


We are not the police. We do not have to aggressively pursue BGs, nor do we have to engage in long range gun fights with them(nor is it even legal for us in many cases). This is why the hit to miss ratio is so high in police type shootings. Big difference and no comparison between them and the standard civilian CWC for SD. Most of us are CWCing against being attacked at close range in a alley or place of business by a BG that will run at the first sight or sound of a gun. Our shots are going to be measures in inches and feet, not yards. We also by law are required to stop shooting when the threat is our life and the lives of those close to us has passed. Again, if having a capacity of 17 rounds is what makes you feel safe, good for you. Does not mean those of us that feel safe with 5-7 round capacity and spare rounds/mags in our pocket are endangering ourselves and those around us.
 
Personally, I have little need for a micro unless it is on a backup pistol role. Let's be honest with ourselves, if we are carrying concealed then we damn well better decide on an EDC that can stop a potential threat. Many micro's are just not enough gun to be a primary carry weapon. Chances are, if you find yourself in a situation where you need to defend yourself from armed attack then your attacker will likely not be carrying a mouse gun. It's an offense versus defense mindset. Put yourself in the other persons shoes, would you attempt a carjacking, robbery, home invasion, etc, while armed with a cap pistol? The answer is NO. The bad guys play by a different set of rules. I would advocate for carrying the type of weapon that you feel you could go to war with. It doesn't need to be a full size duty weapon with multiple spares. But, it needs to be 'enough gun' to allow you to feel confident in your ability to employ it well enough to save your life when the time comes.

SO I guess anything less than .45 won't do? A .380 or 9mm is like a cap gun? A micro pistol isn't big enough to defend yourself? Seriously? Lol, good one. I bet you're man enough to stand in front of an LCP and take a shot to prove it won't stop you. Here I thought that a SD gun was meant for SD but you act like you're going into full combat in Afghanistan. See, the reason for a SD piece is to stop a threat so you can go home. It's not to take out ISIS alone. If you want a high capacity forty whatever then good for you but to compare a .380 or a 38 Special to a cap pistol is showing how much you don't know about guns.
 
Regarding the OP: It depends on what you consider to be an "Ultra Compact". To me, that is something along the lines of a P32 or a P3AT. Honestly, I've never bothered to go that route in the first place. That said, my EDC is a PF-9 that I've been carrying for years and I am happy with it. I have no plans to change from it. It is reliable, comfortable to carry, and sufficient for my purposes.
 
The older I get, the more "traditional" I find myself getting...as in OWB carry, with a compact to full-sized pistol or revolver. Strange. :o
 
In police shootings, most police departments average around a 30% hit rate. So, no matter how good you are on the range, chances are, in a self defense situation where the adrenaline is running high, you will have a few misses. It can also take 2-3 (or more) shots to stop a determined attacker, and it is always possible to have more than one attacker. With those odds, I'd rather have the 10-15 rounds of a compact or larger gun than the 5-8 typical of a subcompact. Since both autos and revolvers have their separate advantages, but to take advantage of the revolver advantages you sacrifice capacity, when going with a revolver I would want a larger revolver running 6 rounds of .45LC or 6-7 rounds of .357mag than a 5-shot J-frame running .38spl.

And I can say with confidence and authority that only about half of law enforcement officers actually practice outside of mandatory firearms training, and many agencies require you to only qualify yearly. Cops, as a percentage of the population, are much better shots than civilians... but cops on average are still mediocre shots at best. Probably any firearms enthusiast who is a long time member of TFL could shoot a 95% or better on most LEO qualification tables. So... the moral of the story is, anyone here who carries and trains at least semi-frequently probably has a leg up on more than half of the cops roaming the street.

Police shootings aren't a bad statistic to quote, but it really is an apples to oranges comparison if you compare someone who goes to the range at least a couple times a month. If you do this, you train more than 80% of LEOs. If you devote a portion of that training to a "marginally effective micro pistol," then you can be quite competent and well armed with it. And, at the end of the day, I WILL carry my Kahr or P290 pretty much no matter what. It is nothing to carry it IWB at 4 o'clock. I don't even have to adjust pant size. If I am not on duty and not required to carry, I will probably leave even the compact G19 at home unless I just throw it on the belt. Then, I am not really CCW.
 
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It is true that police have to pursue bad guys and we don't, and they sometimes engage at ranges we will likely not need to worry about. Also, some police don't train much on their own, so many serious firearms enthusiasts will likely be better shots than the average police officer (and certainly than the lower 1/3). Though, when the SHTF and you are in a self defense situation and you have the adrenaline dump in your body, you will not be as good a shot as you are at the range, no matter how much training. Is it possible that with more practice and close range some of us will be near 100% accurate? Sure, it it is possible, however I do not like to plan for a best case scenario when the stakes are so high (life or death). I assume that somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of my rounds will likely miss, and as many as 2/3 (the police ratio) is not unlikely for many of us (do all CCW holders train with their CCW weapon more than the police, I'd guess the answer is no, and the police are using full sized service pistols which are much easier to handle and control than a more typical CCW gun, a small .380 or micro 9).

Anyway, we each have our own choice to make, weigh the pros and cons of each option as we see them, and decide for ourselves. I really don't care to change anyone's mind. Carry the best combination of what you find comfortable to carry and what makes you comfortable when you carry it (I hope that wording works to convey how I mean it). All CCW is a compromise (no one is carrying an M16, M14, etc), and you have to weigh the compromises for yourself. There is no wrong answer.


That said, since my last post, I have bought a new gun with CCW in mind. In addition to my .45ACP SIG P250 Compact, I now have another true compact for carry. On Thurs I picked up a CZ P01 and I suspect that between the new P01 and the P250 they'll get about 90% of my out of state carry (with the P290 or a 2" small frame revolver getting the nod those few times where I can't conceal something bigger, and maybe as a backup gun with an ankle or pocket holster). I'm still looking for a similar sized .40 or .357SIG to have all bases covered.
 
Some crooks will run at the sight of a gun but what needs to be considered is that there are a lot of very tough, aggressive, and desperate criminals out there who simply aren't scared of anything. They've been shot, cut, and beaten and done time in the Big House and nothing scares them. There's drugs out there that give people crazy strength and pain tolerance. These people are becoming more common nothing is going to stop them from whatever it takes to get their next fix. They don't always act alone either.

I say carry what you'd be willing to face that guy with. This isn't zombie horde fantasy stuff. Your 380 might kill him, but will it stop him?
 
I've never carried anything smaller than my PPS M2, and as easy as it is to conceal I don't see why I would. With the extended 7 round mag I can get a full grip and the gun disappears on me, even when just wearing a t-shirt.

When I'm out with my wife and son I usually opt for a larger capacity compact gun, even though I lose some conceal-ability and comfort.
 
.....

I'd guess I can't "be done with" some foolishness I never took up in the first place, having subscribed to the "Use enough gun." school early on ..... so yes, but no.....

If anything, I'm looking at moving back up to bigger gun.
 
The only only sub compact guns I have are a Beretta 950 in 25 auto and an Iver Johnson TP-22 and they know the peace of having a permanent home. No, they aren't going anywhere. And if I find a deal on a NAA 22/22mag I will buy it too.
 
I like something big enough to get a good grip on, have actual sights, and hold at least 6 rounds. Prefer magazine fed for the ease of a single reload. I really like to stick to 9mm because most of the .380 hollow points are marginally effective at what they do and the jump from a .380 FMJ to a decent 9mm bonded hollow point is pretty big.

Right now I have the CZ P-01 and it works well for me. Shoots like a dream, I know how to shoot it well, it holds a decent amount of ammo, and it's my preferred operating system (double/single action with a decocker and no manual safety)

I have thought about getting something smaller to go in a pocket or easier in a belt (especially if I end up moving to South Florida as it looks like I may). Were I do to so, it would probably be a Glock 43 or S&W Shield. I feel the Sig 238 is about as small as I feel effective in a handgun and the Glock 43/Shield are both very appropriately sized.
 
No.

I want as compact and light as possible.

Best I have found so far is the Taurus TCP 380. I may take a look at the compact 9s to see just how much bigger they are. I would appreciate a bit more power, but I won't carry a much bigger gun to get it.

Ever seen a pack of thugs react to a gunshot? Cockroaches WISH they could scatter so quickly. I don't feel terribly under gunned with a 380. If I was going into combat against Russian special forces I would want more gun. But against a gang of urban youths looking to rat pack somebody of a different color, I suspect the 380 will work fine since you won't get more than one shot at them anyway before they split.

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