Annealing

The discoloring has "NO" correlation to whether or not you reached the correct temp . I tested this as well and found the heat/temperature of the flame as well as location and angle of the flame on the case greatly contributes to the discoloring or lack there of on the case .

I had a good picture showing this but since changed computers and imageshake lost the one I uploaded so I no longer have it . How ever my pic above using the propane torch on low had no anneal marks after heating it to the correct temp . as seen in the pic

Sorry I just went looking through my annealing photos and it appears I have many missing . This is the only pic I have left that gives a general idea what "my" 308 cases look like after annealing . Then after tumbling those marks are almost completely removed
zez5.jpg
 
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I found when I remove ALL case lube, cleaners, waxes etc. I get a lot less discoloration, almost none in fact, just like Metal God.

Factories used natural gas, and they don't clean the lube off so they get more discoloration. LP gas doesn't discolor like natural gas does simply because natural gas is corrosive.

Military doesn't care, while civilian producers are going to polish the case afterwards.

The 'Rainbow' is the heat transition zone, between annealed and non-effected.
I only see this when the cases have been cooked right to the limit or beyond, but like I said, I clean off lube before annealing & I only heat to the point to get consistancy, not to 'Dead Soft'.
Those last 5 Rockwell points aren't worth ruining cases for.

I like a nice consistant case neck hold/tension rather than annealing for a particular 'Color' or other outdated dogma about what I'm 'Supposed' to be doing.
 
well you guys have worn me down. In the interest of consistency on neck tension to see if I can further reduce my velocity SD.

I ordered a motor, speed controller etc to build a home grown annealing machine. There are dozens of plans out there but one of the simpler designs would be found here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0xE-6bSwME&ytbChannel=Elfster's Rifles and Reloading

total parts on Amazon including a tempilaq stick was 60 bucks using already owned shop scrap, existing torch etc
 
There are dozens of plans out there but one of the simpler designs would be found here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0xE...nd Reloading

total parts on Amazon including a tempilaq stick was 60 bucks using already owned shop scrap, existing torch etc
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hounddawg, you win; again, I made my own annealer by simply going through the rules and deciding what rules and factors were important and necessary. When finished I thought to my self; "that's all?", "That is all there is to 'it'?". And of course, I went through the 'why' rational. And then, I decided time was a factor at the same time I was being told 'candles work'.

Everyday I am reminded there are times GOD bangs his head on his desk, we have a radio station that gives a list of Darwin winners for the day; the opening for the show starts with: "Reasons GOD bangs his head on his desk".

F. Guffey
 
I made my own annealer by simply going through the rules and deciding what rules and factors were important and necessary. When finished I thought to my self; "that's all?", "That is all there is to 'it'?". And of course, I went through the 'why' rational. And then, I decided time was a factor at the same time I was being told 'candles work'.
Click to expand...

"annealing time" is exactly why I decided to build. The last couple of days I read every study, dissertation, and just plain old opinion I could find on the net concerning rifle case annealing and the one thing I cannot control with my drill socket and dump method was making sure the cases were exactly in the same place in the flame for the precise amount of time each annealing.

Since I only do annealing of 400 cases twice a year at most the thought of spending several hundred on an annealing machine was hard to get past. That buys a lot of powder and bullets with which to work on range time technique. However just about anyone with a couple of basic hand tools can assemble their own for less than $100.

Now I am not saying that this alone will get me down to single digits on the chrono SD's but having the case necks at the same hardness cannot hurt.

That's why I read this forum, even when I am not posting it makes me reevaluate my methods and hopefully improve my reloads.

Just my 2 cents worth
 
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I am going to weigh in with some more information and repeat some that my brother has found (and JH lists in his last response as well, i.e. the residue in a case and what it does to the process)

First I want to bust a myth that I keep seeing, the case is bright and shiny and they don't anneal like Lapua does.

Yes they ALL anneal, most polish it off, Lapua and PPU use it as a badge of having done it (my take) and a way to separate themselves from the other brass low lifes (joke) (I am increasing impressed with PPU rifle)

I got my Annie in and I had brass that was due for annealing so I did batches of brass and did some loading after as I had a nice day to go play at the range.

Purely by chance, my Annie (electric induction heater for those not up to this) got setup to where I could look down the case mouth while running it, the room was lit and broad daylight out. Suggested start point for the Annie is 2 to 4 seconds for 30 caliber.

My brother had come up with 1.9 and I figured that it was better to start conservative (he has changed due to cleaning his cases and I will add that to this in a bit but his anneal time actually went up with clean. )

I got just a hint of red glow at the end of some of the cases at 1.9. Hmmm, we know that is iffy at best. Now the benefit to the Annie is I am just holding the case, the timing is being done automatically (down to the tenth JH mentions). I can focus fully on the case as its going to cutoff by itself.

Ok, we know under is better than over (taken with a bit of salt here, over is ok as long as over does not go down the case, it just permanently softens the case and you have good hunting cases but not target grade and target is what I do) .

So, when all was said and done, I am down to 1.7 seconds which percentage out of the time involved is a lot.

Also note that not all cases got a hit of red inside at the higher setting, but 1.7 made sure there was none . I am still getting the hint of what I call color change blush down the outside of the case.

Then as I was testing on throw away cases I had a couple of 270 cases. Full red glow down the neck at 1.9.

Yep, another variable.

Add in that the Annie changes output as it warms up, you do the first 10 and then set aside and then do them again when cool.

I am guessing that no two Annies are the same power output wise either.

If I was doing this by hand and look, the red glow would have bloomed larger and further down before I could react (exactly as JH noted)

I also would be too busy with the rest of the process to respond fast.

As noted, the variable is also how much carbon is in the case (if you don't clean them out like I have not yet and JH and my brother have found you get much more consistent results)

So that takes us to MG, going with the inside of the case with templac at least if they are dirty is the better way to go.

That gets into a test and timing issue.

There is a term in the tech world called "noise"

What that means is if your equipment sees the noise it can't see the underling data. You have to eliminate noise (variables) . For us its all those variables.

My brother and JH have both hit on one of those important variables, carbon in the case (which I would not have thought been an issue). I can adjust somewhat by reducing the timing, I may not get quite as good an anneal, but I can also adjust that by doing it more often (and I tend to keep 600 to 1000 cases of each of 3 calibers brass around so I have large process runs so I can do a lot at once and not back and forth all the time.

But this also gets us back to torches, trying to control all the variables of a torch is really difficult. MG has worked hard at it and maybe the only one who has truly succeeded.


I suspect with the Annie I can stay in a safe zone, with a torch you better be doing serious on going quality control testing like MG or the heat content of your propane or map, humidity in the air, carbon and timing all can bite you.

Ie. induction is vastly better and as we have seen, even then not perfect without a last cleaning step (more money, more bench space taken up, more time spent at it)

My take is that for all but a select few, the torch guys are fooling themselves. They are most likely over annealed on the neck, shoulder maybe is ok and have not gotten down the case to where it would bite.

I am going to play with the Templac inside the case just out of curiosity.

And while the Annie is a great machine, I will send Doug an email and suggest starting at point of 1.5 seconds for 30 caliber ammo.

308 and 30-06 both react very close to the same. 7.5 Swiss will be interesting as its a larger case and shoulder vs the other two. I may well have a variable there to adjust for.

Eventually I will probably move to the case cleaning for the run through of when I do the annealing anyway (plan is 1 in 5 shootings)

In the mean time as this goes on, there is a lot to think about in all this.
 
Houndog:

This is not meant with any disrespect and your information was definitely interesting.


and nothing to do with wearing people down, out of a spirited technical discussion we can get rid of fake news (urban legends)

Then each person can make an truly informed decisions.

I am not one that makes his mind up quickly, annealing is one of those where I have floated ideas but have not had it firmed up, but the in person work with the Annie as well as the rest posted here and talking with and seeing my brothers results I am fully on the side of Induction and feel torches do not truly work for a true anneal for 95% or better.

As Mr. Guffey has pointed out, a candle works, kind of slow though.

As for the rest, I don't think there is any real low cost way to go about this (short of an induction unit that you build yourself) Where is Heath Kit when you nee them?

MG is the only torch type I have seen post that has a quality control program in place that I think may work (and think is an operative word here).

I am firmly convinced for 95% or better, torches do not work for the full desired result. That does not mean disaster, just not a fully correct anneal.

Avoiding split necks is not the goal, split necks are a symptom.

Getting the right tension on the neck is the goal and when that occurs split necks do not occur.

They also do not occur if its overdone. Solving a symptom does not mean the underlying issue / goal is addressed or achieved.

But if the biggest goal is to avoid split necks and throwing away brass, then a torch can indeed do that and as long as the body is not over heated, no harm done.
 
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For those who want to get super precise on their annealing ditch the torch and the induction heaters and use a electric lead melting pot and low temperature nitrate salts for less than $100.

Set the thermostat to exactly 700 or 750 with a infrared thermometer and make a jig that would hold 4 or 5 of the cases so you can dunk them neck first into the molten salts to the bottom of the neck/shoulder and use a timer. That would be a more precise than torch and about 1/5th the cost of a induction heater

Then if you really want to go the extra mile you can have a industrial lab do a hardness test on a annealed and a unannealed case neck to see if you are getting sufficient softening.

Or you could just continue using methods which have served thousands of reloaders for decades now
 
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The concept of a forums to exchange ideas, disagree and present evidence for or against a concept.

I suppose there is a version of Breitbart reloading if you want to confirm what you knew all along.

Some years back we got one of the single best books on fasteners and their uses I ever came across (Bowman company)

In that book it discussed lock washers and their total lack of working. Somewhere around 1970s, they were declared not only useless but a hazard to joint clamping (they break, said joint looses tension) and are not approved.

Some years after that, BMW motorcycles specifically prohibited them on their drive shafts.

Yep, I have found them cracked and loose on one side of drive shafts on cars

To this day, equipment continues to come through that has lock washers.


I do a proven fact based things to avoid problems. I don't go to bars (people get killed there a lot), I don't do drugs (that is another area of a lot of casualties) I drive defensively etc.

My retirement account is in the hands of a proven professional who knows what works on the average (and does not tell me I won't suffer pain along the way).


So just because people have done it that way forever, that covers a whole lot of other aspects does not mean its effective, be it praying or lock washers or annealing practices.
 
RC, I backed WAY out of conversations on several subjects simply because of the 'Noise',
Old wives tales, guys that were Uber vocal (and disrespectful),
Guys that admit they did zero testing, and yet insist their 'Torch/Glow' method was the ONLY correct way to do things since they had been doing it that way for 20 years...
The guys that INSIST the are no benefits to annealing, it's all a waste of time, money & effort.

When I got shouted down about posting clean brass annealed differently than brass that was so contaminated it smoked like a chimney I haven't posted about it since...
Shouting down science seems to be the perfered method rather than doing the science for themselves or even accepting a vairable they hadn't thought about before could possibly be present.

When the very idea of learning something offends,
I can't do one little thing for any of those groups, and the posts seem to just make them blow their tops.

For the guys that DO OWN some sort of temperature indicating device (thermocouple & multimeter, templaq, whatever) often find things we talk about to be actual variables that need to be addressed.

I experimented with 'dirty' heat, 'clean' heat, induction heating, both resistance & magnetic induction, and all have different vairables & quirks...

What you are seeing with the 'Annie' isn't uncommon, you just have to be bright enough to notice the vairables, and a method of temperature indication would help you a bunch!

I found you CAN heat the brass so fast with an 'Annie' you don't get complete annealing before you overcook the brass,
I used a ferrite 'C' core and am currently widening & shaping the opening to get a better anneal.

The brass was actually cycling too fast for proper annealing (Rockwell test proven, not guessing),
And by widening the gap in the ferrite the annealing was being fine tuned for specifically what I'm doing the most of (milbrass).

Widening the gap makes the annealer (Annie) LESS EFFICIENT, taking slightly longer but giving a more consistent PROPER anneal.

This can be related to guys using high temp jet torches or mapp gas, when compared to cooler flame torches for slightly longer, giving the annealing PROCESS IN THE BRASS time to fully happen.
Remember, we are waiting for a thermo-molecular PROCESS to happen, not just bang into a present temp...

Now, until I started using a ferrite core, I hadn't banged into the time constraint,
Coiled core induction heated slow enough for the process to happen before I overheated the brass,
The ferrite focused the field so much the brass reached my target temp then started to cool BEFORE the actual thermo-molecular process of annealing was finished.
(One FAST annealer! Much faster than any torch I ever used because of the human reaction time factor, torch heat had to be conservitave)

On review, I now know why the factories use big open induction annealing coils on production lines, to allow the brass TIME and still maintain precise control of the annealing process...
With the power of the units they use, they could literally turn the cases to slag in a couple seconds, but with big open coils the power is unfocused but still very uniform.

You are going to find the templaq a real eye opener!
Keep doing exactly what you are doing, observing, researching & learning!
I look forward to your posting of experiments & results!
 
When someone posts they have been doing a proven ineffective, or worse yet, damaging or degrading practice for 20 years I have to feel sorry for them....

When they turn around and crawl up my butt for showing where they went wrong, and insist I do things their defective way simply because THEY are doing it that way,
That's when I stop feeling sorry for them...

And I read the same Bowman (and Lawson) stuff you did on lock washers!
I read it 10 years earlier when NASA originally produced the results all those articles quote.
NASA quoted the government research article from just after WWI recommending lock washers on certain applications, but way back then the research proved the ineffectiveness of lock washers...
And YUP! They still come on everything....
 
I am new to annealing. I have annealed several thousand cases by now....But still consider myself a novice.

As someone with a PH.D., I can attest that once you head down the rabbit hole of a science, like metallurgy, physics, statistics etc, that you wind up realizing just how ignorant you really are. It is why people specialize. Like medical doctors, some focus on the nervous system, some on cardiovascular, some on the skin.

Handloading is kind of like that. My brother is happy to take the book loads, and pick a charge near the middle He trims only when the cartridge is longer than book vale, doesn't care if they are different lengths. He doesn't anneal, mixes primer lots, brass lots, powder lots, and seats to SAAMI COAL. Most of his loads are 1-1.5 moa.

I on the other hand have at least tried most reloading tricks. Do a lot more case prep, anneal, turn necks etc etc. I made a load for his rifle once, his .375 HH working up the load. My load was about 0.5-0.75 MOA. When I told him all I had to do to get to 0.5 MOA he reminded me most/all of his kills are less than 200 yards .:rolleyes:

What I'm saying is, I think some folks find a method that works well enough for them and there isn't anything wrong with it. The shouting down and ridicule that comes from folks is obviously unnecessary, and likely comes from those folks not wanting to believe there is more to it than they know.
 
I have the temple borrowed from my Brother so will see what those results are inside with a fire case.

I certainly have either missed clues in the past or even glossed over them when the fact indeed were trying to tell me what the problem was (lots of controls, generator, Switchgear)

Somewhere they stay in the hopper though, I don't throw them out with the bath water, they are still there and come back when I refocus why I am not getting an answer that works.

The light comes on and usually followed by something like "you twit" you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble if you paid attention.

So it goes, I clam nothing close to perfection, just that I keep trying.

And I told my brother up front, if he had asked me if the carbon was an issue that affected the anneal, I would have said not but would be interested in the results.

I agree with both of you on the impact, my issue is separate, its money for the setup and space to do it in. I won't fool myself that its not there.

Machinery is funny, it does not care for BS nor politics, though you can fool yourself into thinking it worked because you cussed at it or the Hurricane went away because you were praying.
 
When someone posts they have been doing a proven ineffective, or worse yet, damaging or degrading practice for 20 years I have to feel sorry for them....
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Seems that since I have never had a neck split or become too soft for prop[er tension nor have I had any sort of or a case failure in 20 years I suppose that what I have been doing has neither been damaging, ineffective or degrading.
 
I will be the first to agree that induction heating is more efficient than using a flame. I will also be the first to admit that improperly used both methods are just as inadequate and used properly both can produce excellent results. I built my own annealer. It uses a synchronous motor that holds a constant speed. It uses a regulated flame that is set to heat the brass to 750F in 5 seconds. It is constantly checked with tempilaq on the inside of the neck. Since the process of annealing cartridge cases requires the brass to reach a through temperature of between 700 and 800F the process can have a range. (however small you might like to keep it) I have less than $50 in my annealer and I can process about 200 rounds in 20 minutes or 600 an hour if I just keep the hopper filled. (it only holds 200 30-06 rounds) Once I get the flame regulated I can load the hopper and walk away. I can do some reloading or brass prep or whatever I like for the next 20 minutes. I like that it works well and that I built it myself and that I don't have to continuously babysit it. Machines are supposed to free you up while they do the work. There is no reason, in my mind, to have a machine that needs a slave to feed it. It is not freeing you up to do other things, it's not doing the job.
Is it a lab quality tool? Not even close but it is accurate enough for my hobby.
 
Great discussion guys, lots of good honest info and results. God knows I have played around and experimented with this, always trying to get a better understanding of the variables. One thing not mentioned a lot is the different makes and with that, formulations of brass. Some are similar, some are not. One will cook just right, another will glow like Rudolph the Red Nosed at the same setting. Humidity is another variable, I read a thread where someone found his timing changed summer to winter. Turns out, he had the garage door open in the summer and closed in the winter. He confirmed that variable by cooling or heating the brass in controlled temp and then annealing. I found that true as well. I keep the garage at 65 in the winter and it gets well over that in the summer.
Notice that I don't say anything about the specific makes of brass in relation to the timing. That's because frankly, I think that varies with whom is making what and when for the branders. It would be in my opinion, erroneous to assume it gospel to say whinchester is....X and Rem is Y. I will say this however, the most consistant is Lapua, that is because they do in fact control their brass from start to finish...or is that Swedish?...lol. They make if for some others but no one makes it for them.
 
I am new to annealing. I have annealed several thousand cases by now....But still consider myself a novice.

As someone with a PH.D., I can attest that once you head down the rabbit hole of a science, like metallurgy, physics, statistics etc, that you wind up realizing just how ignorant you really are. It is why people specialize. Like medical doctors, some focus on the nervous system, some on cardiovascular, some on the skin.

Handloading is kind of like that. My brother is happy to take the book loads, and pick a charge near the middle He trims only when the cartridge is longer than book vale, doesn't care if they are different lengths. He doesn't anneal, mixes primer lots, brass lots, powder lots, and seats to SAAMI COAL. Most of his loads are 1-1.5 moa.

I on the other hand have at least tried most reloading tricks. Do a lot more case prep, anneal, turn necks etc etc. I made a load for his rifle once, his .375 HH working up the load. My load was about 0.5-0.75 MOA. When I told him all I had to do to get to 0.5 MOA he reminded me most/all of his kills are less than 200 yards .

What I'm saying is, I think some folks find a method that works well enough for them and there isn't anything wrong with it. The shouting down and ridicule that comes from folks is obviously unnecessary, and likely comes from those folks not wanting to believe there is more to it than they know.
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JH gets very frustrated (I do to, usually not as much but I have had my warnings), that's a shame because I have learned a huge amount from him. We used to have a guy by the name of Bart B that quit participating (shooter). Hate to see it go that way.

In your case (pun intended) your brother told you that his results satisfied his needs, not that he was making the best ammo like you need for your needs.

That's up front and honest. This is different in that the claim is the annealing is doing what it is supposed to and obviously is not.

Where JH gets frustrated is the deniar end. To me that's like saying Global Warming is not occurring. We can argue what is causing it, but that its taking place and at a rapid pace?

I know what it takes to shoot sub MOA let alone sub 5/8 and it is indeed a number of small things and that includes annealing that actually does what its supposed to.

JH has immersed himself into the deep technical end.

So when someone says I have been successful for 20 years and offers not a whit of evidence that there is any science or details to back up the statement, he understandably gets frustrated.

My take is ignore those who don't want to learn though they will chime in, muddy the waters that are hard enough to navigate already.

Its fine to have your own world and reality, just don't inflict it on the world (though inflicting it seems to go with it) That's when the issues start.
 
Great discussion guys, lots of good honest info and results. God knows I have played around and experimented with this, always trying to get a better understanding of the variables. One thing not mentioned a lot is the different makes and with that, formulations of brass. Some are similar, some are not. One will cook just right, another will glow like Rudolph the Red Nosed at the same setting. Humidity is another variable, I read a thread where someone found his timing changed summer to winter. Turns out, he had the garage door open in the summer and closed in the winter. He confirmed that variable by cooling or heating the brass in controlled temp and then annealing. I found that true as well. I keep the garage at 65 in the winter and it gets well over that in the summer.
Notice that I don't say anything about the specific makes of brass in relation to the timing. That's because frankly, I think that varies with whom is making what and when for the branders. It would be in my opinion, erroneous to assume it gospel to say whinchester is....X and Rem is Y. I will say this however, the most consistant is Lapua, that is because they do in fact control their brass from start to finish...or is that Swedish?...lol. They make if for some others but no one makes it for them.
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He would make a good engineer!

I think what he said should be highlighted.

The brass is all different. He has showed me and I have seen that in my brief sole work as well.

So when I talk about the glow issue, that is (in my case) RP.

I do think some is consistent, RP has stayed the same weight across the 5 years I have been checking it and usually its number 2 in the older cartridges .

Newer ones its place on the pantheon changes.

It seems they have a setup or a source for older cartridges that is currently the same, newer cartridges are different. And it could change so the pay attention part and check results applies.

Good news for me is the brass I have he has as well so I can piggy back on what he finds out.

He has some I don't. It was very interesting to see that Lapua acts very differently than the rest. They all did it a bit differently, but Lapua was by itself.

And Humidity for sure, maybe even barometric pressure.

Another one I have to follow up on is PPU (I have it in 06 and 308 partialy)

Its all I have in 7.5 Swiss. Oddly, that seems to be a special European make, the primer pockets are extremely tight.

As it has none of the reported slag or issues with the primer hole, I suspect the 7.5 may be a different stream from regular (match) , but will test and see if I can find a difference.

I have not tested the 308 or the 06, but the 7.5 base is extremely hard, so hard it takes a dedicated effort to (i.e do a kind of crimp removal but to get a slope to the rim so the primers feed in better as well as a primer uniformer step).

While its not scientific I will do the same with Lapua (I have some range p[pickup Lapua that someone blew the primer pocket out of) and the other brass. Sort of a crude hardness test just out of interest.

So, clearly details matter a whole lot.

Never assume on past that its going to stay the same in the future.
 
So when someone says I have been successful for 20 years and offers not a whit of evidence that there is any science or details to back up the statement, he understandably gets frustrated.
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what's even more frustrating is when you use a technique which has been used successfully for many years by world class 1000 yard benchrest shooters. Scroll to the bottom of this article http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html.

Then come over to here and be told what you are going is dangerous and ineffective simply because you have not spent 500 dollars on the latest bench toy. The only difference between my method and theirs is that I have been using a hand held drill instead of one clamped in a vise. Now that is frustrating
 
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Hounddawg,
As long as what you are and have been doing works for you just accept that these guys are not talking about you. They are obviously talking about some backwards klutz that is using a hand held burning stick. I built an automated system but it uses a torch and it too is effective and does a good job. I always assume the guys that the "experts" are talking about is someone else.
Like mom used to say, "how important is it going to be in ten years?"
That has kept me out of many arguments.
 
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